Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[Gary]

What are some examples of our government commanding us to do things that are forbidden by God?

What are some examples of our government forbidding us to do things that are commanded by God?
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To not speak out against homosexuality for a example, you can get in big trouble for that today. They are trying to force you to except it.

I've been against homosexuality all my life and I've made that belief known. Never got in trouble for it.

And as for accepting it. The government does not have access to the heart. They are not able to control what an individual believes.

Do you have more examples or is this it?
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[jasonc]

Here's Paul quoting the commandments.

Romans 13 - KJV
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Here's James.

James 2 - KJV
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

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rome had the death penalty for crimes commited against the state. did the church teach that the Christian whom killed was exempt from such law? ie murder, etc that were lawfully and moral under god. again what is the sword given to the government for? to act with the wrath of god against those who do evil. while rome was corrupt. paul did teach that one ought to obey her laws. if rome had a reasonable law for death for murder. would and should have the early church broke said law and took haven of those wanted criminals. and btw peter said its a shame to be in prison for such crimes.

and well I guess god lied then and tempted isreal to sin, Joshua et all sinned. killing is killing the fact is god charged men to kill for him. he does it again. arguing that all forms of killing are a sin is simply wrong. romans 13 is clear on that. whom is the appointed avenger of blood for crimes of murder? the government.

and the ylt calls the torah as saying in greek murder.

13 Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,

2 so that he who is setting himself against the authority, against God's ordinance hath resisted; and those resisting, to themselves shall receive judgment.

3 For those ruling are not a terror to the good works, but to the evil; and dost thou wish not to be afraid of the authority? that which is good be doing, and thou shalt have praise from it,

4 for of God it is a ministrant to thee for good; and if that which is evil thou mayest do, be fearing, for not in vain doth it bear the sword; for of God it is a ministrant, an avenger for wrath to him who is doing that which is evil.

5 Wherefore it is necessary to be subject, not only because of the wrath, but also because of the conscience,

6 for because of this also pay ye tribute; for servants of God they are, on this very thing attending continually;

7 render, therefore, to all [their] dues; to whom tribute, the tribute; to whom custom, the custom; to whom fear, the fear; to whom honour, the honour.

8 To no one owe anything, except to love one another; for he who is loving the other -- law he hath fulfilled,

9 for, `Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false testimony, Thou shalt not covet;' and if there is any other command, in this word it is summed up, in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself;'

10 the love to the neighbor doth work no ill; the love, therefore, [is] the fulness of law.

11 And this, knowing the time, that for us, the hour already [is] to be aroused out of sleep, for now nearer [is] our salvation than when we did believe;

12 the night did advance, and the day came nigh; let us lay aside, therefore, the works of the darkness, and let us put on the armour of the light;

13 as in day-time, let us walk becomingly; not in revellings and drunkennesses, not in chamberings and lasciviousnesses, not in strife and emulation;

14 but put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and for the flesh take no forethought -- for desires

the other quote I posted was from the ylt.

 

[jasonc]

What are some examples of our government commanding us to do things that are forbidden by God?

What are some examples of our government forbidding us to do things that are commanded by God?
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in some states as a person with the legal power of marriage refuse gays marriage.unless a gay or lesbians askes me in the army I cant tell them its a sin. if I do, I will be in trouble.

 

[Gary]

btw peter said its a shame to be in prison for such crimes.

Chapter and verse please.
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[jasonc]

Chapter and verse please.
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common sense. people escape prisons. why do you think the roman men in acts were afraid to die when the earth quake? it was become the centurions would execute them for a crime. so the church should harbor them? the book of acts mentions this

13 Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,

2 so that he who is setting himself against the authority, against God's ordinance hath resisted; and those resisting, to themselves shall receive judgment.

3 For those ruling are not a terror to the good works, but to the evil; and dost thou wish not to be afraid of the authority? that which is good be doing, and thou shalt have praise from it,

4 for of God it is a ministrant to thee for good; and if that which is evil thou mayest do, be fearing, for not in vain doth it bear the sword; for of God it is a ministrant, an avenger for wrath to him who is doing that which is evil.

5 Wherefore it is necessary to be subject, not only because of the wrath, but also because of the conscience,

6 for because of this also pay ye tribute; for servants of God they are, on this very thing attending continually;

7 render, therefore, to all [their] dues; to whom tribute, the tribute; to whom custom, the custom; to whom fear, the fear; to whom honour, the honour.

8 To no one owe anything, except to love one another; for he who is loving the other -- law he hath fulfilled,

9 for, `Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false testimony, Thou shalt not covet;' and if there is any other command, in this word it is summed up, in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself;'

10 the love to the neighbor doth work no ill; the love, therefore, [is] the fulness of law.

