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Calvary Chapel Revisited

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All Calvary Chapels are the same in that the pastor has total control.
Wimber challenged Chuck Smith to no avail and so he started the Vineyard.
When things run smooth, everyone is happy.
There are problems listed on google if you dig deep enough.
 
All Calvary Chapels are the same in that the pastor has total control.
Wimber challenged Chuck Smith to no avail and so he started the Vineyard.
When things run smooth, everyone is happy.
There are problems listed on google if you dig deep enough.
If that's how they are run, I guess you are saying the congregation has no power to make changes then? If that's the sad state of affairs with Calvary Chapel, I don't think you have much choice other than to leave.

You said there aren't any real good alternatives in your area, but you have a group of people at Calvary that are your friends. You make it sound like they're a pretty tight group. Is it possibly time to have a talk with God and ask Him if perhaps He wants one of the members of this group to be a pastor of a small home church where this group can not only worship and minister to each other, but also provide that to others who are looking for a better alternative? I'm not one to advocate home churches as necessarily being better than larger organized churches in most cases, but that IS the way many churches start, and your situation sounds like one where it may be the best solution if that's the way God leads. Just make sure you actually do have someone within your group that is actually being called by God to pastor that kind of thing, and not that you are doing it just out of rebellion against what the pastor at Calvary has done. But God does want us to have good and edifying fellowship with each other. Maybe in your case this is the way to do that.
 
If that's how they are run, I guess you are saying the congregation has no power to make changes then? If that's the sad state of affairs with Calvary Chapel, I don't think you have much choice other than to leave.

You said there aren't any real good alternatives in your area, but you have a group of people at Calvary that are your friends. You make it sound like they're a pretty tight group. Is it possibly time to have a talk with God and ask Him if perhaps He wants one of the members of this group to be a pastor of a small home church where this group can not only worship and minister to each other, but also provide that to others who are looking for a better alternative? I'm not one to advocate home churches as necessarily being better than larger organized churches in most cases, but that IS the way many churches start, and your situation sounds like one where it may be the best solution if that's the way God leads. Just make sure you actually do have someone within your group that is actually being called by God to pastor that kind of thing, and not that you are doing it just out of rebellion against what the pastor at Calvary has done. But God does want us to have good and edifying fellowship with each other. Maybe in your case this is the way to do that.
We haven't gotten to that point yet.
But considering that most of these men are in their 70's and 80's, I doubt they will walk away until it gets much worse.
As long as the cool ade doesn't come first.
 
Perhaps that's not the way God is leading then. Or perhaps there are others in the congregation who would want to go this way...

Be careful of what may be in the communion wine! :biggrin2

Edit: Oh, forgot, it's Calvary Chapel. Probably communion grape juice. (Or is it communion kool-aid???:shock)
 
people like to pull to get their way on how things should be done. None of it moved me, what God said do, I did, and nothing extra.
If that's how they are run, I guess you are saying the congregation has no power to make changes then?
I've been thinking this thing through as I go about my day. I love church, and I love the people of God. I've kicked the idea of being a pastor around before and so I think about these kinds of things a lot.

In all honestly, the pastor has the authority to do what he thinks he needs to do. And the structure of the church and it's bylaws, if there are any, determine what he can actually do, and how he can do it. It sounds like he does indeed have a legitimate degree of 'dictatorial' power there. Even when it comes to the money. And so the true answer in this case is to not support him with your finances or attendance if you feel in your heart he is not doing what he should be doing, and not try to change what he's doing outside of simply making suggestions and expressing your own needs.

The truth is, if he is stepping outside of God's will he will lose the support of the true people of God and the church will either fail, or become just another of the world's churches disconnected from the true Spirit of God. We have to have the courage to let that happen if there's really nothing we can do to prevent it other than pray for God's intervention.
 
My husband and I have gone to a couple of Calvary Chapel's in the past. One was great and the other was awful. Unfortunately the one the was good is to far away for us to do anything by visit from time to time. The bad one is very close to us. We used to go there and cry because we knew that God wanted to use that church but there was a spirit there that was standing in the way. We went to the pastor and told him of our concerns (concerns shared by other people in the congregation) and he refused to do anything about it.

Yes I believe that Calvary Chapels are pastor ran churches and the pastor has complete reign over what happens. We decided to leave that church because it was not good for our Christian walks.

I would say, pray about it first before you do anything. Ask the Lord what he wants you to do. If He wants you to stay then he has a reason. Perhaps you should confront the pastor. I don't know, but you need to ask the Lord before you make any move one way or the other.
 
That sure doesn't sound like the Calvary Chapel that I went to as a frequent visitor (Costa Mesa in the 70's). If what you are saying is accurate, I wonder if this is a rogue pastor trying to set up his own little theocracy and needs to be removed by the congregation.

