The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?

[JLB]

When I first got saved twenty-seven years ago I think this was largely a doctrine found in charismatic circles. But I see now it has pretty much swept the evangelical church

But if you break down the essence of what you are saying, you will find that the Spirit of God is not sufficient of Himself to lead and guide us into the Truth, like He did with Abraham, or Job, or Enoch or Noah or Jacob.

If a person is to go the the missionary field to get jungle natives saved, that person should make sure that he or she brings many copies of the Old Testament with him, so all the new native converts can learn How God wants them to live by learning from the law of Moses.


For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:14


JLB

You won't get any argument out of me on this.

You don't realize it, but you're not really in much disagreement with me about this subject. I'm being more patient than usual in these kinds of exchanges because I think you just haven't correctly understood what I've been saying.

Brother, I know I'm not in much disagreement with you, I'm validating what you have been saying all along, which is why I am surprised at your contention.

The only thing I'm adding to the equation is obedience, which is the element of both faith and love.

It is the standard of righteousness.

It is what the Church needs to hear, in order to turn from the Lawless mindset She has.

It is they way to get her to turn without trying to bring up the Law of Moses.


JLB


J

 

[Elijah674]

One STILL opts out of the QUOTING the FIRST great Commandment of the two?? Why is that??????

Matt. 22
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the [[first and great commandment]].

For one to lay aside the first GREAT COMMANDMENT & just quote the second commandment is truly tempting the Lord!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

And the law of Moses?? Check this law out...


Acts 15

[1] And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

(THIS IS THE ONLY THING THAT IS BEING CONSIDERED! The Law of MOSES.)

[2] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about [[[this question]]].
...
[4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

[5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, [[[That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses]]].[/b]

[6] And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

(and that is as CLEAR as SUNLIGHT! 'IF' one is SINCERE!?)

[7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

(do you remember Peter's 3 TIME VISION???)

[8] And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[9] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

(now again, the ONLY ISSUE was what???? It was NOT THE LAW OF GOD, but the Gal. 3:19 'ADDED' LAW THAT MOSES PENNED!)

[10] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?[/c]

[11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
[12] Then all the multitude (THE WHOLE CHURCH ibid 4 AS WELL!) kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
[13] And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: (even note that James was the presiding Elder here, not Peter!)

[14] Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

[15] And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
[16] After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:[/b]

[17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
[18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

[19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:


(and this had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ETERNAL GOVERNMENT LAW OF THE UNIVERSE, the Ten Commandments!! James 2:8-12)

[20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

[21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

[22] Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

[23] And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
[24] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

[25] It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,[26] Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[27] We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
[28] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

[29] That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

[30] So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

[31] Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
[32] And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

And friend(s) if you can find the ONLY PORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD SEEN IN THIS CHAPTER, then 'i' know what group of only TWO that you are in! Matt. 6:24 And yes it is known what ONE COMMANDMENT that satan hates the most! Dan. 7:25! REMEMBER THE 7th DAY SABBATH AND KEEP IT HOLY! And this is TODAY STILL the only one that most of the Rev. 17:1-5 are STILL BREAKING! How come, do you have any real idea???? LONG LONG PAST Gen. 6:3's STRIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR ACCEPTANCE!
--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One STILL opts out of the QUOTING the FIRST great Commandment of the two?? Why is that??????

Because keeping the second greatest command is how you fulfill the first greatest command.

It's amazing what some people call keeping the first and greatest command, all the while they violate and trample on the second greatest command, thinking that somehow keeps the either the first or the second greatest command.

'Love your neighbor as yourself' fulfills ALL the commandments of God. Our job is to learn what loving your neighbor as yourself looks like. It's a life long lesson.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When I first got saved twenty-seven years ago I think this was largely a doctrine found in charismatic circles. But I see now it has pretty much swept the evangelical church

But if you break down the essence of what you are saying, you will find that the Spirit of God is not sufficient of Himself to lead and guide us into the Truth, like He did with Abraham, or Job, or Enoch or Noah or Jacob.

If a person is to go the the missionary field to get jungle natives saved, that person should make sure that he or she brings many copies of the Old Testament with him, so all the new native converts can learn How God wants them to live by learning from the law of Moses.


For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:14


JLB

You won't get any argument out of me on this.

You don't realize it, but you're not really in much disagreement with me about this subject. I'm being more patient than usual in these kinds of exchanges because I think you just haven't correctly understood what I've been saying.

Brother, I know I'm not in much disagreement with you, I'm validating what you have been saying all along, which is why I am surprised at your contention.

The only thing I'm adding to the equation is obedience, which is the element of both faith and love.

It is the standard of righteousness.

