H
Henry
Guest
Eve777
Come on I am not talking such things as quiting a habbit, I am talking about heart changes that go much deaper that merely stopping some habbit, or trying to live better..
A changes life would include a new found love for God, a new found concern for the lostness of those who do not know God, a new found appritiation for Christian values and church gatherings and so on.
You friend may have stopped doing some things, but he was not changed as you say he remained and athiest and in as much he certainly did not claim to know God.
You are always minimizing what ever I say, which what all Oneness folks do. If I say the standards of holiness do not make anyone holy, you say that I do not believe one needs to be holy, if I say one is saved before being baptized you say that I do not think baptism is important. Bla bla bla....
It is not a changed life that makes you a child of God, it being a child of God that changes a life and it is not by being baprized in water that we are made children of God but by faith in the Lord.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received HIm, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name; who were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, but of God.
Oh boy here we go, I have to teach you what the scripture says, but I am sure that you are not going to listen. But I am given the duty by God so I must at least try.
Before you ask this sort of question, you need to read the entire body of text. This questoin is a doctrinal based questoin, that is it asked based on what doctrine teachers assuming the doctrine is correct.
Lets see what the bible says.
Back up to Jesus talking in:
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22   And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
So, these apostles received the Holy Sprit already, before the book of acts even began. So when you say baptized believers who had not received the Holy Sprit you are wrong, and notice that there is no mention of them speaking in tongues here.
Now, you asked your question based on the idea that they had not yet received the Holy Spirit, but here we learn that they indeed had.
Acts 1:4   And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Ok, talking to the same which He already given the Holy Spirit as we already learned, he said go and wait for the gift from the Father. The refence to the water baptism of John is not to indicate that is all they had so far, because then in John Jesus must have missed. It means something else.
Acts 1:8   But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Ok, the power would come upon them for a reason, and that is to witness Jesus to the wolrd, and that is true today as well. The empowerment of the Spirit is ONLY for the witnessing of Christ to the world.
So, they had already received the Holy Spirit (John 20:21) and now they are told go and wait for the promise of the Father, and that power would come on them to bear witness to Jesus.
Did they receive the Holy Spirit twice? Or is this something else going on here. The truth is clear this was an empowerment to preform and task for the Lord. This is not a part of being saved, but something that being told to saved people would happen soon. So they could do the work they are given to do.
Acts 2:1   And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2   And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3   And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4   And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5   And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6   Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7   And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8   And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9   Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10   Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11   Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Here we have what Jesus said coming to pass, they waited and then the power came on them. They spoke the word of God in the many languages of those in ear shot, who so happened to represent the known world at large.
This is very important to note, that on this day they spoke in known earthly languages which were understood by those around them. As we know by the fact they said "every man heard them speak in his own language" and a list of the languages they spoke is given to us.
Anyone that bables some nonesence that is not an realy language is not having a "
'pentecostal' experience.
So, if you have read this far (and I would be surprised) summerizing.
1. In John they received the Holy Spirit when the Lord breathed on them, nothing said about speaking in toungues.
2. They were instructed after to wait for the power of the Holy Spirit, which was for the witnessing of the Lord to the nations.
3. They received power and witnessed the lord by speaking the wonders of the Lord in the languages of the people that were in ears shot, which ended in many conversions.
So, the so called baptism of the Holy Spirit is when the Lord empower a SAVED believer to witness HIm to the world.
That is your evidence, not the tongues but the witness of that person in boldness for the Lord.
Come on I am not talking such things as quiting a habbit, I am talking about heart changes that go much deaper that merely stopping some habbit, or trying to live better..
A changes life would include a new found love for God, a new found concern for the lostness of those who do not know God, a new found appritiation for Christian values and church gatherings and so on.
You friend may have stopped doing some things, but he was not changed as you say he remained and athiest and in as much he certainly did not claim to know God.
You are always minimizing what ever I say, which what all Oneness folks do. If I say the standards of holiness do not make anyone holy, you say that I do not believe one needs to be holy, if I say one is saved before being baptized you say that I do not think baptism is important. Bla bla bla....
It is not a changed life that makes you a child of God, it being a child of God that changes a life and it is not by being baprized in water that we are made children of God but by faith in the Lord.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received HIm, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name; who were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, but of God.
Oh boy here we go, I have to teach you what the scripture says, but I am sure that you are not going to listen. But I am given the duty by God so I must at least try.
Before you ask this sort of question, you need to read the entire body of text. This questoin is a doctrinal based questoin, that is it asked based on what doctrine teachers assuming the doctrine is correct.
Lets see what the bible says.
Back up to Jesus talking in:
John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22   And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
So, these apostles received the Holy Sprit already, before the book of acts even began. So when you say baptized believers who had not received the Holy Sprit you are wrong, and notice that there is no mention of them speaking in tongues here.
Now, you asked your question based on the idea that they had not yet received the Holy Spirit, but here we learn that they indeed had.
Acts 1:4   And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Ok, talking to the same which He already given the Holy Spirit as we already learned, he said go and wait for the gift from the Father. The refence to the water baptism of John is not to indicate that is all they had so far, because then in John Jesus must have missed. It means something else.
Acts 1:8   But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Ok, the power would come upon them for a reason, and that is to witness Jesus to the wolrd, and that is true today as well. The empowerment of the Spirit is ONLY for the witnessing of Christ to the world.
So, they had already received the Holy Spirit (John 20:21) and now they are told go and wait for the promise of the Father, and that power would come on them to bear witness to Jesus.
Did they receive the Holy Spirit twice? Or is this something else going on here. The truth is clear this was an empowerment to preform and task for the Lord. This is not a part of being saved, but something that being told to saved people would happen soon. So they could do the work they are given to do.
Acts 2:1   And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2   And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3   And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4   And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5   And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6   Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7   And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8   And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9   Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10   Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11   Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Here we have what Jesus said coming to pass, they waited and then the power came on them. They spoke the word of God in the many languages of those in ear shot, who so happened to represent the known world at large.
This is very important to note, that on this day they spoke in known earthly languages which were understood by those around them. As we know by the fact they said "every man heard them speak in his own language" and a list of the languages they spoke is given to us.
Anyone that bables some nonesence that is not an realy language is not having a "
'pentecostal' experience.
So, if you have read this far (and I would be surprised) summerizing.
1. In John they received the Holy Spirit when the Lord breathed on them, nothing said about speaking in toungues.
2. They were instructed after to wait for the power of the Holy Spirit, which was for the witnessing of the Lord to the nations.
3. They received power and witnessed the lord by speaking the wonders of the Lord in the languages of the people that were in ears shot, which ended in many conversions.
So, the so called baptism of the Holy Spirit is when the Lord empower a SAVED believer to witness HIm to the world.
That is your evidence, not the tongues but the witness of that person in boldness for the Lord.