Catholic Propaganda Calling Christians False Christians

[Orthodox Christian]

PS. You state that you were an evangelical prior to becoming an orthodox; were you saved prior to or as an evangelical or after you joined the orthodox?

I am being saved.

 

[Solo]

Your integrity is slipping ortho.

Not so- but at least it can be said of me that I have integrity to lose.

You only cut and paste portions of my quotes that serve your underhanded purpose

.
I didn't quote you in toto because you prattle endlessly when asked a simple yes/no question

Heidi is on the money with all of the posts that I have read from her. You might want to be a little more careful on how you attempt to teach, for what I see, Heidi has a much better approach in teaching than you. The love of Jesus shows through her much more than it does others.

Thanks for this unsolicited and ridiculous Fundie jingoism.

Your desire was for a simple yes or no answer to align with your false teaching. I was attempting to show you where you were misunderstanding the scriptures again, but alas and alak you ignore the scriptures again. You are in a continuum of constant derision beholding only to yourself in the mirror of flesh-endowed favoritism. Keep hugging your own preciousness apart from the truth of God's word and you will continue prating with those that hold the gospel of Jesus dear to their hearts, and in the end you will know the error of your way.

 

[Solo]

PS. You state that you were an evangelical prior to becoming an orthodox; were you saved prior to or as an evangelical or after you joined the orthodox?

I am being saved.

How are you being saved?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

PS. You state that you were an evangelical prior to becoming an orthodox; were you saved prior to or as an evangelical or after you joined the orthodox?

I am being saved.

How are you being saved?

By enduring to the end Mark 13:13
By calling on His Name Acts 2:21
By His life Romans 5:10
Through the testing of my work 1 Corinthians 3:15
By continuing in faith, love, holiness and modesty 1Timothy 2:15
By works done in faith, and faith that produces works James 2:14-18

I am being saved by the Lord. I was saved by His death and resurrection, I am being saved by His life, and I will be saved as He preserves me in obedience to the end. Each of these tenses is found in scripture, and to only cite past tense is just plain unbiblical.

 

[Solo]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":b5c55]

PS. You state that you were an evangelical prior to becoming an orthodox; were you saved prior to or as an evangelical or after you joined the orthodox?

I am being saved.

How are you being saved?

By enduring to the end Mark 13:13
By calling on His Name Acts 2:21
By His life Romans 5:10
Through the testing of my work 1 Corinthians 3:15
By continuing in faith, love, holiness and modesty 1Timothy 2:15
By works done in faith, and faith that produces works James 2:14-18

I am being saved by the Lord. I was saved by His death and resurrection, I am being saved by His life, and I will be saved as He preserves me in obedience to the end. Each of these tenses is found in scripture, and to only cite past tense is just plain unbiblical.[/quote:b5c55]
Thanks for the answer.
What does the following verses of scripture mean to you:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their F32 sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Hebrews 10:12-18

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":f7e9f]

PS. You state that you were an evangelical prior to becoming an orthodox; were you saved prior to or as an evangelical or after you joined the orthodox?

I am being saved.

How are you being saved?

By enduring to the end Mark 13:13
By calling on His Name Acts 2:21
By His life Romans 5:10
Through the testing of my work 1 Corinthians 3:15
By continuing in faith, love, holiness and modesty 1Timothy 2:15
By works done in faith, and faith that produces works James 2:14-18

I am being saved by the Lord. I was saved by His death and resurrection, I am being saved by His life, and I will be saved as He preserves me in obedience to the end. Each of these tenses is found in scripture, and to only cite past tense is just plain unbiblical.

Thanks for the answer.
What does the following verses of scripture mean to you:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their F32 sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Hebrews 10:12-18[/quote:f7e9f]

Here's what I wrote before

I was saved by His death and resurrection

The sacrifice of Christ for sin will not be repeated, nor need it be. If you read the whole chapter, it becomes quite clear: In the Old Covenant, a man would need to make periodic animal offerings to atone for his sins. In the New Covenant, forgiveness for sin is not conditional on the shedding of blood anew. Rather, repentance, confession and faith in Jesus Christ, His life, and His work result in forgiveness, healing, and restoration.

