FREE WILL

[Eventide]

I'm sure you know Truth is not up for a vote.

We wouldn't be voting for the truth, but rather for or against your opinion and claim that Adam WAS deceived when the scripture (truth) says that he WAS NOT.

Why don't you start a poll and see how many people will agree with your claim here.. it would probably show you that the majority of Christians here don't agree with your opinion on the matter.

 

[smaller]

Respectfully, the will of each man affects his neighbors, so the circle is applicable, and the two different spirits on display in this circle represent Godly and un godly, light and dark at work in men.

Again you missed the point. A 'will' of any given vessel of dishonor can and does 'cloak' itself with the illusions of good intentions. Take a look at any given Pharisee, Lawyer or Hypocrite for examples.

It is again not merely one neighbor interacting with another.

My scenario, was meant for the childlike mind.

Were that the 'only' will in view you'd have a point. You are welcome to bypass these wills. I have to say we are scripturally factually engaged with the wills below regardless of individual perceptions of same.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

These 'things' we are to be 'against' exist within all of us i.e. in our minds and wills as things that are not us as Gods child.

When Satan spoke from Peter Jesus knew it was not Peter, but Satan.

At what point does one recognize the Spirit of Truth, and also the 'spirit' of error?

These are not the same, but 'both' exist within 'all' people. That is the underscored lesson here. It is not 'just and only' childlike minds. There is an active 'resistor will' within everyone and that will will lie to the end, even while claiming to be a child of God.

Yes the will of man is under higher powers, but I like my scenario and I don't think you share my enthusiasm. What would you add or take away without destroying the simplicity?

I am not inclined to mistake one for the other. No, it is no picnic to state the fact that the mind/will (personally) is subject to the powers of intrusion by and of the wills of darkness that is not us as Gods children.

There you will meet your own enemies head on if you can be truthful about the subject matter. Most can not because it is not Gods children/the will of the vessel of honor in dialog.

Only vessels of honor can be truthful about this particular subject matter and there the Sword makes it's factual determinations based on 1 measure, the ability to 'tell the truth' of this matter, personally.

Disassociation was practiced in Christianity long before it hit the public domains.

No believer 'in Truth' will LIE about the fact that the Tempter operates in their mind and will inclusive of their actions of sin in thought, word and or deed.

This is the dividing line between a believer and a poser.

enjoy!

s

 

[childeye]

=smaller;568355]Again you missed the point. A 'will' of any given vessel of dishonor can and does 'cloak' itself with the illusions of good intentions. Take a look at any given Pharisee, Lawyer or Hypocrite for examples.

Yes, of course these illusions are lies however for which reason the Truth is preached and persecution tolerated.

It is again not merely one neighbor interacting with another.

Those who are corrupted by lies are subject to what they believe is true and subsequently becomes manifest in their actions particularly whether they are Godly or ungodly.

Were that the 'only' will in view you'd have a point. You are welcome to bypass these wills. I have to say we are scripturally factually engaged with the wills below regardless of individual perceptions of same.

I would not disagree. I simply am pointing out, I have not bypassed these wills.

At what point does one recognize the Spirit of Truth, and also the 'spirit' of error?

A good question. The obvious answer is upon revelation and conviction through the Holy Spirit.

These are not the same, but 'both' exist within 'all' people. That is the underscored lesson here. It is not 'just and only' childlike minds. There is an active 'resistor will' within everyone and that will will lie to the end, even while claiming to be a child of God.

Perhaps so, but these things are at least made visible by a Truth that is not impotent to do so.

I am not inclined to mistake one for the other. No, it is no picnic to state the fact that the mind/will (personally) is subject to the powers of intrusion by and of the wills of darkness that is not us as Gods children.

Yes but God does not intrude. He comes in the front door once he has bought the house.

Disassociation was practiced in Christianity long before it hit the public domains.

No believer 'in Truth' will LIE about the fact that the Tempter operates in their mind and will inclusive of their actions of sin in thought, word and or deed.

This is the dividing line between a believer and a poser.

All of this is true, but I can't help but say that there seems to be a hopelessness in your assessment.

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;568350]We wouldn't be voting for the truth, but rather for or against your opinion and claim that Adam WAS deceived when the scripture (truth) says that he WAS NOT.