Having been on staff at more than one church in my time, what is disturbing to me (among other things) is his hiding of the finances from congregation members. When you say "We needed $65,000 to fix the A/C and somehow the mortgage went over $90,000" do you mean a mortgage was taken out specifically to fix the air conditioner and you question why it was so much more than the esitimated cost of repairs? This is certainly a question that should be answered to any congregation member that asks it. In fact, there should have been a clear explanation given to the congregation before they even had to ask. I can see valid and proper reasons for this to happen, but it should be clear and out in the open! (For example, it could be a mortgage in the form of a line of credit in which interest is only paid on the amount used, and the higher limit of $90,000 allows a large margin for unanticipated cost overruns, etc.) I take it you are an official member, have actually asked to see the financial records, and have been denied. Or at least you know for a fact that another member has done this... No church I've been involved with has ever hidden their financial records!

When you say he has fired people from the ministry I assume you are talking about paid ministry staff, not non-ministerial staff such as a church secretary, janitor, etc? And firing (as opposed to laying off) implies it was done because of some serious problem with the minister, not just a budget cut or something similar. This is ALWAYS something that the congregation should have a say in, probably through an official vote at an official congregational meeting if it has come to that point. As with anyone else, Matt 18:15-17 should have been followed and presenting the situation to the entire congregation for determination of what action should be taken would have been the last of the three steps if the 1st two failed. Sometimes this can cause splits in a congregation, which is sad. And to avoid this, sometimes church officials will fire someone without congregation approval, or they will force them to resign so they can claim that it was the minister's choice, not theirs. But this goes against Matt18, and using a congregations perceived inappropriate reaction is no excuse for circumventing God's word. Matt 18 applies to all Christians, whether brand new convert or long time pastor.

As far as his changes to the services, well, these things are a pastors prerogative in my opinion. They don't sound like good changes to me, but I'm not a member of that church. The pastor needs to make changes that are beneficial to his congregation, not for his own good or his own advancement of power. If the congregation doesn't like these changes, this is another area that the congregation needs to come together and confront him, and demand changes.

All in all, the easiest way (other than to simply leave) is probably going to be for the congregation to fire the pastor and find a new one that fits their ideas better. A harder way will be to teach the pastor to change his ways and attitudes. Not sure ho you do that with someone who is how you describe this man. It won't be easy. But keep in mind, most churches that fire a pastor also loose at least half of their congregation in the process. And this DOES have real world consequences when it come time to pay the bills out of the reduced income that will result. That may not be right, but it is reality and is something worth considering when choosing whether to fire him or to try to change him.
It is difficult to remove a Calvary Chapel pastor. In the particular case I was in at a Calvary Chapel the pastor owned the building, not the church. When they start a church they are in complete control. They own everything and control everything. At least that is the way it was at the Calvary Chapel I went to.
 
It is difficult to remove a Calvary Chapel pastor. In the particular case I was in at a Calvary Chapel the pastor owned the building, not the church. When they start a church they are in complete control. They own everything and control everything. At least that is the way it was at the Calvary Chapel I went to.
Wow! Really! In that case then I guess the only option is for the congregation to pack up and leave.

Although in many cases this may have been the only way to buy a church building. Here in Washington where I live, if a congregation buys a building on a mortgage, each and every member of the congregation has to be a co-signer on the mortgage and in the case of a default each member can and will be held responsible to pay off the loan. (I used to be a Realtor and had a congregation for a client that wanted to buy a building of their own but needed to finance it. That's how I ended up finding this out. I never was able to get them a building.) Of course the reality is that the mortgage company who was foolish enough to make this kind of a loan will now go after whoever has the most money in the bank and sue them personally to start, then work their way down until they are satisfied. The reality is that most mortgage companies here won't mortgage a church building for an entire congregation because it's just too risky, and if things go bad and they don't want to look like the bad guys by going after individual church members. So a pastor starting a new church that actually wants his church to own the building either has to qualify for the loan and sign for it himself, or his new congregation needs to have enough cash built up to buy the building outright without financing. Usually neither option is viable, but this could explain why a pastor could also be the sole owner of the church building if he'd had the financial means to do this. So there possibly are legitimate reasons for this, but that doesn't make it a good idea. It's something I've never seen personally and I think it's way to easy for abuse to creep in if this is done. I would never join a church where one person had that much power over everyone else, even if he was the pastor.
 
It doe
Wow! Really! In that case then I guess the only option is for the congregation to pack up and leave.