It is what the Church needs to hear, in order to turn from the Lawless mindset She has.

It is they way to get her to turn without trying to bring up the Law of Moses.


JLB


J

You seem afraid to acknowledge what the Bible so plainly says, that the life of faith, the life of obedience, fulfills the requirements of the law of Moses.

Faith produces love for others. Love for others satisfies and does not violate the law of Moses.

I didn't invent this. This is what the Bible says. But for some reason 'law' and 'works' are the four letter words of Christianity that should never be uttered. I know that's the result of centuries of misguided, uneducated indoctrination. People in the church are simply going on what they've been taught. And taught so effectively that it's hard for them to see the real truth even when they read the Bible for themselves.

 

[Elijah674]

One STILL opts out of the QUOTING the FIRST great Commandment of the two?? Why is that??????

Because keeping the second greatest command is how you fulfill the first greatest command.

It's amazing what some people call keeping the first and greatest command, all the while they violate and trample on the second greatest command, thinking that somehow keeps the either the first or the second greatest command.

'Love your neighbor as yourself' fulfills ALL the commandments of God. Our job is to learn what loving your neighbor as yourself looks like. It's a life long lesson.

Come on guy, you are not telling the TRUTH if that is what you are suggesting about me! But the [[FIRST ]] Commandment is to Love MY LORD and His seventh Day Sabbath is.. for Holy Use + being BLESSED!! And by OBEYING HIM all else falls into place! Mankind was just an after thought. But we all know who it is that you 'seem' to love huh? [NO CONVICTION you say?]
Whatever???

--Elijah

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:14

Recently I have wondered exactly what the NT writers were discussing when they mentioned the Law. Statements like what was made in Romans and in other places appear to only be discussing the Decalogue (the 10 Words of the Covenant) and seem to exclude the 613 or so total laws that were a part of the Israelite Covenant.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One STILL opts out of the QUOTING the FIRST great Commandment of the two?? Why is that??????

Because keeping the second greatest command is how you fulfill the first greatest command.

It's amazing what some people call keeping the first and greatest command, all the while they violate and trample on the second greatest command, thinking that somehow keeps the either the first or the second greatest command.

'Love your neighbor as yourself' fulfills ALL the commandments of God. Our job is to learn what loving your neighbor as yourself looks like. It's a life long lesson.

Come on guy, you are not telling the TRUTH if that is what you are suggesting about me!

Lol, no I'm not suggesting anything about you. Did you forget I said I like you. You don't come across as a hypocritical jerk. I bet you're a pretty stand up guy. Really.

But we all know who it is that you 'seem' to love huh? [NO CONVICTION you say?]

And who would that be?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:14

Recently I have wondered exactly what the NT writers were discussing when they mentioned the Law. Statements like what was made in Romans and in other places appear to only be discussing the Decalogue (the 10 Words of the Covenant) and seem to exclude the 613 or so total laws that were a part of the Israelite Covenant.

In Romans 2, I believe when he says the gentiles don't have the law, Paul means the literal, humanly communicated knowledge of the law of Moses, which includes the Ten Commandments. When the Bible talks about 'the law' I can't think of any place off hand when that isn't referring to what Moses received and recorded for the nation of Israel and which God uses to define the sin that condemns all of mankind, Jew and gentile alike.

 

[JLB]

You won't get any argument out of me on this.

You don't realize it, but you're not really in much disagreement with me about this subject. I'm being more patient than usual in these kinds of exchanges because I think you just haven't correctly understood what I've been saying.

Brother, I know I'm not in much disagreement with you, I'm validating what you have been saying all along, which is why I am surprised at your contention.

The only thing I'm adding to the equation is obedience, which is the element of both faith and love.

It is the standard of righteousness.

It is what the Church needs to hear, in order to turn from the Lawless mindset She has.

It is they way to get her to turn without trying to bring up the Law of Moses.


JLB


J

You seem afraid to acknowledge what the Bible so plainly says, that the life of faith, the life of obedience, fulfills the requirements of the law of Moses.

Faith produces love for others. Love for others satisfies and does not violate the law of Moses.

I didn't invent this. This is what the Bible says. But for some reason 'law' and 'works' are the four letter words of Christianity that should never be uttered. I know that's the result of centuries of misguided, uneducated indoctrination. People in the church are simply going on what they've been taught. And taught so effectively that it's hard for them to see the real truth even when they read the Bible for themselves.

Again, you divert the topic of the thread away from the scripture context, to the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses was given to the children of Israel, for the children of Israel, in the land of Israel.

The scripture that you have emphasized for many month's now is in James 2.

So that is what I am discussing.

The point I have made is obedience is the standard for righteous.