Some will no doubt say "you added confession to faith, and faith alone will be accredited to us as righteousness."
Correct- and incorrect
James 5:16
Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This has fallen out of vogue with many who believe that it's all just between them and Jesus. But look what King David said:

Psalm 32:3
When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

The principle is humility: God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

None of that above is a pitch for confession to a priest, just an acknowledgement of what the scripture clearly states.

Regarding repentance:

When Peter had denied Christ and had fallen, he needed be restored. He was publically redressed by Christ before the other Apostles (John 21:15-17).

'Saved' is what we are when we accept Christ's sacrifice and put our trust in Him. Saved is what are being when we continue to 'work out' our salvation by remaining in trust and faith with Him, and obey Him. Saved is what we will be if we endure the end.
For scripture references to each of these, refer to my last post-it's very clear.

 

[Solo]

Thank you for a great answer.
At what point does the Holy Spirit indwell one who believes?
Are all members of the Orthodox Church being saved? Why or why not?
Are there any being saved outside of the Orthodox Church, such as Baptists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Assembly of God, Non-denominational, etc. ?

 

[Heidi]

PS. You state that you were an evangelical prior to becoming an orthodox; were you saved prior to or as an evangelical or after you joined the orthodox?

I am being saved.

So what is it that causes you to be saved, Orthodox? :o It certainly can't be Christ's death because he died 2,000 years ago and you're saying that wasn't enough. So what is it? Your wonderful intelligence, and wisdom? or maybe your holiness and righteousness? That's what the Pharisees thought also. ;-) If you can lose your salvation, then you're saying that your salvation depends on you instead of Christ, are you not? So what in the world did Jesus die for? :o

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Thank you for a great answer.
At what point does the Holy Spirit indwell one who believes?
Are all members of the Orthodox Church being saved? Why or why not?
Are there any being saved outside of the Orthodox Church, such as Baptists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Assembly of God, Non-denominational, etc. ?

At what point does the Holy Spirit indwell one who believes?

I think we both know the scriptures:
Gal 3:2
Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ.
Eph 1:13
In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Eph 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Are all members of the Orthodox Church being saved?
Yes and no.
yes:
By placing themselves within the worshipping community, they are being 'sanctified,' in the sense that an unbelieving spouse is 'sanctified' by a believing spouse. 1 Corinthians 7:14.
no:
This does not refer to the ultimate, eternal salvation unto God, but an opportunity.
Not all that call themself by His Name will be saved- many will say to Him in that day "lord, Lord..." and He will, as He said, declare to them that He never knew them.
Are there any being saved outside of the Orthodox Church, such as Baptists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Assembly of God, Non-denominational, etc. ?
I've covered this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:
There is a difference of opinion on this matter within the Orthodox communion. I happen to hold the following view, excerpted from this
source

...John Karmires[8] believes that, since the concept extra ecclesiam nulla salus does not originate from the scripture, it lacks a basic and central characteristic of an Orthodox doctrine (although it has been taught by many Church Fathers). He considers this concept, rather, to be an exhortation to safeguard the unity of the Church against schisms and heresies; he suggests that it should be studied in its historical context. He further explained this concept as suggesting that there is no salvation in the heretical or schismatic churches as independent and self‑sufficient entities. Thus, the members of these churches who have been baptized and who live a just life may be saved; there may even exist people of God who are or will be saved, although they are not recognized as Christians. Karmires advocates that Church members may be considered in a broader, mystical and invisible way people of other Christian churches ‑ and even other religions ‑ since God's grace is not limited to those who are members of the canonical Church; it extends to all people that God desires to save.[9]

Reflecting on the same matter, Metropolitan Damaskinos[10] of Switzerland takes the whole argument a step further. He calls on the Orthodox Church to re‑evaluate its understanding of its relationship to other Christian churches and religions by affirming all those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour as Church members.[11] Referring to those churches which claim to be present manifestations of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church - I presume he has in mind Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism - he states that they must search for and recognize as churches in the full sense of the word "church" those Christian communions which exist beyond their canonical boundaries. This should be done of course wherever possible and should lead into eucharistic communion (which presupposes unity in the faith and church structures of the apostolic tradition). His remarks, here, are particularly significant for ecumenism. He implies that those churches which claim to be in continuity with the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church should recognize each other as manifestations of the one Church and that they should proceed further to recognize other Christian communions as churches ‑ provided that they adhere to the same apostolic faith and the structure of their churches are in continuity with the apostolic tradition. This presupposes, however, that all Christians ‑ including the Orthodox ‑ can transcend their fanaticism and, being filled with Christ's love, may search, find and recognize as brothers those who live beyond their canonical boundaries. Towards this goal, he thinks that it would be helpful if the bilateral dialogues develop models of unity for the greater advancement of the Christian Church unity.

