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119 Ministries
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I recently ran across 119 Ministries. Are they speaking Truth? Or are they men of whom Paul wrote about in Galatians?
They are those that teach a christian should keep the Law and be circumcised.
They believe that Acts 15 is where Paul lost his aurgument and had to submit to the Jerusalem Council to circumcise.
As proof they say Paul circumcised Timothy in acts 16.
Yes Paul wrote of these in Galatians.
JLB
I recently ran across 119 Ministries. Are they speaking Truth? Or are they men of whom Paul wrote about in Galatians?
Looking at their website, they say we need to keep the Law of Moses.
I read no further, they are wrong.
I think my favorite teaching of theirs is How not to kindle a fire on Saturday.
If you have an electric stove or Gas, its ok because you don't have to "work" to start the fire.
JLB
TOG
Member
I didn't see anything about circumcision, but I did see this in their Faith Statement:
- God's law (Torah) is simply His instructions for all men.
- Yeshua's sacrifice is the only means of salvation from the law of sin and death.
- Salvation is by grace alone through faith.
- Faith is an inward heart (desire) transformation to commit, trust, and believe in His Word (Yahweh) and the Word made flesh (Yeshua), instead of placing our faith and trust in ourselves and the world.
- We believe that if you really believe, commit, and trust (faith) in the Word, that whatever you believe (inward) will manifest itself in your behavior (outward).
- A successful inward transformation of our heart (desire) as faith will always manifest outwardly as obedience to the Word (Yahweh). Thus we are obedient because of our faith which leads to salvation, not vice versa. We believe that faith without works is dead (faith is not real without works as our evidence of our faith). We believe His people are obedient to His Word because of salvation, not to earn salvation.
They do not believe that we have to keep the law to be saved. They believe in keeping the law because that's how God wants us to live. What's wrong with wanting to live the kind of life God wants us to live? Isn't that what we're all trying to do?
The TOG
TOG
Member
I didn't "just skim over". I actually read their entire statement of faith to see what their beliefs are. I doubt anyone else here as bothered to do that. I didn't see anything labled "lighting a fire" or "Acts 15" on their website. I did see a video teaching about the Sabbath. It's nearly 2 hours long. Is that what you were talking about? You want me to watch a 2 hour video to try to find the exact couple of minutes you are referring to and which you don't actually quote, so I won't know if I've found what you're talking about or not? How about a link and a little more information. Then I'll look.
TOG
Member
OK. One at a time. I watched the one about the fire on the Sabbath first. You said in another post:
He didn't say anything about electric or gas stoves in the video. That's your interpretation. Although I haven't heard their teaching on it, I suspect they would say that your interpretation is wrong. Not cooking on the Sabbath is a separate commandment, and using a gas or electric stove would violate that, regardless of the commandment about the fire.
Back to the video... Early in the video (4:45), he asks the question "Why would God not want us to light a fire on the Sabbath?" The rest of the video is basically an attempt to answer that question. He says that the reason is because work is prohibited on the Sabbath and that lighting a fire was, when the command was given, related to work in two ways - 1. It took work to light a fire and 2. Fire was used to do work. The implication is that if it does not take work to light a fire today and if the fire isn't used for work, then lighting a fire isn't a violation of this commandment.
I don't agree with all of what he says, but given the premise that lighting a fire was prohibited because of it's relation to work (the part I don't agree with), his answer is completely reasonable. I don't see why you have a problem with it. Besides, even if he's completely wrong, is this really something that should divide us, or is it something we can overlook and still fellowship with each other as brothers and sisters in Christ?
I will watch the video on Acts 15 and respond to that in a separate post.
The TOG
TOG
Member
I think I already answered this in another thread, but since some may not have read it, I'll say it again here.
We can cause people to work in various ways. For example, if I go to a restaurant and order a meal, then the cook has to cook something he otherwise would not have cooked. I would be causing him to do more work than he otherwise would have done. But turning my lights on will not cause anyone to work any more than they would have anyway. Even if all Christians would turn their lights and electrical appliances off on the Sabbath, nobody would end up doing any less work than they would with all the lights on. The same applies to other utilities. Using public utilities doesn't cause anyone to work. What it does do is make use of the fact that someone is already working on the Sabbath. Orthodox Jews and some others says that this is also wrong, but the Bible doesn't specifically say so. It's really a matter of interpretation.
The TOG
This is justification ..... or observing the law in a matter of degrees.
