The Fate of Unbelieving Children

[Deborah13]

IMO do you really think we can put Jesus in the same category with other children. Jesus was the word made flesh and I believe since he was that very Spirit of God in the flesh he would have already had that knowledge in him from birth and did not have to learn it.

What does the Word of God say about Jesus in His youth?
KJVIsa 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey he doth eat, When he knoweth to refuse evil, and to fix on good.
Isa 7:16 For before the youth doth know To refuse evil, and to fix on good, Forsaken is the land thou art vexed with, because of her two kings.
Jesus wasn't born knowing, He learned as He grew up.
All the more reason to know that Mary and Joseph were special people chosen to raise this child.
There is another scripture something like this about Him coming to full stature, if I remember correctly.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I never said they have wicked intentions when they are first born, I said, Yes, I believe some infants can have wicked intentions especially in how they are influenced in their younger years.

Where did I bring up newborns, I used the same word, "infant," where you claimed that some infants can have wicked intentions.

Then you went on to say that only God can know the intents of the heart, yet you believe that infants have the ability to have wicked intentions. How do you know they have this ability?

 

[WIP]

I just got home from work and had to sit down and post this. On my way home, I decided to play an audio Bible to listen to and I chose to listen to the Gospel of Matthew. The following verses literally jumped out of the speakers at me.

Matthew 18 NKJV:
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This is not about Hitler as I used him as an analogy to show how influences in our early childhood development whether they be good or evil can influence us as to be who we become in adulthood.

I am questioning the validity of such an analogy as you are using it to support your argument.

Where in Hitler's infancy was he taught to hate Jews?

He hated the Jews an annihilated them because he was taught they were not even people, but that of filthy pigs.

Did his parents teach him this? Do you actually know anything about the history of Adolf Hitler? It was the culture of Vienna when he moved to 1905 that influenced him to hate the Jews and exalt all things German, and anti-semitism was very prevalent in all the writings of influential German figures such as Martin Luther whom he admired who wrote "The Jews and Their Lies." He even says in Mein Kampf that this was where he first really became an anti-semite though it is likely there was some tendency towards it as it was very prevalent in the wide culture.

Attempts to tie this to his infancy fails though.

Just as Paul persecuted Christians to death, including babies, and even did this in the name of God as this is what he was taught to do and am sure he was conditioned to do so from birth.

Paul was conditioned from birth to hate Christians?.... Tell me... how many Christians were there when Paul was a baby?

Just like the firstborn in Exodus, do you think God should have spared those babies that were not His own? Would not their own hearts become wick4ed towards God because of the influences of others.

So you're claiming that God condemned them for sins they would eventually commit but were prevented from doing?

 

[for_his_glory]

Please consider these thoughts.

First that same scripture says the unbelieving spouse is also sanctified the same way the children are.
Is the unbelieving spouse saved?

Here again if we had more teachings from the OT we would have a better understanding.
Under Hebrew law if the parents of the children were not married under Hebrew law the children were considered to be bastards and could not serve in some positions among the people, such as a priest.
The marriage itself is holy before God.
So in a believer/nonbeliever marriage, the union is holy because of the believer and so are the spouse and the children are sanctified in this union. Those children cannot be considered bastards, to be outside of the Church in any way. They can be the leader of their teen group or any other job the Lord gives them. When they grow up they can be a preacher or whatever. The church cannot ostracize them.

So the whole idea that children somehow if they were to die will be saved because their parent or that their unbelieving spouse will be saved because of their believing spouse is just not true. There is no scripture that I know of that says any such thing. It would be inconsistent with every scripture about individual salvation.

If you see something that you believe I am incorrect about please don't hesitant to bring it to my attention. I am not infallible in any understanding that I may have.

I even have problems at times bringing things across that may be confusing to others and I'm always opened for questioning of what I post. You are right, we are not infallible. You have always presented yourself to me in a pleasing manner when you ask for explanation and I thank you for that.

What it all boils down to is the influences we receive from the time we are born to that of whatever age we start understanding things. God creates us, but doesn't raise us. Just like the firstborn of the Egyptians, God created them and breathed life in them, but yet allowed even the babies to be slaughtered. We can only speculate if they will rise as the Bride of Christ or stand in the judgement of the lake of fire. What would be the age of accountability, especially with those born of birth defects that cause the brain to not be able to function as in rationalization even when they become adults. I do not think there is any right or wrong answers as only God knows the intents of the heart and who are His own.

