Critical Thinking, doubts, annoyances and frustration.

[Westergaard]

As of late I have been having more and more unanswered questions regarding:
1. Christianity fundamentals and the old testiment
2. Other religions
3. My annoyance of christians blind in faith and hypocrypsy
This is lengthy, I have tried to break it down in parts for easier reading. Allow me to explain:

I am 21, in college. Very well educated, brought up in a christian home and a very logical and critical thinker. I have always been a christian, still am but questioning my certain aspects of christianity. So far everyone I have talked to me before dislike the though of questioning their faith, which I believe to be complete and utter garabage. How would one expect someone else (lets take scientologist as an example) to not reject their silly fiction novel fantasy by questioning the truth in it and become a christian when they themselfs cannot question what they believe? Would you not be just as blind as they?

Anyways, now that I have clarified my questioning as a healthly matter there are some thing that have been bugging me in scripture, mostly referring to old testiment, which I have seen no good answers to.

1
Deutoronmy and Leviticus both have some very outdated rules, yet bits and pieces are used frequently when people are trying to argue varius points. Picking and choosing what you believe in there is not acceptable, or women will now have to keep there mouth shut in church, cheating, blaspheme, curing your parents and witchcraft is sentacable by death. Also (my favorite), 'No one who has there testicals crushed shall go to heaven'. The stuff is outdated and has no place in the bible for how dear people hold it to heart. Many laws which show how you should treat your slaves to follow.

But wait, there is more crazy stuff that doesnt make sense. Lets pull out my favorite bedtime story. 2 Kings 2:23 to 24. Elisha is mocked for being bald, Elisha asks god for some help. God sends 2 bears to maul 42 youths. Harsh.

Now we move on to the mass geonocide. Canaanites? Kill them all, women and children too. Couple Benjamites raped the priests girl? Slay every last one of them. People are inheriantly evil, so lets flood the world but a dozen or so. And many more...

Lets just focus on one of these to trying and make some sense of it. Noah and the arc because I hate what sunday school made it out to be. People were sinning and needed to be punished. Like any father should correct there children so they grow up right, thats fine. But kill them all save a handful? One of the largest basic morals on which we stand on is forgiveness. The 2 ends are not meeting up. I hear countless scripture and songs on how 'The lord is slow to anger, and quick to love' and wants a deep personal relationship with all of us. I also know that according to Malachi, god never changes. Where was the forgiving personal relationships then?

2
The other religion argument, please note I am using the Muslim faith only as one of many religions to argue with. If you are born in a christian home or culture (canada/us) the idea of christianity is familier, accepted and for a non believe to join any givin religion because they feel a spiritual calling would be christianity. If someone came up to you as a christian and they said 'You are wrong, Alaha is the true god' no one here would think twice about those words and forget it.

Does the exact same not hold true then for other cultures? If you grew up in an arab country your father and mother, family and culture would be towards muslim. If someone came up to you as a muslim and they said 'You are wrong, Jesus is the only way to heaven' no one here would think twice about those words and forget it.

According to scriputer everyone will have a chance to hear about Jesus... but if Christianity is right how fair is that choice to that muslim growing up on the other side of the word? that person should suffer hell because you got lucky where you were born and they were not?

Equally as much, we are many are dead set in there beliefs just as much as that person from the other side of the world. Both could use just as much scripture from their own bibles to try and prove the other wrong but it would go know where. Unless people have taken a very open approach and studied multiple religions (I know I have done research) how do most christians get off the hook cause they got lucky and picked the right one?

3
Christians blind in faith, it frustrates me to no extent. Science and faith, they work together. Anyone who believes otherwise is clinging onto faith without understanding, researching or opening their mind to why. I see christians pick and choose what science to believe. They are willing to accept vastly complicated pieces of electorics in there hand but you mention that the earth is dated billions of years old and they claim those scientist to be satanits, claiming it is impossible to be older then 6000. (Even though the earth 'day' wasnt made till gods 4th period of doing stuff) These are the exact same people, that if we went back in time, would yell at Galilleo as a heritic because he said the earth was not the center of the universe.