Obedience is what makes faith valid.

Obedience is what differentiates Godly Love from self love.

Obedience is what justifies us before God.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

It is not only the initial faith that saves, but a continual life of faith that reflects a healthy relationship with God.

A person that is continually obeying the leading of Gods Spirit, to bless and serve His people, is a life that shows the Love of God shed abroad in its heart.

It is a fruitful life that glorifies God.

As Jesus said, I only do what I see my Father do.

That is the example that Jesus left us to follow.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Elijah,

The church is full of people who say they love God, and because they do, they go to church, they get involved in church things, etc. They have a form of godliness, as Paul says, but little or nothing beyond that--no power in the transformation of character.

While they're patting themselves on the back for making the tremendous sacrifice of doing their spiritual duty on Sunday morning, they're cussing the guy out under their breath who's beating them to the parking space they wanted, or getting in the way of their speedy exit.

Jeremiah spoke of these kinds of people who supposedly love and worship God:

"4 Do not trust in deceptive words, saying, ‘This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’ 5 For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, 7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.

8 “Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. 9 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, 10 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—that you may do all these abominations?" (Jeremaih 7:4-10 NASB)

You see, the truth is you can't say you love God until you love your neighbor. Until then, John says a person who says they love God but doesn't love their neighbor is just a liar. Basically making 'love for others' the measuring rod of if you love God or not. John never pulled any punches, and neither should we.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

knowledge of the law of Moses, which includes the Ten Commandments.

The crux of my curiousity centers around whether the NT writers spoke in terms of the entire law or just the 10 commandments. How could the gentiles my nature keep the entire law without being specifically directed in the matter considering the breath and depth of the ceremonial and sacrificial parts of it?

 

[Elijah674]

One law is the Lords & the other is the one Moses penned. And actually it is not hard to see the difference? The Rom. 2:14-15 has what is called a heart transplant for these gentile ones! And Moses stuff was all ADDED till Christ came, & it was [finished] is a good way to write it? Which has them called ordinances in most cases. Col. 2:14

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah,

The church is full of people who say they love God and because they do they go to church, they get involved in church things, etc. They have a form of godliness, as Paul says, but little or nothing beyond that--no power in the transformation of character. While they're patting themselves on the back for making the tremendous sacrifice of doing their spiritual duty on Sunday morning, they're cussing the guy out under their breath who's beating them to the parking space they wanted, or getting in the way of their speedy exit.

Jeremiah spoke of these kinds of people who supposedly love and worship God:

"4 Do not trust in deceptive words, saying, ‘This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’ 5 For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, 7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.

8 “Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. 9 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, 10 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—that you may do all these abominations?" (Jeremaih 7:4-10 NASB)

You see, the truth is you can't say you love God until you love your neighbor. Until then, John says a person who says they love God but doesn't love their neighbor is just a liar. Basically making 'love for others' the measuring rod of if you love God or not. John never pulled any punches, and neither should we.

You have IT ALL BACKWARDS!;)
MANKIND was just a [before/knowledge] in ETERNITIE! See Rom. 4:17 last part of the verse.

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

knowledge of the law of Moses, which includes the Ten Commandments.

The crux of my curiousity centers around whether the NT writers spoke in terms of the entire law or just the 10 commandments. How could the gentiles my nature keep the entire law without being specifically directed in the matter considering the breath and depth of the ceremonial and sacrificial parts of it?

It was the Holy Spirit's work. They were OBEDIENT on all that they knew. You do recall even Gen. 6:3 working right beside of Noah?

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You won't get any argument out of me on this.

You don't realize it, but you're not really in much disagreement with me about this subject. I'm being more patient than usual in these kinds of exchanges because I think you just haven't correctly understood what I've been saying.

Brother, I know I'm not in much disagreement with you, I'm validating what you have been saying all along, which is why I am surprised at your contention.

The only thing I'm adding to the equation is obedience, which is the element of both faith and love.

It is the standard of righteousness.

It is what the Church needs to hear, in order to turn from the Lawless mindset She has.

It is they way to get her to turn without trying to bring up the Law of Moses.


JLB


J

You seem afraid to acknowledge what the Bible so plainly says, that the life of faith, the life of obedience, fulfills the requirements of the law of Moses.

Faith produces love for others. Love for others satisfies and does not violate the law of Moses.

I didn't invent this. This is what the Bible says. But for some reason 'law' and 'works' are the four letter words of Christianity that should never be uttered. I know that's the result of centuries of misguided, uneducated indoctrination. People in the church are simply going on what they've been taught. And taught so effectively that it's hard for them to see the real truth even when they read the Bible for themselves.