Although in many cases this may have been the only way to buy a church building. Here in Washington where I live, if a congregation buys a building on a mortgage, each and every member of the congregation has to be a co-signer on the mortgage and in the case of a default each member can and will be held responsible to pay off the loan. (I used to be a Realtor and had a congregation for a client that wanted to buy a building of their own but needed to finance it. That's how I ended up finding this out. I never was able to get them a building.) Of course the reality is that the mortgage company who was foolish enough to make this kind of a loan will now go after whoever has the most money in the bank and sue them personally to start, then work their way down until they are satisfied. The reality is that most mortgage companies here won't mortgage a church building for an entire congregation because it's just too risky, and if things go bad and they don't want to look like the bad guys by going after individual church members. So a pastor starting a new church that actually wants his church to own the building either has to qualify for the loan and sign for it himself, or his new congregation needs to have enough cash built up to buy the building outright without financing. Usually neither option is viable, but this could explain why a pastor could also be the sole owner of the church building if he'd had the financial means to do this. So there possibly are legitimate reasons for this, but that doesn't make it a good idea. It's something I've never seen personally and I think it's way to easy for abuse to creep in if this is done. I would never join a church where one person had that much power over everyone else, even if he was the pastor.[/QUOT
I'm not sure why the pastor owned this church or why he had so much power. It was a strange church that's for sure. My husband and I didn't go there for very long. He was a good preacher but there was a lot of other stuff going on that wasn't right.
 
I wouldn't "attend" one either, or do any of the other terms that imply I am associated with them in any way.
That's pretty radical deciding not to ever go to a church.
I always figured that those who aren't going to church now would if they found one that they liked.
 
That sure doesn't sound like the Calvary Chapel that I went to as a frequent visitor (Costa Mesa in the 70's). If what you are saying is accurate, I wonder if this is a rogue pastor trying to set up his own little theocracy and needs to be removed by the congregation.

Having been on staff at more than one church in my time, what is disturbing to me (among other things) is his hiding of the finances from congregation members. When you say "We needed $65,000 to fix the A/C and somehow the mortgage went over $90,000" do you mean a mortgage was taken out specifically to fix the air conditioner and you question why it was so much more than the esitimated cost of repairs? This is certainly a question that should be answered to any congregation member that asks it. In fact, there should have been a clear explanation given to the congregation before they even had to ask. I can see valid and proper reasons for this to happen, but it should be clear and out in the open! (For example, it could be a mortgage in the form of a line of credit in which interest is only paid on the amount used, and the higher limit of $90,000 allows a large margin for unanticipated cost overruns, etc.) I take it you are an official member, have actually asked to see the financial records, and have been denied. Or at least you know for a fact that another member has done this... No church I've been involved with has ever hidden their financial records!

When you say he has fired people from the ministry I assume you are talking about paid ministry staff, not non-ministerial staff such as a church secretary, janitor, etc? And firing (as opposed to laying off) implies it was done because of some serious problem with the minister, not just a budget cut or something similar. This is ALWAYS something that the congregation should have a say in, probably through an official vote at an official congregational meeting if it has come to that point. As with anyone else, Matt 18:15-17 should have been followed and presenting the situation to the entire congregation for determination of what action should be taken would have been the last of the three steps if the 1st two failed. Sometimes this can cause splits in a congregation, which is sad. And to avoid this, sometimes church officials will fire someone without congregation approval, or they will force them to resign so they can claim that it was the minister's choice, not theirs. But this goes against Matt18, and using a congregations perceived inappropriate reaction is no excuse for circumventing God's word. Matt 18 applies to all Christians, whether brand new convert or long time pastor.

As far as his changes to the services, well, these things are a pastors prerogative in my opinion. They don't sound like good changes to me, but I'm not a member of that church. The pastor needs to make changes that are beneficial to his congregation, not for his own good or his own advancement of power. If the congregation doesn't like these changes, this is another area that the congregation needs to come together and confront him, and demand changes.

All in all, the easiest way (other than to simply leave) is probably going to be for the congregation to fire the pastor and find a new one that fits their ideas better. A harder way will be to teach the pastor to change his ways and attitudes. Not sure ho you do that with someone who is how you describe this man. It won't be easy. But keep in mind, most churches that fire a pastor also loose at least half of their congregation in the process. And this DOES have real world consequences when it come time to pay the bills out of the reduced income that will result. That may not be right, but it is reality and is something worth considering when choosing whether to fire him or to try to change him.
Costa Mesa was a very special congregation back in those days.
 
My pastor is a dictator.
He won't change.
He's trying right now for more power moves.
I won't leave the church.
What should I do?

I left a church that I was very fond of, very committed to, worked hard for, had many friends there. All my friends remained my friends. The church folded a few months after I left. The Pastor and his wife were exposed, having extramarital affairs. They divorced. The Pastor left the ministry. He was a "control freak" as well. A master manipulator. It was one of the few times I've 'heard' an audible voice telling me to leave, in advance. My wife had a similar confirmation. So, we gelled our data, and bye bye. I appreciated the "tips" in retrospect, but took a LOT of first hand scorn from a few Bible thumpers who came to my face and condemned me to possible hell for leaving the group. I'll never forget those Pharisee's as long as I live.

A few of the elders were also caught up in the scandal, and a few of them divorced as well.

Divine Scattering. It's a very powerful thing.
 
I love the way our church is. Loving and kind. Even in the small things in life they care. We used to attend a church though I am friends with them a lot of them. My parents felt like they belong as they did not belong really to a church we have attended for thirty years. It was hard for all of us to leave. As all of our family attended. Now we are in separate churches.
 
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