The many many science/faith things are just part of my frustration. I have dropped out of both my study/alpha/prayer type groups because of people and prayer. Every group I have ever been in has been just sad in any type of prayers that I have seen. They pray for a fence to be fixed, then pick up a hammer, god gave you hands. They pray for good grades, then go study, you were born with a brain. They prayed they wouldn't have to do vacumming. It was hummilating. I have yet to meet people praying about anything and act apon it themselfs. Prayer without action is useless, its somewhere in the bible.

Lastly, hypocropsy and misteachings. I hear countless stories about people teaching illogical things, I have groaned over countless political hate (yes hate) from christian groups because they disagreed with something they believed. I have had senior members of my old church tell people not to pray in there head as only god can hear you then and not the devil. (The devil relies on audible sound, I missed that verse). And the most annoying thing is anything remotely good happens, praise god. Anything goes wrong, the devil is at fault!!! Things in life happen, get over it. The devil is not in your spilt milk.




If you read through everything, good on you, reply to what you would like to. I can referance anything if needed, please ask.
~The always questioning christian

 

[azlan88]

b]1[/b]
Deutoronmy and Leviticus both have some very outdated rules, yet bits and pieces are used frequently when people are trying to argue varius points. Picking and choosing what you believe in there is not acceptable, or women will now have to keep there mouth shut in church, cheating, blaspheme, curing your parents and witchcraft is sentacable by death. Also (my favorite), 'No one who has there testicals crushed shall go to heaven'. The stuff is outdated and has no place in the bible for how dear people hold it to heart. Many laws which show how you should treat your slaves to follow.

Israeli women weren't as educated as men in those days, so Paul was afraid that if a woman spoke up to ask questions that everybody knew the answer to, it would slow down the sermon that the preacher is trying to communicate. So it's a matter of time, efficient evangelism, and not embarressing the husbands. As for the testacle thing, you have to point that out because I don't remember reading that, but assuming that it's a part of the laws of Moses, we don't have to obey the Law anymore. We now obey what Paul called "the law of the Spirit."

Also, Israeli slavery was really a work contract that lasted a certain number of years. Living conditions for slaves were better for free men because the world was very dangerous, and some men who were poor would sell themselves into slavery so that they would get free housing and money for food later. So Israeli slavery is not what you thought it was.

But wait, there is more crazy stuff that doesnt make sense. Lets pull out my favorite bedtime story. 2 Kings 2:23 to 24. Elisha is mocked for being bald, Elisha asks god for some help. God sends 2 bears to maul 42 youths. Harsh.

The Hebrew word for youths also appears as reference to the soldiers in 1 Kings 20:14-15, so it really should be translated as "young lads", the age ranging between 12 and 30 years old. So we can safely say that these "youths" were young men. The "baldhead" reference is to leaprosy, and the "go on up" part was a reference to how Elija described Heave. In fact, Elija did "go on up" when God took him up to Heaven without him dying! So the young lads were in disbelief and blasphemed. It's clear that this gang of thuggish youths clearly meant to kill Elija, so God saved his life.

Now we move on to the mass geonocide. Canaanites? Kill them all, women and children too. Couple Benjamites raped the priests girl? Slay every last one of them. People are inheriantly evil, so lets flood the world but a dozen or so. And many more...

God does not tolerate rape, but understand that all are guilty of sin, so not even children are innocent. Besides that, it was also humane of God not to let the children starve to death in the desert. God Himself said that if the Jews took the children with them, they would turn the Jews away from God, and this would prevent the coming of Jesus Christ. So what God did was just and necessary.

Lets just focus on one of these to trying and make some sense of it. Noah and the arc because I hate what sunday school made it out to be. People were sinning and needed to be punished. Like any father should correct there children so they grow up right, thats fine. But kill them all save a handful? One of the largest basic morals on which we stand on is forgiveness. The 2 ends are not meeting up. I hear countless scripture and songs on how 'The lord is slow to anger, and quick to love' and wants a deep personal relationship with all of us. I also know that according to Malachi, god never changes. Where was the forgiving personal relationships then?

God sent Noah to warn the otheres of the wrath to come, but they only mocked. God did no wrong.