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
We know the Isrealites were to collect enough manna on Friday to have it for the Sabbath... they is not much room for interpretation just the normal room for justification
TOG
Member
I have to disagree. I believe we should obey the commandments the way they were given and the way they were originally intended to be understood. The commandment says that we are not to cause anyone else to work. Turning on my lights doesn't cause anyone to work, and therefore doesn't violate the commandment. Even Orthodox Jews don't use that as a reason for not using electricity on the Sabbath. They have 2 primary reasons.
- The law says that we are not to light a fire on the Sabbath, and some electrical appliances can be likened to fire, such as electric lights and stoves. Also, some switches produce a small spark when turned on or off, and this spark could be considered a fire.
- By using a switch to turn on a light, you are completing a circuit. It took work to make the circuit, and finishing that work is also considered work, whether it involves a spark or not.
Jews don't have a problem with using cold water on the Sabbath, but they do not allow using hot water. The reason has nothing to do with making people work. When you take hot water from the heater, cold water comes in instead and is "cooked". Cooking is prohibited on the Sabbath.
The TOG
TOG
Member
I've watched the Acts 15 video (http://119ministries.com/videoteachi...gationid=28668). I don't agree with everything that was said, but I do agree with the most important parts. The debate was never about whether the law had been abolished, but about whether keeping the law was necessary to be saved. The decision was that Gentiles are not saved (any more than Jews) by keeping the law, but by faith. As the video points out, there is a seldom-quoted verse that was part of their decision, that states that the Gentile converts would go to the synagogues every Sabbath to learn the law. We do not keep the law to be saved. We keep the law because we are saved. That's the core of what they are saying. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
The TOG
That New Gentile believers should go to a synagog to learn the Law of Moses from unsaved Rabbis?
Jewish Rabbis won't even let a Gentile into a synagog who are not circumcised.
How would new Gentile converts be expected to be discipled by Jewish Rabbis when not one single disciple of the Lord has ever been produced by going to a Jewish Synagog.
For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
Without producing One Disciple.
[/QUOTE]
The most important part is: They have come to the conclusion that Paul was wrong, and that circumcision is a valid New Testament practice, and that the Jerusalem council voted against Paul.
The proof they say is, Paul was forced to abide by the decision of the council and circumcised Timothy, in acts 16.
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9
Adding the Law of Moses to the Gospel for what ever reason is perverting the Gospel.
For what ever reason.
JLB
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Why is this thread in "Announcements"?
TOG
Member
No, by saved rabbis, such as Paul and others like him.
That's today. Acts isn't talking about synagogues in the 21st century, but in the 1st century. Big difference. Christianity started as a sect of Judaism. The first Gentile converts weren't converting to a new religion, but to a Jewish sect. Christians were welcomed in synagogues just like all other Jews.
Not one?
Now Paul and his companions set sail from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia. And John left them and returned to Jerusalem, but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it.”... As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. (Acts 13:13-15, 42-43 ESV)
Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed. (Acts 14:1 ESV)
Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed. (Acts 14:1 ESV)
I didn't hear that in that video. What I heard was that the council agreed with Paul. Paul claimed that Gentiles are saved by faith, and not by keeping the law. That is also what the council decided. Maybe you could provide a quote?
The TOG
Brother these people are saying that Gentile believers should go to a synagog to learn the law of Moses from Jewish Rabbis, that is their belief, that is what they are saying verse 21 means -
For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
This ministry states that they only started off the new gentile converts who are turning to God with a small part of Moses Law to keep, and that they should go to a synagog to learn the rest of Moses Law, so they can learn to keep all of Moses Law.
They certainly did not believe until they heard the Gospel Message, brother.
How would you think they would hear the Gospel message in a synagog that is run by unsaved Jewish Rabbis.
Jewish believers that were saved through the Gospel, would continue to go to a synagog and gather with other believers and share the Gospel with those of the synagog.
They certainly were not saved in a synagog by Jewish Rabbis.
I know what Paul claimed, as well as the conclusion of the council.
Psalms 119 ministries teaches that the New Gentile converts were to go to the synagogs to learn the rest of Moses law.
That Paul had to abide by their ruling and to show that he submitted to the ruling of the Jerusalem council, He circumcised Timothy, which proves that the jerusalem Councill mandated that the new Gentile converts were required to be circumcised.
I don't think you listened to all of the video.
JLB