11 And this, knowing the time, that for us, the hour already [is] to be aroused out of sleep, for now nearer [is] our salvation than when we did believe;

12 the night did advance, and the day came nigh; let us lay aside, therefore, the works of the darkness, and let us put on the armour of the light;

13 as in day-time, let us walk becomingly; not in revellings and drunkennesses, not in chamberings and lasciviousnesses, not in strife and emulation;

14 but put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and for the flesh take no forethought -- for desires

and in acts 16

24 who such a charge having received, did put them to the inner prison, and their feet made fast in the stocks.

25 And at midnight Paul and Silas praying, were singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were hearing them,

26 and suddenly a great earthquake came, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken, opened also presently were all the doors, and of all -- the bands were loosed;

27 and the jailor having come out of sleep, and having seen the doors of the prison open, having drawn a sword, was about to kill himself, supposing the prisoners to be fled,

rome killed the jailors if the inmates escaped. its commonly known ampngst pastors.
only rome then had that sword in their eyes to execute men and women for a crime. that is why the man pilate had to take jesus to the cross. the jews wouldn't be allowed to do it.
suffer as a murderer? what did rome due to non-roman citizens for that crime? oh it was crucifixation. paul was beheaded and peter was cruficified both put to death by the same crime.

 

[Gary]

in some states as a person with the legal power of marriage refuse gays marriage.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Please be specific as I cannot read your thoughts.

unless a gay or lesbians askes me in the army I cant tell them its a sin. if I do, I will be in trouble.

Persecution is a part of the package. If we back down because the world won't tolerate the Gospel, what does that make us? Who cares if we get in trouble.
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[jasonc]

I don't understand what you're saying here. Please be specific as I cannot read your thoughts.

you cant if you see two lesbians say that is a sin and preach the word to them. simple as that. they have to ask you about god or you talk about god to them in another way, be that direct and its going to be a carreer ender if you don't end that type of usage.

ah so god changed his punishement for death? that he doesn't feel that eternal damnation or any sin that is worthy of death isn't.? so show me in romans 1 that is the case. it says all that do such things listed in the torah that were under the death then are still worthy of it.

then he goes on to say that the blood took that. but in romans 13 he says evil is to be punished by the wrath of god by the government. what is evil then? and whom defines it?lets start there



Persecution is a part of the package. where is that in the bible then the church protected murderes and took them in? peter says suffer not as a murder. what did a murder suffer from then? crucifixation

 

[Gary]

btw peter said its a shame to be in prison for such crimes.

Chapter and verse please.

common sense.

That doesn't work for me. You made a claim. Show me from the Word where Peter made that statement.
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[jasonc]

im sorry the sword in context must be dealt with.

13 Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,

2 so that he who is setting himself against the authority, against God's ordinance hath resisted; and those resisting, to themselves shall receive judgment.

3 For those ruling are not a terror to the good works, but to the evil; and dost thou wish not to be afraid of the authority? that which is good be doing, and thou shalt have praise from it,

4 for of God it is a ministrant to thee for good; and if that which is evil thou mayest do, be fearing, for not in vain doth it bear the sword; for of God it is a ministrant, an avenger for wrath to him who is doing that which is evil.

show me where god says or even in his word that he turns around the natural consequences of a crime.? david was forgiven but he paid heavily for his adultery and murder. wives alienated , sons killed by his men, one of them died and god refuses to heal that child.

a theft in the days of the jewish temple and after the cross could be under the jewish law allowed to be killed if he was caught breaking in after dark. where and when did god change that in the bible? when did god change any of the torah? jesus fulifilled but he didn't change it.

 

[Gary]

im sorry the sword in context must be dealt with.


show me where god says or even in his word that he turns around the natural consequences of a crime.? david was forgiven but he paid heavily for his adultery and murder. wives alienated , sons killed by his men, one of them died and god refuses to heal that child.

a theft in the days of the jewish temple and after the cross could be under the jewish law allowed to be killed if he was caught breaking in after dark. where and when did god change that in the bible? when did god change any of the torah? jesus fulifilled but he didn't change it.

The New Covenant.


Please answer the Peter question.
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[jasonc]

That doesn't work for me. You made a claim. Show me from the Word where Peter made that statement.
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well show the roman laws then that would tolerate murder and ignore crimes. sure it was an unjust goverement at times but this wansnt always so. they had a constitution. I seriously doubt they allowed criminals to go free and didn't hunt for them if they saw the need.

 

[Gary]

well show the roman laws then that would tolerate murder and ignore crimes. sure it was an unjust goverement at times but this wansnt always so. they had a constitution. I seriously doubt they allowed criminals to go free and didn't hunt for them if they saw the need.

That doesn't work for me. You made a claim. Show me from the Word where Peter made that statement.