2
The other religion argument, please note I am using the Muslim faith only as one of many religions to argue with. If you are born in a christian home or culture (canada/us) the idea of christianity is familier, accepted and for a non believe to join any givin religion because they feel a spiritual calling would be christianity. If someone came up to you as a christian and they said 'You are wrong, Alaha is the true god' no one here would think twice about those words and forget it.

Does the exact same not hold true then for other cultures? If you grew up in an arab country your father and mother, family and culture would be towards muslim. If someone came up to you as a muslim and they said 'You are wrong, Jesus is the only way to heaven' no one here would think twice about those words and forget it.

According to scriputer everyone will have a chance to hear about Jesus... but if Christianity is right how fair is that choice to that muslim growing up on the other side of the word? that person should suffer hell because you got lucky where you were born and they were not?

Equally as much, we are many are dead set in there beliefs just as much as that person from the other side of the world. Both could use just as much scripture from their own bibles to try and prove the other wrong but it would go know where. Unless people have taken a very open approach and studied multiple religions (I know I have done research) how do most christians get off the hook cause they got lucky and picked the right one?

God made it clear that He would not save everone. It is written, "Only the remant will be saved." Jesus himself said, "O Jersusalem! Jerusalem! How I often wanted to gather you unde rmy wings like a mother gathers her hens! But you were not willing!" Right now, God is working to reach those who are in remote countries by giving missionaries technology to work with (I attended a service about this). God also has reached a former Al Qaida member through visions, and and another former terrorist throught dreams, so they do get reached.

3
Christians blind in faith, it frustrates me to no extent. Science and faith, they work together. Anyone who believes otherwise is clinging onto faith without understanding, researching or opening their mind to why. I see christians pick and choose what science to believe. They are willing to accept vastly complicated pieces of electorics in there hand but you mention that the earth is dated billions of years old and they claim those scientist to be satanits, claiming it is impossible to be older then 6000. (Even though the earth 'day' wasnt made till gods 4th period of doing stuff) These are the exact same people, that if we went back in time, would yell at Galilleo as a heritic because he said the earth was not the center of the universe.

The many many science/faith things are just part of my frustration. I have dropped out of both my study/alpha/prayer type groups because of people and prayer. Every group I have ever been in has been just sad in any type of prayers that I have seen. They pray for a fence to be fixed, then pick up a hammer, god gave you hands. They pray for good grades, then go study, you were born with a brain. They prayed they wouldn't have to do vacumming. It was hummilating. I have yet to meet people praying about anything and act apon it themselfs. Prayer without action is useless, its somewhere in the bible.

You'll never find Christians who agree with you 100%, and it is frustrating to have to grapple with young earth creationists when the earth is clearly older. It's in these circumstances that you can still love your brethren, and if you want robust discussion with like-minded Chrsitians, you may have to do a bit of digging to find them. I for one agree with you about scientific issues, so if you ever want to get into discussion about these things, I'm here for ya, brother.

Lastly, hypocropsy and misteachings. I hear countless stories about people teaching illogical things, I have groaned over countless political hate (yes hate) from christian groups because they disagreed with something they believed. I have had senior members of my old church tell people not to pray in there head as only god can hear you then and not the devil. (The devil relies on audible sound, I missed that verse). And the most annoying thing is anything remotely good happens, praise god. Anything goes wrong, the devil is at fault!!! Things in life happen, get over it. The devil is not in your spilt milk.


If you read through everything, good on you, reply to what you would like to. I can referance anything if needed, please ask.
~The always questioning christian

If it's THAT bad, then maybe you can find a church that teaches things straight from the Bible instead of jumping to their own conclusions. This will take time, so pray about it. Finally as a word of advice, the New Testament sheds light on the Old Testament, not the other way around. So stop reading the Old Testament. I made the same mistake of only reading the Old Tetament, and it only brought me doubt and confusion. What you need is to read the words of Christ and His saints so that you can grow in your relationship with Christ and strengthen your faith.