If my assessment is valid to God or not, still we would be voting on Truth.

Why don't you start a poll and see how many people will agree with your claim here.. it would probably show you that the majority of Christians here don't agree with your opinion on the matter.

Why don't you first understand what was said before you make definitive assumptions based on what you yourself admit you do not comprehend?

 

[smaller]

Yes, of course these illusions are lies however for which reason the Truth is preached and persecution tolerated.

Those who are corrupted by lies are subject to what they believe is true and subsequently becomes manifest in their actions particularly whether they are Godly or ungodly.

The assumption you keep putting in play is that any given person is one or the other when in fact both vessels are in play with every person.

I would not disagree. I simply am pointing out, I have not bypassed these wills.

There are hardly any posters on this board who can attest to the will of Satan operating even minimally as The Tempter (yet alone in actions of external sin) being an exercise of Satan's will within them.

They will all blame only themselves, and that in fact is an exercise of Satan's will openly exposed upon them and controlling them all.

A good question. The obvious answer is upon revelation and conviction through the Holy Spirit.

Do you seriously believe that the will of Satan is influenced to any good or any truth whatsoever? That will never happen, sorry.

When Gods Words are put into play, Satan's wiil 'automatically' comes into the minds/wills of 'all people' to resist/twist same. This is as basic of a Bible principal as there is.

Perhaps so, but these things are at least made visible by a Truth that is not impotent to do so.

I would submit that the principle explained above is absolutely put in play every single time. It is Divine in origination and cause.

Yes but God does not intrude.

Whatever gave you that idea? You seriously believe our own Father and Maker is not intricately involved in every last detail of our lives? I believe He Is in Perfect Control and is The Only One who can be so.

in the end it is not the 'free' will of any 'man' who will extract perfection...Only God can make and create a Perfect Outcome from 'all things' He has deployed with His Creation and will effectively 'do so' beyond any doubt.

He comes in the front door once he has bought the house.

That is not going to be the case with the other wills.

All of this is true, but I can't help but say that there seems to be a hopelessness in your assessment.

Indeed hopeless for all vessels of dishonor and not one whit hopeless for all vessels of honor.

When I dialog with you or any other person, I do understand that I am really in dialog with potentially two (or more) different entities.

When Jesus spoke to the man of the Gergesenses, He was really in dialog with 12,000 demons within the mind and will of that single man.

There is a massive lesson to be learned therein.

enjoy!

s

 

[childeye]

[=smaller;568374]The assumption you keep putting in play is that any given person is one or the other when in fact both vessels are in play with every person.

Yes, but we are in transition and being sanctified accordingly. It is therefore possible to be pure of heart regardless of the power of the air around us. For if depravity was whole the result is madness and perhaps utter death. See the pigs who ran off the cliff.

There are hardly any posters on this board who can attest to the will of Satan operating even minimally as The Tempter (yet alone in actions of external sin) being an exercise of Satan's will within them.

They will all blame only themselves, and that in fact is an exercise of Satan's will openly exposed upon them and controlling them all.

Perhaps so. I do not see their hearts but know there is growth going on by their words.

Do you seriously believe that the will of Satan is influenced to any good or any truth whatsoever? That will never happen, sorry.

You misunderstand. I am refering to the will of the person corrupted by Satan's lies.

When Gods Words are put into play, Satan's wiil 'automatically' comes into the minds/wills of 'all people' to resist/twist same. This is as basic of a Bible principal as there is.

Yes but upon repetition one comes to see the difference and more and more we walk with confidence in Him Whose Truth is in us. The Truth is not impotent.

Whatever gave you that idea? You seriously believe our own Father and Maker is not intricately involved in every last detail of our lives? I believe He Is in Perfect Control and is The Only One who can be so.

Once again, you misunderstand. I am advocating that it is not an intrusion to be set free from the intruder not that God is not involved, since after all He is in fact the light and we are only vessels. So as to say it is not an imposition upon the inner man only to the desires of the flesh.

in the end it is not the 'free' will of any 'man' who will extract perfection...Only God can make and create a Perfect Outcome from 'all things' He has deployed with His Creation and will effectively 'do so' beyond any doubt.