Again, you divert the topic of the thread away from the scripture context, to the Law of Moses.

But the OP is "The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?"

Faith in Christ manifests itself in love for others. Love for others fulfills all the commandments (Romans 13:9-10 NASB). Faith fulfills the law, not abolishes it. The law is fulfilled by "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6 NIV).

The Law of Moses was given to the children of Israel, for the children of Israel, in the land of Israel.

The system, the covenant, the WAY of the Law of Moses was given to Israel. It's (moral) requirements are universal for all people. 'Do not murder', 'do not steal', 'do not lie', etc. are not only for the nation of Israel. It is the very standard by which the world is condemned as sinners and pointed toward Christ.

The scripture that you have emphasized for many month's now is in James 2.

So that is what I am discussing.

The point I have made is obedience is the standard for righteous.

And that obedience includes the moral requirements of the Law of Moses. James even uses examples from the law of Moses to illustrate the righteousness of obedience which Paul says is summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

Obedience is what makes faith valid.

Yes, obedience validates ones faith as being the faith that justifies (MAKES one righteous). As I've said, obedience SHOWS you have the faith that accesses the cleansing blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. The gift of righteousness is given on the basis of forgiveness, not on the basis of righteous work completed.

Obedience is what differentiates Godly Love from self love.

Godly love for others IS the obedience of faith. What differentiates godly love from self love is the object of the love. Godly love does no harm to it's neighbor (Romans 13:10 NASB).

Obedience is what justifies us before God.

It doesn't justify us as Paul uses that word. He says it's impossible to be justified by doing righteous work (Titus 3:5 NASB). Obedience justifies us in the way James uses the (other) definition of the word--to be SHOWN to be righteous. Obedience SHOWS us to have the righteousness of Christ through the forgiveness of sins.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

Yes, Abraham SHOWED that he believed God, the belief that secured God's declaration of righteousness. His obedience to offer up Isaac is the PROOF and the EVIDENCE that SHOWS he believed what God told him about the promised son, and for which God credited him righteousness--the righteousness we hope for while in this life (Galatians 5:5 NASB).

It is not only the initial faith that saves, but a continual life of faith that reflects a healthy relationship with God.

Yes, you and I both agree that the blood stays applied on our behalf as long as we continue to believe and trust in that blood. Stop believing and it stops ministering on our behalf in heaven. No argument here as you know.

A person that is continually obeying the leading of Gods Spirit, to bless and serve His people, is a life that shows the Love of God shed abroad in its heart.

Right, continually obeying SHOWS that we are continuing in the love of God in us through our continuing faith in Christ. What a continuing obedience can't do is MAKE you righteous. Only having your sins forgiven can do that. Faith is how we access the blood of Christ that does that all by itself apart from works. Only forgiveness can remove unrighteousness. There is no work a person can do that can make a person righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

knowledge of the law of Moses, which includes the Ten Commandments.

The crux of my curiousity centers around whether the NT writers spoke in terms of the entire law or just the 10 commandments. How could the gentiles my nature keep the entire law without being specifically directed in the matter considering the breath and depth of the ceremonial and sacrificial parts of it?

I'd say not the entire old covenant law, just the moral aspects summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Love does no harm to others. I see that as a universal law that God impresses on the hearts of all men to one extent or another no matter what they know, or don't know about the law of Moses. We see the principle in the pagan justice systems of history.

 

[JLB]

Faith fulfills the law, not abolishes it.

Yes. It was the Faith Jesus walked in as He obeyed His Father and by every word that proceeded out of His Fathers mouth, Jesus was able to fulfill all the Law, The prophets and the Psalms, not just Moses Law.

The system, the covenant, the WAY of the Law of Moses was given to Israel. It's (moral) requirements are universal for all people. 'Do not murder', 'do not steal', 'do not lie', etc. are not only for the nation of Israel. It is the very standard by which the world is condemned as sinners and pointed toward Christ.

The Law was added until the Seed... the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenantthat was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

The Law of Moses was temporary.

Godly love for others IS the obedience of faith. What differentiates godly love from self love is the object of the love. Godly love does no harm to it's neighbor

When God sent The Lord Jesus to heal a person and Jesus went and obeyed, He showed by His obedience to God that He loved God and loved His neighbor.

But the OP is "The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?"

The Royal Law began long before the Law of Moses.


JLB

Remember, I am here to be in harmony with you as long as you do what I say, and agree with all that I say.

That way you will have shown your love for me and will have fulfilled the Royal Law.

 

[Elijah674]

Both are teaching error!
--Elijah

 

[JLB]

Both are teaching error!
--Elijah

Thank you brother, for another well spoken and timely word.