 

[Deborah13]

This is not about Hitler as I used him as an analogy to show how influences in our early childhood development whether they be good or evil can influence us as to be who we become in adulthood. He hated the Jews an annihilated them because he was taught they were not even people, but that of filthy pigs. Just as Paul persecuted Christians to death, including babies, and even did this in the name of God as this is what he was taught to do and am sure he was conditioned to do so from birth.

Exodus 13:15, Was not the punishment on the firstborn in Egypt when God had all the firstborn killed that were not his. This included newborns. So I have to conclude that not all babies will be with the Lord when they die. JMO

Just like the firstborn in Exodus, do you think God should have spared those babies that were not His own? Would not their own hearts become wick4ed towards God because of the influences of others.

You lost me again, sorry I'm not following at all this time.

Didn't God kill the firstborn of Egypt for a very specific reason?

The deaths of the Apostles were determined by God right?
We all die a physical death because God determined it to be so but that doesn't determine our salvation.

I just got home from work and had to sit down and post this. On my way home, I decided to play an audio Bible to listen to and I chose to listen to the Gospel of Matthew. The following verses literally jumped out of the speakers at me.

Matthew 18 NKJV:
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

What it all boils down to is the influences we receive from the time we are born to that of whatever age we start understanding things. God creates us, but doesn't raise us. Just like the firstborn of the Egyptians, God created them and breathed life in them, but yet allowed even the babies to be slaughtered. We can only speculate if they will rise as the Bride of Christ or stand in the judgement of the lake of fire.

A person's life is determined by the influences that come into their life as an infant? How does this relate to their being accountable for their sins as an infant?

You understand that the death of the firstborns was a judgment not against the infants but against Pharaoh and the people of Egypt who enslaved God's people.

What would be the age of accountability, especially with those born of birth defects that cause the brain to not be able to function as in rationalization even when they become adults.

Some obviously wouldn't ever reach an accountable age due to their mental deficiencies, that is why I and others extend this idea to mentally handicapped people.

I do not think there is any right or wrong answers as only God knows the intents of the heart and who are His own.

If there is something that is true, and something that is not, then there are indeed right and wrong answers to this question. It should be wrong to say that God would condemn the innocent, it would be like comparing God to Moloch whose actions he condemned.

God called those children killed innocent, I believe him.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am questioning the validity of such an analogy as you are using it to support your argument.

Where in Hitler's infancy was he taught to hate Jews?


Did his parents teach him this? Do you actually know anything about the history of Adolf Hitler? It was the culture of Vienna when he moved to 1905 that influenced him to hate the Jews and exalt all things German, and anti-semitism was very prevalent in all the writings of influential German figures such as Martin Luther whom he admired who wrote "The Jews and Their Lies." He even says in Mein Kampf that this was where he first really became an anti-semite though it is likely there was some tendency towards it as it was very prevalent in the wide culture.

Attempts to tie this to his infancy fails though.


Paul was conditioned from birth to hate Christians?.... Tell me... how many Christians were there when Paul was a baby?


So you're claiming that God condemned them for sins they would eventually commit but were prevented from doing?

Can you explain Exodus 13:15 why God had babies slaughtered? Was it because of the wickedness of the Egyptians maybe!!! Even God said the firstborn of the Egyptians were not His as He would only redeem those who were His own. God created them and breathed life into them, so why would He now have them slaughtered.

 

[jasonc]

Can you explain Exodus 13:15 why God had babies slaughtered? Was it because of the wickedness of the Egyptians maybe!!! Even God said the firstborn of the Egyptians were not His as He would only redeem those who were His own. God created them and breathed life into them, so why would He now have them slaughtered.

that maam is symbolic of the Man that died on the cross. an innocent person taking the sins of the sinners upon themselves. God also said that it pleased Him to kill Jesus. I guess jesus went to Hell and is still there? god ordained that an innocent person must die for us all. what is the difference if the baby isn't able to know he or she is a sinner?

