Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[FreeGrace]

I explained this already. The work of the believer that gets burned up are the people they placed in the building and household of God who ended up being made up of material that could not withstand the fires of the coming Judgment and were lost. That worker has nothing to show for his labor, his work in the building and field of God. He himself will be saved--assuming he himself is made of that which will pass safety through the coming Judgment--but his work (1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB) will not.

Incorrect. What commentary claims that the "work of the believer" equals people? The work mentioned here is how the word is always understood; what the believer DID. Not the results of that work. You've made a very serious mistake.

The contrast between gold/silver/stones with wood/hay/stubble speaks of the believer's work in the power of the Spirit vs the believer's work on his own. The point is that even though the wood/hay/stubble will be burned up, the believer doesn't lose salvation. Reward is in view.

Yes.....as long as you keep believing. Forever is conditional on continuing to believe to the very end of this age. This is what scripture plainly says.

LOL. "plainly says". I keep asking for those verses, but none have been provided. It seems there is confusion over what Scripture actually SAYS vs what it MEANS. I'm sure you are convinced that the Scriptures MEAN that salvation can be lost, but there are NO verses that actually SAY that.

...but which I'm showing is easily refuted by knowledge of the full counsel of scripture.

Where is the refutation? In fact, I've used the whole counsel to refute your view; by showing that rewards can be lost, which you have mistaken for loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

"4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. " (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

Misunderstanding again. The writer was speaking of repentance, not faith. They are not the same. Please try again for any verse that says that people are barred from faith again.

Further, even this verse doesn't say anything about being barred. It simply says it is impossible. The reason it is impossible is because of their own choice. As along as they "crucify the Son of God" again and again by their animal sacrifice, they will not repent of that.

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB caps in original)

The author is plainly saying that because of their willful sinning instead of a sacrifice for sins, there is the expectation of God's fiery Judgment--the Judgment that Christ's sacrifice would have rescued them from had it not been for these once sanctified, now ex-believers losing that saving sacrifice through their willful sinning. Now they have to face the Judgement without that sacrifice--or any sacrifice for sin. Ouch....that's scary.

Another misunderstanding. First, there is no "consuming" in the second death. So that is a clue about what the writer is speaking about. What will be consumed? Our bodies, after physical death. So, the author is plainly saying that those who "go on sinning willfully" will experience the sin unto death. God will simply take them home. And many other passages say that such believers will lose out on all eternal rewards.

We don't need to debate the nature of the never-ending punishment that will be doled out to these ex-believers.

First, please be technically correct and call them apostates. That's a Biblical word. And there are no verses that say that apostates will experience never-ending punishment.

As I've shown, since they sinned against the blood of Christ, they no longer have Christ's sacrifice for sin to deliver them from the coming Wrath of God.

No verse says such a thing.

Debating the nature of that punishment doesn't change the fact that they are condemned, not saved.

Those who have believed are NOT condemned. Jesus said so. I'm believing what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace]

Which I've shown not to be OSAS verses.

You've shown no such thing.

Because, as I'm showing, those interpretations simply don't stand up to Biblical scrutiny.

You've shown no such thing.

Obviously, we've been talking about no salvation outside of the New Jerusalem AFTER the resurrection.

This isn't even an issue. It is obvious that all who are in the new earth have been saved.

You're purposely ignoring the scriptures that show when the inheritance, the New Jerusalem comes down you are either holy and living inside it, or you are unholy and living outside of it where there is eternal burning torment and damnation, not salvation.

I've ignored nothing. I've dealt with every verse you've thrown out. And refuted your view every time. But you have ignored the refutation.

 

[FreeGrace]

More empty words...

JLB

Is this a new tactic to dodge the issues?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yep.

Can you quote one verse in the Gospels where Jesus says Lake of Fire, that the Hebrew's readers would have understood?

No, you can't. Yet you just said Heb 10:27 was about the Lake of Fire.

Oh, I see. That must mean the place where Jesus said the unrighteous burn with torment, and the Lake of Fire must be two different places.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, Because
There is no other Savior, no other Redeemer, no other blood that will do, there is no other salvation.