 

[Ashua]

Why are these things "out dated"? Because social fashion has changed? If God is the creator of all, then morality is subject to his definition. It is God who declares what is righteous and what is wicked. Just because Western 21st century ideology has moved far away from the eternal code God gave to man for a more "stylish" modern belief does not make it "right"

Its like a boat.

You have an anchor and you stay put. So, you take up the anchor and you slowly drift over time. 10 minutes pass and you're a little more east. a few hours and the spot where you began is where the sea meets the sky. Time does not sanctify modern culture's OPINIONS of morality.

You say that you are a logical critical thinker, but I find in your writing a very common theme among unbelievers. You base your argument not off of LOGIC, but EMOTION. Elisha and the Bears, the "genocide", and the Torah laws.

These are emotional straw men. Why is your perception of right and wrong right and why is the Bible's wrong? Is the Bible out dated, or is humanity that far removed from morality? That is pretty illogical. You are basically saying The Bible cannot be true because you don't agree with it's judgments.

IS GOOD AND EVIL STATIC OR DYNAMIC? ABSOLUTE OR AMORPHIC?


Logic 101

1.)I say "mint blue" is a hideous color.

2.)You love mint blue.

3.)Therefore I do not exist because of my perceived "bigotry" towards mint blue contradicts your "supreme" perception over my own.

That is essentially the whole of your argument.

1.)God of the Bible (The presumed creator) finds homosexuality (for example) to be a corrupted counterfeit of his design.

2.)You find homosexuality to be wonderful.

3.)Therefore God of the Bible does not exist because your opinion nullifies the existential properties of any such belief holder to the contrary.

Yeah, makes perfect logical sense.

 

[Ashua]

Godless morality is amorphic varying from man to man. Because it is subjective and ever changing with cultural and social fashions and trends, it has no true absolute face value.

How can a creator be evil, when good and evil is defined by the creator?

WHO DECIDES WHAT IS GOOD OR EVIL?

If "morality is synonymous with "good and evil" and "right and wrong", then I don't believe that its possible for "morality" to exist based on human implemented parameters. Then is morality "Jenseits von Gut und Boese"?

If there is no God, then "good and evil" doesn't truly exist. If there is no God, then anything goes because "ethics" come and go with the fashion of the ages. Pick a location pick a time. Build a sand castle on the beach and the waves will carry it away by tomorrow. No single man is divinely superior to another in that he has no authority to define what is right and wrong for another: therefore unless there exists a supreme sovereignty over us; we are "laws unto ourselves."

Why is "murder" evil without a legitimate moral governor? "Survival of the fittest", right? In some countries, people eat babies. To those people, there is no evil in this. On what authority do you judge them? by your own standard. As I said, you cannot yoke another man to your "OPINION" of right and wrong because you are no one to do so, as I, or anyone else on earth are.

Now, when bodies of people (governments) decide on LAWS, then there exists a subjective local custom of accepted "morality", but that is not universally binding for all people for all time; and as such, is unstable for tomorrow when it is subject to radical change. Can that which is called "good" cease to be "good" and that which is called "evil" cease to be evil because of the whim of human judgment? To satisfy the lusts of social perception? If we give "humanity" the authority to amend moral law, then humanity has become "god" as a collective immortal unit. According to the will of man shall morality be--Also sprach Zarathustra.

What is evil? It is transgression of righteousness. Only a creator is legitimate to deliver a Modus Operandi to humanity as a WHOLE. A twin has no legitimate authority over his brother to declare what is proper and what is not. Only the parent has the authority over them as their overseer.

Now, when no overseer exists, no moral laws exist. And where there is no law, there can be no transgression. And if there is no transgression, then there is no conviction of the guilt of unrighteousness. If there is no conviction of unrighteousness, then there can be no violation and if there is no violation there is no such thing as evil; for evil is the violation of universal righteousness. Then we are neither moral or immoral, but animals without accountability.
Stop pretending. Stop trying to adorn man as some noble creature. Righteousness and iniquity are but a mirage if man is the author of good and evil.

People play games and act like God is uneeded to define morality for all of mankind; but unless you can tell me one human being who is qualified to define morality for all people for all time, how can you speak?