The scriptures would lead one to both place great importance on unity and Godly authority, and yet God remains unfettered to save those whom He will ("I will show mercy upon whom I will show mercy").

So, my short order is yes. I anticipate the next question, which is "why is it then necessary for others to be of your communion?" My reply is a question: Did Jesus not pray that we be One, and does not Paul say that there is One faith, One baptism, One Lord? And further, what sort of witness to the world is this obvious disunity?

And that says nothing of the issues of authority, sacraments, and the like. I leave those out because they will digress from the simplest and straightest answer to the question I asked in your stead: Division is grievous, if it not be righteous division. I for one am not convinced that the present divisions are righteous.

 

[Heidi]

If a person has not changed after receiving the Holy Spirit, then he has not received it because the bible says we become a new creation in Christ. Paul is a classic example of that. But many people think they've received the Holy Spirit because someone else told them they were supposed to have. But "by their fruits you will know them."

 

[Orthodox Christian]

PS. You state that you were an evangelical prior to becoming an orthodox; were you saved prior to or as an evangelical or after you joined the orthodox?

I am being saved.

So what is it that causes you to be saved, Orthodox? :o It certainly can't be Christ's death because he died 2,000 years ago and you're saying that wasn't enough. So what is it? Your wonderful intelligence, and wisdom? or maybe your holiness and righteousness? That's what the Pharisees thought also. ;-) If you can lose your salvation, then you're saying that your salvation depends on you instead of Christ, are you not? So what in the world did Jesus die for? :o

I think you need to deal with the scripture that I have posted for each statement that I made before we move on to your philosophical objections to my stated theology.

Here they are, in case you missed:
I am being saved

• By enduring to the end Mark 13:13
  By calling on His Name Acts 2:21
  By His life Romans 5:10
  Through the testing of my work 1 Corinthians 3:15
  By continuing in faith, love, holiness and modesty 1 Timothy 2:15
  By works done in faith, and faith that produces works James 2:14-18

Feel free to make your argument with the scripture by means of scripture. I will respond to nothing else from you until you do.
Thanks
James

 

[Solo]

Thank you for a great answer.
At what point does the Holy Spirit indwell one who believes?
Are all members of the Orthodox Church being saved? Why or why not?
Are there any being saved outside of the Orthodox Church, such as Baptists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Assembly of God, Non-denominational, etc. ?

At what point does the Holy Spirit indwell one who believes?

I think we both know the scriptures:
Gal 3:2
Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ.
Eph 1:13
In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Eph 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Are all members of the Orthodox Church being saved?
Yes and no.
yes:
By placing themselves within the worshipping community, they are being 'sanctified,' in the sense that an unbelieving spouse is 'sanctified' by a believing spouse. 1 Corinthians 7:14.
no:
This does not refer to the ultimate, eternal salvation unto God, but an opportunity.
Not all that call themself by His Name will be saved- many will say to Him in that day "lord, Lord..." and He will, as He said, declare to them that He never knew them.
Are there any being saved outside of the Orthodox Church, such as Baptists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Assembly of God, Non-denominational, etc. ?
I've covered this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:
There is a difference of opinion on this matter within the Orthodox communion. I happen to hold the following view, excerpted from this
source