No more sacrifice means the sanctified believer who tramples the blood of Christ through willful sin is now facing the wrath of God that the one and only sacrifice formerly had rescued him from:

"...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)

The connection is unmistakable. No more sacrifice for sin means the terrifying expectation of judgment. But for those believers who don't trample on the one and only sacrifice through willful sin, they wait patiently in a continuing faith for Jesus who rescues them from the wrath of God to come:

"...you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh, I see. That must mean the place where Jesus said the unrighteous burn with torment, and the Lake of Fire must be two different places.

In fact, that is correct. Jesus recounted life in Hades where both Lazarus and the rich man went after physical death. While Lazarus was at peace in "Abraham's bosom", or in Paradise, the rich man was across a wide chasm, in torment. In fact, he asked Abe to send Lazarus over to dip his finger in water to cool off his tongue, because he was "in agony in this flame". Luke 16:24.

The lake of fire is specifically described as the "second death" (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8). Very different from "torments" in Hades, where all the unbelievers go until the Great White Throne judgment of Rev 20:11-15.

 

[FreeGrace]

No more sacrifice means the sanctified believer who tramples the blood of Christ through willful sin is now facing the wrath of God that the one and only sacrifice formerly had rescued him from

Actually, all believers face God's wrath for sin. Rom 13:4, Eph 5:6

"...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)

<sigh>

No one is consumed in Hades or the lake of fire. The verse speaks of physical death as discipline from God.

The connection is unmistakable. No more sacrifice for sin means the terrifying expectation of judgment.

Every believer should fear God's justice. Not because of loss of salvation, but because of being "skinned alive with a whip" per Heb 12:5.

 

[chessman]

Oh, I see. That must mean the place that Jesus said the unrighteous burn with torment and the Lake of Fire must be two different places.

Hebrews 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that is about to consume the adversaries.
​

Why do you redefine "fury of fire" to a place? There's zero justification for doing that. The passage is about fury and judgment, sure. But a 'place', not so.

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. ​

V 28 is clearly a passage that describes the physical death penalty administered by the Jewish leaders/judged if they could get two or more witnesses (as they tried to find some against Jesus). Verse 27 is reminding them (and us) that God can and will physically administer the death penalty too. And He did on several occasions and in 70 A.D. BTW.

As has been pointed out to you, even theologians that teach anti-OSAS doctrines recognize Heb 10 v27 is not about the final post death judgment at the GWTJ.

​

 

[Deborah13]

No more sacrifice means the sanctified believer who tramples the blood of Christ through willful sin is now facing the wrath of God that the one and only sacrifice formerly had rescued him from:

"...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)

The connection is unmistakable. No more sacrifice for sin means the terrifying expectation of judgment. But for those believers who don't trample on the one and only sacrifice through willful sin, they wait patiently in a continuing faith for Jesus who rescues them from the wrath of God to come:

"...you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 NASB)

If one were to turn away from the ONE sacrifice for sin, there isn't any Other sacrifice for sin.....

 

[reba]

Reading this thread and the others like it.... It is so sad to read Christians fighting one another in what it comes down to, in most cases, is verbiage and semantics.
Is this little guy hiding behind a sofa, couch maybe a davenport..

 

[gr8grace3]

Reading this thread and the others like it.... It is so sad to read Christians fighting one another in what it comes down to, in most cases, is verbiage and semantics.
Is this little guy hiding behind a sofa, couch maybe a davenport..

Eternal security is fundamental to the Christian and their growth in Grace and Knowledge of Christ. A believer will not grow in Grace and knowledge if eternal security is not established and metabolized in their thinking. I debate it not to prove that I am right. I do it because Christians are missing out on the completely secure plan God has for their lives.

But most of all, loss of salvation is an affront to Gods immutability, character and Nature. And I will defend Him.

I don't see it as " Christian against Christian" I see it as "message against message"

 

[reba]

I don't see it as " Christian against Christian" I see it as "message against message"

I like that line
although i wonder how those looking on see our family fights

 

[gr8grace3]

I like that line
although i wonder how those looking on see our family fights

Those who WANT the truth will see the truth. If it gets personal and snarky at times I believe the Spirit will guard those who need to be guarded.