 

[for_his_glory]

A person's life is determined by the influences that come into their life as an infant? How does this relate to their being accountable for their sins as an infant?

You understand that the death of the firstborns was a judgment not against the infants but against Pharaoh and the people of Egypt who enslaved God's people.


Some obviously wouldn't ever reach an accountable age due to their mental deficiencies, that is why I and others extend this idea to mentally handicapped people.


If there is something that is true, and something that is not, then there are indeed right and wrong answers to this question. It should be wrong to say that God would condemn the innocent, it would be like comparing God to Moloch whose actions he condemned.

God called those children killed innocent, I believe him.

Why would God say in Exodus 13:15 that the only firstborn that would be redeemed are His own. All the other Egyptian firstborn were killed. Makes no sense to me. Could it be because of the sins of their parents that rejected God that these children would also follow suit. Again I don't know.

If anyone has hard scriptural evidence on this topic I would like to study it.

 

[for_his_glory]

that maam is symbolic of the Man that died on the cross. an innocent person taking the sins of the sinners upon themselves. God also said that it pleased Him to kill Jesus. I guess jesus went to Hell and is still there? god ordained that an innocent person must die for us all. what is the difference if the baby isn't able to know he or she is a sinner?

How can Exodus 13:15 be symbolic of the Man that died on the cross as you put it. Can you elaborate more on that as I'm not understanding what you are implying. Can you post the scripture where God said it pleased Him to kill Jesus?

 

[for_his_glory]

It's getting late here and I need to do a deeper study on this topic so will return at a latter date when I have it all put together. God bless and have a good evening.

 

[jasonc]

How can Exodus 13:15 be symbolic of the Man that died on the cross as you put it. Can you elaborate more on that as I'm not understanding what you are implying. Can you post the scripture where God said it pleased Him to kill Jesus?

its like this, our sins affect others right? the innocent suffer for our sins. if you are drunk, what is likely to happen. you kids become the same. did they deserve that as a judgement? no but you put that upon them. yes they will have to account for that sin but when they are too young to understand your codepency is a generational curse and that seed is planted. that is very much what the cross is about.

note what about the Egyptians boys who didn't die? did they deserve life? NO, but the parents choose to do Passover. that is very much about the cross. that is why I want to do the feast.

isiah 53, the lord was pleased to bruise him. so what did the Lord do to have His father be pleased to bruise him? or what is our sins that had to be placed upon him and God was pleased in that judgment? the later!

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

what was the offering for sins in the levitical manner of sacrifice of animals? death! so there is no other way to see that the Lord wanted to slay his only SON. JN 3:16! he was given to the world to be that perfect lamb.

 

[digging]

The question I would like to ask is what happens when they grow up and become adults? Or do you image them as saying babies forever???

Digging

 

[digging]

The question I would like to ask is what happens when they grow up and become adults? Or do you image them as staying babies forever???

Digging

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The question I would like to ask is what happens when they grow up and become adults? Or do you image them as saying babies forever???

Digging

Do dead babies grow up in this life? Or does God resurrect them only to have them grow up and provide reason for condemnation?

 

[digging]

Do dead babies grow up in this life? Or does God resurrect them only to have them grow up and provide reason for condemnation?

I'm taking about after the resurrection, how do you see things in your mind? Do you see these children as babies forever??

 

[Deborah13]

I'm taking about after the resurrection, how do you see things in your mind? Do you see these children as babies forever??

I try not to see something that I do not see in scripture. That would just be imagination.

 

[digging]

Well we kn

I try not to see something that I do not see in scripture. That would just be imagination.

We know Jesus resurrected the son of a widow and a young girl which would have naturally grown up to become adults. So when I'm reading some of the questions other are asking here It's some what unclear to me what they are seeing in their mind, how they are perceiving these children after they are resurrected?

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

Well we kn


We know Jesus resurrected the son of a widow and a young girl which would have naturally grown up to become adults. So when I'm reading some of the questions other are asking here It's some what unclear to me what they are seeing in their mind, how they are perceiving these children after they are resurrected?

Digging

The son of the widow, the young girl, and Lazarus, were all raised from the dead in their same type of bodies they had before they died and eventually died again.
To me that is very different then a resurrection. Jesus was resurrected, He was not in the same type of body He had before He died.