...John Karmires[8] believes that, since the concept extra ecclesiam nulla salus does not originate from the scripture, it lacks a basic and central characteristic of an Orthodox doctrine (although it has been taught by many Church Fathers). He considers this concept, rather, to be an exhortation to safeguard the unity of the Church against schisms and heresies; he suggests that it should be studied in its historical context. He further explained this concept as suggesting that there is no salvation in the heretical or schismatic churches as independent and self‑sufficient entities. Thus, the members of these churches who have been baptized and who live a just life may be saved; there may even exist people of God who are or will be saved, although they are not recognized as Christians. Karmires advocates that Church members may be considered in a broader, mystical and invisible way people of other Christian churches ‑ and even other religions ‑ since God's grace is not limited to those who are members of the canonical Church; it extends to all people that God desires to save.[9]

Reflecting on the same matter, Metropolitan Damaskinos[10] of Switzerland takes the whole argument a step further. He calls on the Orthodox Church to re‑evaluate its understanding of its relationship to other Christian churches and religions by affirming all those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour as Church members.[11] Referring to those churches which claim to be present manifestations of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church - I presume he has in mind Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism - he states that they must search for and recognize as churches in the full sense of the word "church" those Christian communions which exist beyond their canonical boundaries. This should be done of course wherever possible and should lead into eucharistic communion (which presupposes unity in the faith and church structures of the apostolic tradition). His remarks, here, are particularly significant for ecumenism. He implies that those churches which claim to be in continuity with the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church should recognize each other as manifestations of the one Church and that they should proceed further to recognize other Christian communions as churches ‑ provided that they adhere to the same apostolic faith and the structure of their churches are in continuity with the apostolic tradition. This presupposes, however, that all Christians ‑ including the Orthodox ‑ can transcend their fanaticism and, being filled with Christ's love, may search, find and recognize as brothers those who live beyond their canonical boundaries. Towards this goal, he thinks that it would be helpful if the bilateral dialogues develop models of unity for the greater advancement of the Christian Church unity.

The scriptures would lead one to both place great importance on unity and Godly authority, and yet God remains unfettered to save those whom He will ("I will show mercy upon whom I will show mercy").

So, my short order is yes. I anticipate the next question, which is "why is it then necessary for others to be of your communion?" My reply is a question: Did Jesus not pray that we be One, and does not Paul say that there is One faith, One baptism, One Lord? And further, what sort of witness to the world is this obvious disunity?

And that says nothing of the issues of authority, sacraments, and the like. I leave those out because they will digress from the simplest and straightest answer to the question I asked in your stead: Division is grievous, if it not be righteous division. I for one am not convinced that the present divisions are righteous.

I am relieved that you believe that one can be saved without being an Orthodox Church member. Thank you for your intelligent answers. I will ramble on for a bit now in addressing the oneness that believers should have together with God. Forgive me for not replying immediately, I have been studying, posting short answers to other posts on two boards, and spending time with my family.

As far as your question posed.
Yes, Jesus prayed to the Father that the believers be one. It is interesting that the Bible teaches that God must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth by faith, and Jesus says in this prayer that believers be sanctified through the truth, the word. It reminds me of when satan tempted Jesus to make a loaf of bread, and Jesus told him that man doesn't live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Jesus also says in this prayer that those that will come to believe by the word that they be as one also. It is apparant in this scripture that the work of the believers is to proclaim the word of truth so that individuals may believe in God and Jesus Christ.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. John 17:11-26

Paul speaks of the unity of believers in Ephesians. The body of Christ is not edified by men living in their fleshly old man nature, but instead is made up of those that have been born of the Spirit and have the new creature which is currently spiritual until the resurrection of the dead. The body of Christ was divided as Paul taught just 30 short years after Jesus prayed that prayer.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

Contentions existed in the early gathering of believers because of the human nature, the old man. Notice that Paul exhorts the believers to speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among them. He recognizes that some say they are of Paul, some say they are or Apollos, some say they are of Cephas, and Paul is of Christ. Christ is not divided. Christ was crucified not Pope John Paul II. Christ was crucified not the Orthodox Priests. Christ was crucified, not Martin Luther. Christ was crucified, not the pastors of the Anabaptists and Waldeneses.
The thing that divides people from being in unity at oneness with God through Jesus is their inability to cut through the fleshly traditions and desires and replace these with the simple love of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

I know that you and I differ on what salvation is and how one receives it. I was born again at 28 years old after hearing the gospel presented. I have had a completely new outlook and understanding on life since. I was amazed at the truth of the Word of God. I wondered where all of this life had been hiding for the last 28 years. It was exciting to understand that the only begotten son of God was actually God himself. I did not know this prior to my belief in Jesus Christ. I was born again justified until the day of redemption, sealed by the Holy Spirit, embarking on a life of sanctification through the transformation of my worldly mind into the mind of Christ Jesus, awaiting his return for the glorification of my new immortal, incorruptible body.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Ephesians 4:13

The Church of the firstborn are those that are written in heaven, the spirits of just men made perfect.