 

[jasonc]

The New Covenant.


Please answer the Peter question.
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really so I can kill you and god wouldn't damn me? its implied if you cant see that, I cant help you rome was a state they had escapees and punishements for slaves that ran away. likely they had laws for aiding criminals.. the new convenant doesn't change the need to repent for the crime you did nor changed the way god felt. if it did then jesus was a liar. he said clearly I have NOT come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

theres a ton of codes that the romans did.

http://www.ancientmilitary.com/roman-law.htm

feel free to show me where rome wouldn't and did some things prior to the cross that were corrupt as it was in the days of the early church. sure It was a goy nation but from what I read it was a lot more just. so you believe in anarchy? that we shouldn't punish men for crimes? if one piece is changes its all changed. a thief could be killed if he was caught at night breaking in. a lying witness was put to death.

 

[jasonc]

I posted what peter said. do not suffer as a criminal would its implied. common sense. should god list every sin we can ponder so that we cant have this debate or god forbid common sense asked to be used. if so then the bible should have included the laws of rome then. all 2000 texts of paper in it. the readers would get the drift and common sense would say well we can do all that isn't against the nature of god.

if paul says im worthy of death for adultery show me where god said im not? or any crime that is worthy of death. a crime commited by hands may be forgiven but that doesn't negate the consequencese. we can't run a society on that. otherwise we negate the reason for having a government. ie if I steal theres no reason to punish me. im saved its been forgiven. if I repent to god then I don't have to answer to men for my sins!

 

[Gary]

I asked you to show me from The Word where Peter made that statement. What is so difficult about posting Book, chapter and verse?

Dancing around the issue is an indication that it is pointless to continue.

Have a good one Jason.

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[Lewis]

Bottom line, Thou Shall Not Kill Or Murder The Innocent

 

[Obadiah]

Maybe a good way to look at it is your goal shouldn't be to kill, but if in defense or in some other situation in which someone dies from your legal actions because you had no other way to stop them from whatever it was that needed stopping, you haven't committed murder therefore haven't violated this commandment. The original language of the commandment (only one word) is generally accepted as to translate to the english word murder, and murder is defined as the intentional and unlawful killing of a human being. If the word "ratsach" (Hebrew) meant all forms of killing, then how could God have instructed the Isrealites to invade cities and kill the people that were their enemies, or for that matter, even to kill animals as sacrifices or condone killing them as food?

 

[Free]

Maybe a good way to look at it is your goal shouldn't be to kill, but if in defense or in some other situation in which someone dies from your legal actions because you had no other way to stop them from whatever it was that needed stopping, you haven't committed murder therefore haven't violated this commandment. The original language of the commandment (only one word) is generally accepted as to translate to the english word murder, and murder is defined as the intentional and unlawful killing of a human being. If the word "ratsach" (Hebrew) meant all forms of killing, then how could God have instructed the Isrealites to invade cities and kill the people that were their enemies, or for that matter, even to kill animals as sacrifices or condone killing them as food?

I have argued in the past that even if we grant that the commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," there is no problem, since the commandment must be understood within the larger context of the rest of Scripture. So when we look at the greater context of Scripture, God does command men to kill. But instead of thinking that is a contradiction, which many do, we need to understand then that God has made distinct lawful or justifiable killing and unlawfull or unjustifiable killing, which is murder.

So even if the commandment is translated as "kill," we properly understand it as "murder" based on the larger context of the entirety of Scripture, and not some blanket statement against all killing.

 

[jasonc]

Maybe a good way to look at it is your goal shouldn't be to kill, but if in defense or in some other situation in which someone dies from your legal actions because you had no other way to stop them from whatever it was that needed stopping, you haven't committed murder therefore haven't violated this commandment. The original language of the commandment (only one word) is generally accepted as to translate to the english word murder, and murder is defined as the intentional and unlawful killing of a human being. If the word "ratsach" (Hebrew) meant all forms of killing, then how could God have instructed the Isrealites to invade cities and kill the people that were their enemies, or for that matter, even to kill animals as sacrifices or condone killing them as food?

you must be a po-po.

 

[Obadiah]

I have argued in the past that even if we grant that the commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," there is no problem, since the commandment must be understood within the larger context of the rest of Scripture. So when we look at the greater context of Scripture, God does command men to kill. But instead of thinking that is a contradiction, which many do, we need to understand then that God has made distinct lawful or justifiable killing and unlawfull or unjustifiable killing, which is murder.

even if the commandment is translated as "kill," we properly understand it as "murder" based on the larger context of the entirety of Scripture, and not some blanket statement against all killing.

Yep, I agree. But since the word "ratsach" can be translated either way (although it's normally translated to murder or the equivalent), why not just say "murder" and avoid the confusion?