Even godless philosophers like Nietzsche knew as much. As for society claiming authority to define morality for itself: Der Wille Zur Macht--Even as history is not written by the losers, but the dominate voice is the loudest. You don't need to be religious to grasp the truth of what Im saying--just a brain and the humility to admit it.


I tell you the truth. Except a creator exist, there is no absolute immorality; neither good nor evil. Only perspectives and opinions and ideas--- One man is good in your eyes and evil in mine. Another seems good to me but you would find him evil.

God can NOT be evil because if God exists, he defines evil adverse to his character. The God who authored creation; is not the same the author of morality? If he doesn't exist, there is no such thing and I would advise you start living life in the third person to see why I came to this conclusion.

Q Why is there so much misery in the world?

A Because the world is litred with human beings.

Stop blaming God. Man should learn accountability and accept he is the source of his own agony.

"Liberal" means free, but what they really wish to do, is oppress thought adverse to mainstream 21st century western ideology and mores. Sure, they're all for civil freedom irrespective of the perversion, save when the liberties of one contradict their social doctrine. They see sober-minded men who abhor homosexuality as the aggressor and as such, the villain. What they fail to do is see both sides through a truly unbiased third person perspective. What makes the "victim" philosophy any more valid or just than the "aggressor"? In truth, both sides are the aggressor. To establish one is to deny the other it's rights to be.

This people celebrates the word "diversity"; not that diversity is a "bad" thing, but for the sake of diversity.and nothing else? So we should be people pleasers, forgetting in diverse places come conflict and corruption? I'm not simply talking about ethnic diversity-- no not even just cultural. I'm talking about ideological diversity. It is IMPOSSIBLE. As it is impossible to be a true nonconformist, it is impossible to equally accept all manner of people. Society will celebrate one and wag their finger at the other and never truly be 'open minded', because liberalism is really oppression by contingency.

Tomorrow, men might commonly engage in necrophilia. If you are still alive in such a day, you would probably be "dead" set against it. The generation of tomorrow might see your views as an "outdated" "backwards" "hateful" "wrong" and "bigoted" "obsolete" viewpoint. If right and wrong evolves with every generation, then there is no such thing as right and wrong.

 

[Ashua]

Just to follow up that sentiment:

The Christians of the first century were not of the "christian world". The seven churches addressed in the book of Revelation were in Asian Minor in what is now called Turkey. Europe and North America and South America and all of Asia and Africa were all pagan at the time. The argument of being "born into a religion" is kind of moot.

The first century Christians were born into beliefs in zeus and isis and baal and centuries later, quetzecotl and so on. The patriarch ABRAHAM was born into Mesopotamian paganism. The biblical Ruth was born into the unbelieving world. The BABYLONIAN KING NEBUCHADNEZZAR and I believe THE PERSIAN Cyrus also born into paganism changed from that view.

The truth is, there are Christians from all corners of the globe. there are people in Asia underground right now who if were discovered would be subject to death. There are Christians in the heart of the muslim world. Where you are born may give you a heightened exposure, but its not as if virtually all the world hasnt 'heard' of Jesus Christ.

So, back to the first century gentile believers (and all proselytes of the Old testament) At that time, the ONLY 'location' on the globe people could be born into the religion would have been that sliver of land called Israel.

If you were asking your question 2,000 years ago, would you have believed the expanse of the so called "christian world" one can be "born into"? Its all relative.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and divinity; so that they are without excuse: -Romans 1:18-20

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; -Hebrews 1:1-2

But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul -Deuteronomy 4:29

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13

"Those who never before inquired of Me are now seeking Me out. Nations that never before searched for Me are finding Me. But Israel, though I opened wide My arms in welcome all day long, have rebelled, following their own evil ways and thoughts, insulting Me to My face with their man-made worship, idolatry in the groves, and incense burning on the rooftops of their homes, separating themselves in self-righteous claims to holiness" (Isaiah 65:1-6)

"I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me. Proverbs 8:17

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56

The Law and the Prophets reveal Christ. Virtually the whole world now knows OF Christ. They are without excuse when they refuse to listen to the words of the Gospel.

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Matthew10:14-15