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:22-23

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I am relieved that you believe that one can be saved without being an Orthodox Church member. Thank you for your intelligent answers. I will ramble on for a bit now in addressing the oneness that believers should have together with God. Forgive me for not replying immediately, I have been studying, posting short answers to other posts on two boards, and spending time with my family.
No need to apologize at all.

As far as your question posed.
Yes, Jesus prayed to the Father that the believers be one. It is interesting that the Bible teaches that God must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth by faith, and Jesus says in this prayer that believers be sanctified through the truth, the word. It reminds me of when satan tempted Jesus to make a loaf of bread, and Jesus told him that man doesn't live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Note there that the Greek term translated 'word' is rhema, which is not the graphe (scripture) that one might expect...though I believe graphe is necessary daily, and the means through or the measure against which rhema is compared. Rhema essentially means living word. IE, we need to hear God every day, this is our bread. Graphe scripture tests the truth of rhema word and revelation, and should bind us, not divide us, as you mention below
Jesus also says in this prayer that those that will come to believe by the word that they be as one also. It is apparant in this scripture that the work of the believers is to proclaim the word of truth so that individuals may believe in God and Jesus Christ.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. John 17:11-26
This passage, I never really saw it before, but the diction and pattern of verses 11-19 reminds me somehow of Psalm 119- not too surprising, since He authored it, or rather inspired it.

So, having His word, we yet see His word today dividing, rather than uniting. Or is it the word that causes division, or its interpretation, or both?
I will reply to the remainder of this post in a short while....

 

[Orthodox Christian]

(continued)
Paul speaks of the unity of believers in Ephesians. The body of Christ is not edified by men living in their fleshly old man nature, but instead is made up of those that have been born of the Spirit and have the new creature which is currently spiritual until the resurrection of the dead. The body of Christ was divided as Paul taught just 30 short years after Jesus prayed that prayer.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

Contentions existed in the early gathering of believers because of the human nature, the old man. Notice that Paul exhorts the believers to speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among them. He recognizes that some say they are of Paul, some say they are or Apollos, some say they are of Cephas, and Paul is of Christ. Christ is not divided. Christ was crucified not Pope John Paul II. Christ was crucified not the Orthodox Priests. Christ was crucified, not Martin Luther. Christ was crucified, not the pastors of the Anabaptists and Waldeneses.
The thing that divides people from being in unity at oneness with God through Jesus is their inability to cut through the fleshly traditions and desires and replace these with the simple love of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

I know that you and I differ on what salvation is and how one receives it. I was born again at 28 years old after hearing the gospel presented. I have had a completely new outlook and understanding on life since. I was amazed at the truth of the Word of God. I wondered where all of this life had been hiding for the last 28 years. It was exciting to understand that the only begotten son of God was actually God himself. I did not know this prior to my belief in Jesus Christ. I was born again justified until the day of redemption, sealed by the Holy Spirit, embarking on a life of sanctification through the transformation of my worldly mind into the mind of Christ Jesus, awaiting his return for the glorification of my new immortal, incorruptible body.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Ephesians 4:13

The Church of the firstborn are those that are written in heaven, the spirits of just men made perfect.


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:22-23

I think you stated it well: we don't agree on some key issues. We needn't be disagreeable in our disagreement, but full unity cannot be realized between us in this present situation. Only God can do this, and I for one cannot imagine how there can be reconcilliation between some views in Christendom that are as far apart as East is from West.

I am convinced of the reality of a visible, united Church, not just an invisible one.
There is "One Faith, One Baptism, One Lord..." The oneness there is the oneness of unity, not of numerical value only.

So we have point alpha, where we are, to point omega, where we end.