His will be done.

Indeed hopeless for all vessels of dishonor and not one whit hopeless for all vessels of honor.

Intercession is a valid alternative but useless if void of hope.

When I dialog with you or any other person, I do understand that I am really in dialog with potentially two (or more) different entities.

I don't know how to address that. Is it getting too personal too ask you to elaborate?

When Jesus spoke to the man of the Gergesenses, He was really in dialog with 12,000 demons within the mind and will of that single man.

Okay maybe I see what you're saying. Please consider this. God is Truth and as in His character being Holy so that the first commandment is Love God with all you heart mind and soul. Every lie ever invented for man has this prime directive, to undermine this commandment. As God is light, there exist countless directions away from Him in every direction. Subsequently there are many lies that can subvert the first commandment, being not the same in presentation yet all serving the same purpose. So it is that demon entities live in a man according to belief in these lies. Hence there are many lies that can live in one man but only one Truth that can live in all men.

 

[smaller]

Yes, but we are in transition and being sanctified accordingly.

For vessels of honor, true, but as noted that is not all that 'me' consists of. For vessels of dishonor the opposite is just as true and applicable:

Romans 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

In the above the workings of Gods Words of Law is shown to exacerbate sinfulness and that is what happens with 'all' vessels of dishonor which 'all' mankind 'also' have. That is why our collective 'whole world' continues to reel via that exacerbation of sin in all vessels of dishonor.

It is therefore possible to be pure of heart regardless of the power of the air around us.

You are welcome to insulate your insides from this matter, but the fact is that the origination of all evil comes from within, that is 'from the heart' and no one is excused from this factual working 'within.'

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Non external action on any of the above does not mean the evil did not transpire within in the form of 'THOUGHTS.' Christians are assuredly not an exception.

Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

For if depravity was whole the result is madness and perhaps utter death. See the pigs who ran off the cliff.

Why would one look at pigs and miss the Legion of devils therein? I might dare say the pigs died and the devils did not, but sought out yet another 'hiding place' in MEN.

Perhaps so. I do not see their hearts but know there is growth going on by their words.

Indeed...two forms of growth...one good and one not so good.

You misunderstand. I am refering to the will of the person corrupted by Satan's lies.

The fact that you seem to be able to place the operation of temptation within mankind via an entity that is not them/us might also seem to make you able to separate these two workings, one from another?

Temptation and evil are 'all' inner thought matters and are so by Satanic (tempter thoughts) impositions upon all mankinds minds AND will.

This is a fact of scripture that categorically makes all men 'not just man.'

Yes but upon repetition one comes to see the difference and more and more we walk with confidence in Him Whose Truth is in us. The Truth is not impotent.

The Word Sword cuts both ways. Heals and uplifts one and arouses the other to evil.

Once again, you misunderstand. I am advocating that it is not an intrusion to be set free from the intruder not that God is not involved, since after all He is in fact the light and we are only vessels.

Vessels of honor and dishonor react in opposite fashion to His Light, as shown here for example:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The god of this world does not really care to have his temporal body/mind kingdoms intruded upon with with the LIGHT of Gods exposure of 'himself' to be 'with' the people.

Yet this fact remains with few seeing or perceiving to this day, personally. A couple common lies of Satan within christiandom in general is to make his workings 'external' and 'the other people.' But never with ones 'self.'

So as to say it is not an imposition upon the inner man only to the desires of the flesh.

We do not wrestle flesh, but the inserted 'lusts' therein and that is Satanic in origination prompted by The Law.

Intercession is a valid alternative but useless if void of hope.

I find no promises of sinless flesh or mind in the realm of corruption, weakness and dishonor in the text. Do you? That time comes when we pass from the flesh which until then remains 'subject to' the workings of the tempter, always.

I don't know how to address that. Is it getting too personal too ask you to elaborate?

I understand that not my every thought is my own, and derive that understanding from scripture. That's as personal as I care to share as giving glory to the detailed facts of darkness does nothing. It is enough to say that the fact is a fact regardless of the details. Knowing this has helped me make discernments, but it has never stopped the actual working fact nor do I expect it to.