 

[chessman]

1 Corinthians 11:19 For indeed it is necessary that there be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may become evident among you. ​

 

[gr8grace3]

1 Corinthians 11:19 For indeed it is necessary that there be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may become evident among you. ​

And It is never about the man. It is about the message that the man is speaking. Impersonal, unconditional love for the man, but the message of the man is to be discerned.

 

[FreeGrace]

Reading this thread and the others like it.... It is so sad to read Christians fighting one another in what it comes down to, in most cases, is verbiage and semantics.
Is this little guy hiding behind a sofa, couch maybe a davenport..

Definitely not about semantics. The issue is what the Bible teaches and means from the verses that were written.

Eternal security vs loss of salvation is not a semantical issue. It is a doctrinal issue. And a very important one, as gr8grace3 has eloquently pointed out.

Just as much, the issue between how many Christ died for is equally important. If Christ had died only for some, which the reformed call the "elect", vs Christ having died for everyone, changes much of how to understand Scripture.

If Christ died only for some, God becomes the determiner of who believes, and no one has any choice in the matter. Only a Calvinist would defend that idea.

So, it's not the semantics, it's the understanding when the whole counsel of God is considered. My approach is to find verses that actually SAY what people claim as true. Many here claim that the Bible "plainly says" that one can lose their salvation. But where are they? The verses provided do NOT say that. They do indicate a loss, for sure. But the word salvation or eternal life is NOT mentioned. So there is a lot of assuming going on by some.

If salvation could be lost, such a huge issue like that would have been clearly stated, such as:
If you lose faith, you will lose your salvation. Or,
If you keep sinning and don't repent, you will lose your salvation.

Those statements very clearly plainly say that salvation can be lost. But there are no such statements in Scripture.

Just as there are no verses that actually say that Christ only for the elect/etc, AND there are verses that actually SAY that He died for all (Heb 2:9), or that He wants everyone to be saved (1Tim 2:4).

Doctrine (truth), not semantics, is the issue.

 

[FreeGrace]

And It is never about the man. It is about the message that the man is speaking. Impersonal, unconditional love for the man, but the message of the man is to be discerned.

 

[gr8grace3]

Definitely not about semantics. The issue is what the Bible teaches and means from the verses that were written.

Eternal security vs loss of salvation is not a semantical issue. It is a doctrinal issue. And a very important one, as gr8grace3 has eloquently pointed out.

Just as much, the issue between how many Christ died for is equally important. If Christ had died only for some, which the reformed call the "elect", vs Christ having died for everyone, changes much of how to understand Scripture.

If Christ died only for some, God becomes the determiner of who believes, and no one has any choice in the matter. Only a Calvinist would defend that idea.

So, it's not the semantics, it's the understanding when the whole counsel of God is considered. My approach is to find verses that actually SAY what people claim as true. Many here claim that the Bible "plainly says" that one can lose their salvation. But where are they? The verses provided do NOT say that. They do indicate a loss, for sure. But the word salvation or eternal life is NOT mentioned. So there is a lot of assuming going on by some.

If salvation could be lost, such a huge issue like that would have been clearly stated, such as:
If you lose faith, you will lose your salvation. Or,
If you keep sinning and don't repent, you will lose your salvation.

Those statements very clearly plainly say that salvation can be lost. But there are no such statements in Scripture.

Just as there are no verses that actually say that Christ only for the elect/etc, AND there are verses that actually SAY that He died for all (Heb 2:9), or that He wants everyone to be saved (1Tim 2:4).

Doctrine (truth), not semantics, is the issue.

So true Brother.

Loss of salvation would be a major doctrine if it were true. And would be Very Clear in His word. For Crying out loud, it would put once believers in the Lake of Fire forever and ever......It would be A CLEAR doctrine! Not hidden away in some hard to understand verses or tougher verses.

It would be as clear as Acts 16:31 is about salvation.

 

[reba]

Those who WANT the truth will see the truth. If it gets personal and snarky at times I believe the Spirit will guard those who need to be guarded.

That is down the the same lines as saying i can play on the freeway and God will take care of me.

This on going battle is one i have never been able to scripturally 'pick' a side..

One of the reason for this is the "line he was never really saved"