A
agua.
Guest
oky doky no worries. It's interesting though when we consider how we know, or don't know, if a person is saved. Jesus showed us that profession alone doesn't necessarily imply true belief.
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(Some) OSASers must believe that God created human robots!
- Thread starter John Zain
- Start date
oky doky no worries. It's interesting though when we consider how we know, or don't know, if a person is saved. Jesus showed us that profession alone doesn't necessarily imply true belief.
Answer my questions and i'll answer yours. Dialogue remember
Here they are again.
1. How do you know Ananais and Sapphira are saved and didn't walk away from their salvation ?
2. Do you say Judas is saved or walked away from his salvation ?
3. If Judas is saved how do you know ?
If you can't answer it's ok just say "I don't know "
I don't know for sure that Ananias and Sapphira didn't walk away from their salvation.
I don't know for sure that Ananias and Sapphira were ever saved in the first place.
Based on the verses in Acts 5:1-10 I believe they were probably saved and involved in the growing Church community at that time.
The church community was being governed directly by the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.
My personal opinion is that Ananias and Sapphira were "baby" Christians that had some wealth and were wanting to contribute to the work of the Lord.
I believe that they wanted to sell some of their property to give to this work, and Satan took advantage of them.
I believe this was a great lesson for the Church in Jerusalem at that time and for us today.
I believe Ananias and Sapphira paid a very expensive price for us to learn this valuable lesson about what the Holy Spirit values.
I for one have been inspired and have walked in the fear of the Lord because of what happened to these two.
I for one personally believe they were saved and are saved today. IMO
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." 5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. 7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?" She said, "Yes, for so much." 9 Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. Acts 5:1-10
JLB
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Do you believe that people who are saved and in Christ Jesus that live their life according to the flesh, will inherit the kingdom of God?
Please consider the scriptures in you answer.
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:1,19
I believe God will do everything to convict and continually bring those who have strayed from the path of righteousness back to Himself, but at the end of the day, if we choose to walk away and continue in a lifestyle practicing the works of the flesh, and die in those sins, then we will not inherit the kingdom of God.
This is for Lord Himself to decide.
Please consider what Paul writes here -
- 1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed. 14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:1-14
For the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul.
Not the beginning of your faith when you are first saved, but the end of your faith!
He who endures to the end will be saved.
Not what happens along the way, if you do well or if you stumble along the way.
It is the end of your faith, if you endure to the end, and if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard.
JLB
JLB
John Zain
Member
You're definitely invited ... as is everyone else!
And it appears that we have more non-OSASers than a year ago.
Praise be to the Lord.
A
agua.
Guest
Nice assessment especially this part !
I don't believe a person who is saved and in Christ will live live their life according to the flesh so it's a difficult question to answer. Like you said with Ananais and Sapphira they possibly were/are saved and fell in one area bringing severe discipline from Yahweh. There's another example of how sin against the brethren may bring such harsh discipline upon believers in 1Cor 11.
1Co 11:30-32 KJV For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
It's an interesting concept OSAS.
.
A
agua.
Guest
I haven't thought about this before really but I'll speculate ok.
1. Why was Peter not sifted as wheat?
This is interesting because at face value it looks to me that Peter was sifted and the chaff became apparent when he denied Jesus 3 times. It sorta reminds me of Job and how his trials drew out his wrong thinking and similarly I reckon Jesus was right there praying for Job as well. Satan also had to ask for permission to harass Job because he had a hedge of protection around him and maybe Yahweh lowered Peter's hedge for a short time as well. I'm guessing people strong in faith have a strong "hedge". Why do you think Peter wasn't sifted by satan ?
2. Why did Satan have the right to enter Judas?
I'm guessing Judas wasn't a believer and had already showed pretty clearly his "daddy was the devil". Judas didn't have a hedge of protection because he wasn't a believer imo and he invited satan in through his gross sin.
Joh 17:12 KJV While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
What do you think ?
Stan1953
Member
Yes I agree, but scripture does, and if someone's salvation is based on what scripture does indicate, then they are saved. Nowhere does scripture support OSAS.
A
agua.
Guest
You'll need to explain what you agree with here and what scripture does. I don't get what you're actually saying aside from the OSAS bit.
Stan1953
Member
agua you only made one assertion, and I agreed with it. The Bible tells us how we know a person is saved. IF they do what Paul teaches in Rom 10:9-10, they ARE saved.
A
agua.
Guest
Oh ok . Yes the Bible says they shalt be saved.
Rom 10:9-10 KJV That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And if a person does that, how do they become unsaved?
By your reasoning, there's a contradiction.
Stan1953
Member
There is no such term as unsaved. You are either saved or you are not. Believers can become apostate.
Deborah13
Member
Are you saying that a person who has, in their hearts, believed as Romans 10:9-10 can only change their position of justification in Christ by no longer believing what they had professed to in 10:9-10? In another words, they must knowingly and willfully reject that salvation?
Not saying that it is your view point but personally, I think this is a valid and scriptural view point.
Charles Spurgeon made a very interesting statement in In Defense of Calvinism....
He basically says that there are scriptures that support Calvinism, which would include OSAS, and there are scriptures that don't. He has to believe them both because they are there, God said them. But it's like there are two parallel lines running through the scriptures and they must converge somewhere but we may not see it this side of heaven.
He also praises John Wesley as a Christian man that the world did not deserve.
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
You're contradicting yourself again.
If a person is apostate, do they still go to heaven?
If not, they become unsaved.
Now which is it?
Stan1953
Member
We chose to become apostate, and there can be many reasons. Once we fall back, we fall back from it all. Justification is a result of our position IN Christ, but if we fall away and chose to no longer be in Christ, then we forfeit all of those things.
Spurgeon believed preaching the gospel was preaching Calvinism. He would not be considered a five point Calvinist today, but I'm also not to concerned with the opinions what other famous Arminianists either.
Stan1953
Member
If you can show how I contradict myself again, I will answer you, otherwise nothing has changed.
You have evaded every question I've asked throughout this thread.
I can see that talking to you is a waste of my time.
Stan1953
Member
So you can't prove your assertion but continue to make them? That sounds like desperation to me.
Deborah13
Member
Thank you, I think that's a clear statement of your position.
I actually know a preacher that believes exactly the same thing.
I respect others views, especially people like Spurgeon, put I don't know of any I always agree with. Some I didn't and now I do, a matter of growing on my part I'm sure. But I will quote someone else because I agree or like what they have said and they say it better than I can.
Spurgeon is interesting, in one of his sermons he respectfully disagreed with both John Gill and Owen, by name.
He was a honest, loving man that preached, as you say, the gospel. "by grace through faith."
I would like to correlate the reason Peter was not sifted as wheat, directly with the topic of this thread and the scriptures that I have presented.
Jesus said - But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail;...
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, Colossians 1:23
Faith is the substance of things hoped for.
Salvation is what we are hoping for.
If we still have faith, we are in the process of hoping for the salvation of our soul.
Peter said - receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9
Paul said it this way - 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Romans 8:22-26
Key phrase - For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
The reality of what we are hoping for, the salvation of our soul, will be realized at the resurrection when we hear these words -
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34
Then and only then will you be saved.
Then and only then will the reality of the salvation of your soul, be fully realized.
Until then you have faith in Christ for salvation.
Until then you are hoping for the salvation of your soul.
I hope and pray that you read carefully what I have written, and please consider what Peter, Paul and Jesus have taught us.
JLB
JLB