Christians really would do themselves well to understand that by virtue of picking up the texts, we really do at the same time have our 'internal enemies' aroused to action by those same Words. This fact seems to be the most elusive of Christiandom and serves to uphold that fact as a fact in any who deny it happens within them. Denial serves the fact that a liar is assuredly present within that person.

Okay maybe I see what you're saying. Please consider this. God is Truth and as in His character being Holy so that the first commandment is Love God with all you heart mind and soul.

Vessels of honor certainly and naturally 'do that.' I would not expect that same reaction however from vessels of dishonor, meaning DEVILS. Even when they 'claim' that Jesus is The Son of God for example, even while mouthing the words they are STILL LYING.

Why? Because there is 'no truth' in them to be had, found or spoken. <--- This is a fact for 'all' of Satan and devils.

Every lie ever invented for man has this prime directive, to undermine this commandment. As God is light, there exist countless directions away from Him in every direction. Subsequently there are many lies that can subvert the first commandment, being not the same in presentation yet all serving the same purpose. So it is that demon entities live in a man according to belief in these lies. Hence there are many lies that can live in one man but only one Truth that can live in all men.

And I only point out that one is not the other. The will of man changes the tempter and what he does not one little bit.

s

 

[Eventide]

If my assessment is valid to God or not, still we would be voting on Truth.

No, we would be voting on your opinion.. your claim that the man WAS deceived..

Why don't you first understand what was said before you make definitive assumptions based on what you yourself admit you do not comprehend?

Here's what I have gleaned thus far from your comments..

1. The scriptures tell us that the man was NOT deceived. You say that it wrong and that it actually means that the man WAS deceived.

2. You then mentioned that the blood of Christ would be no good to you if you believed that Adam was not deceived..

Something like that.. I agree it's hard to follow.. your logic that is..

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;568480]No, we would be voting on your opinion.. your claim that the man WAS deceived..



Here's what I have gleaned thus far from your comments..


1. The scriptures tell us that the man was NOT deceived. You say that it wrong and that it actually means that the man WAS deceived.

Respectfully this is a wrong assessment. I said it is not meant to imply he knew what he was doing, or in other words that he was never persuaded by the woman who was deceived. For if one believes one who is deceived they too are then deceived.

2. You then mentioned that the blood of Christ would be no good to you if you believed that Adam was not deceived..

Yes the blood which bought us is invalid to me, if I believe there was no need for it. As there was a need, Adam did not know what he was doing, for as we see in 20\20 hindsight such knowledge of good and evil did bring death through sin and we did not become like God. God was right in other words. So as if to say, if sin was not handed down through Adam's blunder of following the deceived woman, neither does righteousness come through Christ to all men. My point is that Adam was wrong but his actions should not be applied so as to imply wanton betrayal. The blood of Jesus is an atonement based on mercy not blame. The mercy made available through Christ's intercession who says, forgive them they know not what they do. Why should we not believe what Jesus says and condemn ourselves saying we know exactly what we do? Mercy begets mercy and condemnation begets condemnation. It is my view that Satan used the woman, who was the glory of Adam to cause the man to fall who was the glory of God.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“Because he had a defiled conscience, and punished himself and everyone else unjustly in his delusion. You seem to be intelligent FC. So I invite you to be fully objective and consider the issue from both the left and right as you ponder my answer. In other words if you wish to see the center, don't just ask why someone would be punished who is not culpable, but also, why would someone who came from heaven, who was innocent, be punished for the sake of those who did the damage?â€

I’m not as intelligent as you gave me credit for. I couldn’t understand a thing you said. At least not as relating to the question I asked. This isn’t another example of semantics, is it?

FC

 

[Eventide]

Respectfully this is a wrong assessment. I said it is not meant to imply he knew what he was doing, or in other words that he was never persuaded by the woman who was deceived. For if one believes one who is deceived they too are then deceived.

Sounds like you're changing your tune now...

Was the man deceived..? YES, NO, or you're just not sure anymore..

Yes the blood which bought us is invalid to me, if I believe there was no need for it.

WHY would there be NO need for the blood of Christ if Adam was not deceived.. ?

As there was a need, Adam did not know what he was doing, for as we see in 20\20 hindsight such knowledge of good and evil did bring death through sin and we did not become like God. God was right in other words. So as if to say, if sin was not handed down through Adam's blunder of following the deceived woman, neither does righteousness come through Christ to all men. My point is that Adam was wrong but his actions should not be applied so as to imply wanton betrayal. The blood of Jesus is an atonement based on mercy not blame. The mercy made available through Christ's intercession who says, forgive them they know not what they do. Why should we not believe what Jesus says and condemn ourselves saying we know exactly what we do? Mercy begets mercy and condemnation begets condemnation. It is my view that Satan used the woman, who was the glory of Adam to cause the man to fall who was the glory of God.

Let me ask you this..

Have you ever knowingly disobeyed somebody ? How about with God.. are you always 100% perfectly obedient in all things ?

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;568654]Sounds like you're changing your tune now...

Was the man deceived..? YES, NO, or you're just not sure anymore..

I'm not changing my tune but correcting your reproduction. Yes\No applied in which context?

WHY would there be NO need for the blood of Christ if Adam was not deceived.. ?

Because sin would not exist in man if Adam was not deceived. I am believing in Holiness although I doubt you understand what I mean by that. Suffice it to say, I believe Adam would not have disobeyed if not for Satan's deception through subtlty.

Let me ask you this..


Have you ever knowingly disobeyed somebody ? How about with God.. are you always 100% perfectly obedient in all things ?

My answers, yes I have knowingly disobeyed others. Regarding God, I have not sold everything I own and given the money to the poor. God will judge if I have obeyed my flesh more than I have obeyed Him. But I assure you it is not my will to be subject to the flesh in any capacity. I do not want to be a sinner. I therefore assume neither does anybody else according to the golden rule.

 

[Elijah674]

No, we would be voting on your opinion.. your claim that the man WAS deceived..

Here's what I have gleaned thus far from your comments..

1. The scriptures tell us that the man was NOT deceived. You say that it wrong and that it actually means that the man WAS deceived.

2. You then mentioned that the blood of Christ would be no good to you if you believed that Adam was not deceived..

Something like that.. I agree it's hard to follow.. your logic that is..

Hi, Elijah here: I thought that you might like this from another site!

Posted by Dev...,

The answer is yes! We have the living God, and activity is the proof of life! Christianity is a way of life! Therefore, all concepts that encourage inactivity, complacency and nonchalant attitude should be shunned!

Paul expresses his anxiety with this:

1Corinthians 9: 24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Paul is referring to salvation to an ‘incorruptible’ crown.

Just as all those who run do not receive a ‘corruptible’ crown so also in case of ‘incorruptible’ crown because many run to get declared, nominally, as ‘also-ran’ without any striving on their part to run for victory!

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air

He speaks of his sincerity and striving, lest he may be disqualified:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

This is further clarified in:

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Furthermore, this is further indicated in:

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

Finally Jesus Himself warns:

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There are many more verses to prove my point which many nominal Christians do not want to hear!

I have taken verses from four different sources. If someone is sincerely wanted to counter my thinking, the condition is this:

Verses should be at least from 3 different sources/books/authors with one source should be from the Gospels because all important Christian understanding should not be based on single source/author! Gospels occupy the primary source for all our understanding!

 

[smaller]

Sounds like you're changing your tune now...

Was the man deceived..? YES, NO, or you're just not sure anymore..

There is no violating the text. Adam was not deceived.

There is a reason Paul stated that Adam wasn't deceived, but Eve was.

Adam is a picture of the external, natural or fleshly man. The natural man can not mind the things of the Spirit i.e. Gods Command not to eat.

Eve on the other hand was deceived. She is a picture of the 'inner man' as she was still within Adam when the Command, 'do not eat' was delivered.

All deception begins 'within' in the 'inner man.'

Paul's statement was deadly accurate. Just has to be put in perspective.

Protology 101

As this subject relates to 'freewill' we certainly know that the Law (Do Not Eat) is as all of Gods Laws are, again as Paul stated, Spiritual.

This is what we know of the 'natural' man:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Again, deadly accurate on Paul's part.

Was Adam a natural man? Of course:

1 Cor. 15:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

There was, in short, a first, natural Adam. And when he passed from his flesh he was undoubtedly saved because he was Gods son. (Luke 3:38)

There are reasons 'why' Adam could not hear/obey that extend further than the subject matter herein.

s

 

[childeye]

Childeye

“Because he had a defiled conscience, and punished himself and everyone else unjustly in his delusion. You seem to be intelligent FC. So I invite you to be fully objective and consider the issue from both the left and right as you ponder my answer. In other words if you wish to see the center, don't just ask why someone would be punished who is not culpable, but also, why would someone who came from heaven, who was innocent, be punished for the sake of those who did the damage?”

I’m not as intelligent as you gave me credit for. I couldn’t understand a thing you said. At least not as relating to the question I asked. This isn’t another example of semantics, is it?

FC

FC, yes semantics are involved regarding the word punishment in your question. Did God punish all of mankind or did Adam? This is a relevant question pertaining to context. For example. If I command my daughter to not touch the stove or she will get burned, and she did not trust me , she receives her punishment even according to her own actions built upon distrust. She touches the stove and gets burned. Then there is the punishment that is meant as a deterrent to disobedience which promises prison or a fine of some sort for any deviation from proper guidance. Then there is corporal punishment which is death or execution because the person deserving execution is unfit to live and for the sake of all they must be removed from society.

What I think happened with Adam was that all men born of Adam received within themselves a certain measure of sin. Others will contest this for some will point out Enoch and Elijah who were transformed. Or they will say Cain was the product of implied sexual relations with Satan while Abel was a product of Adam and so there are two different races of people on the planet born through Eve. You can see how this all gets confusing.

But my point is to ask why Jesus takes upon himself the sins of the world and what is his motivation for doing so? For while it seems unfair that all men would be punished for Adam's sin, likewise it seems unfair that one man who was innocent would take upon himself the sins of the world. I find in my reasoning that one negates the other. So when I say to God, it is unfair that I was born a sinner, I hear the answer come back likewise it was unfair that Christ became sin for me and I lose the argument.

 

[childeye]

The fact that you seem to be able to place the operation of temptation within mankind via an entity that is not them/us might also seem to make you able to separate these two workings, one from another?

Temptation and evil are 'all' inner thought matters and are so by Satanic (tempter thoughts) impositions upon all mankinds minds AND will.

This is a fact of scripture that categorically makes all men 'not just man.'

Yes but lies are made exposed by the Truth that is not impotent , so as to say that I can differentiate that which is Truth from that which is lies through the Holy Spirit. Since sin is founded upon lies made to tempt the flesh Truth is the power that sets one free from the slavery of sin, at the very least in the prospect of mercy through mercy. I therefore am not advocating that I am anything of myself, but that I become what I believe to be true.

I find no promises of sinless flesh or mind in the realm of corruption, weakness and dishonor in the text. Do you?

I find a promise of mercy for the merciful, and so there is hope in intercession begun in Christ; Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

I understand that not my every thought is my own, and derive that understanding from scripture. That's as personal as I care to share as giving glory to the detailed facts of darkness does nothing. It is enough to say that the fact is a fact regardless of the details. Knowing this has helped me make discernments, but it has never stopped the actual working fact nor do I expect it to.

Hence you are against blame and rightly so. However God gave men over to the lusts of the flesh because we did not esteem God as God, and so also can he restore dignity to a man and deliver him from his lust, if and when a man esteems Him properly. This would be to esteem Him as ever trustworthy in love and devotion to us and our prosperity, even as we first did not when in ignorance we trusted Satan at the first and allowed the intent of his so subtle slander of God.

Vessels of honor certainly and naturally 'do that.' I would not expect that same reaction however from vessels of dishonor, meaning DEVILS. Even when they 'claim' that Jesus is The Son of God for example, even while mouthing the words they are STILL LYING.

Why? Because there is 'no truth' in them to be had, found or spoken. <--- This is a fact for 'all' of Satan and devils.

I agree, and I hope you agree that these devils can be cast out by the light of the Truth given the hope of God's granting repentance by acknowledging His grace in the matter. For the creation was made subject to vanity unwillingly, by Him so that He might subject it unto hope.

Thanks for the conversation smaller. Always a pleasure to talk with you.