Here's what God does

[Heidi]

Here's what God does:

He:

1) Creates and destroys
2) Delivers us from evil
3) Leads us out of temptation
4) Hardens hearts
5) Has mercy on the humble and opposes the proud
6) Determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell
7) Knits us in the womb
8) Determines our steps
9) Gives us the strength to follow him
10) Raises up a foolish shepherd
11) Establishes authorities on earth
12) Changes hearts
13) Renews minds
14) Gives us; knowledge, wisdom, faith, love, hope, patience, which are the fruits of His Spirit
15) Opens the eyes of the blind
16) Makes people's hearts caloused
17) Is the supreme ruler of the universe and author of life
18) Gives life and takes it away
19) Controls Satan

So what's left for man to do? Absolutely nothing. ;-) So the "free will" of man is an illusion. It's simply a desire to take from God and claim it for oneself. :

 

[RadicalReformer]

I would hope that your list was not meant to be exhaustive (sp?).

 

[Drew]

Here's what God does:

He:

6) Determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell

Can you scripturally prove number 6 please? And I heartily invite you to try to argue that Romans 9:22 etc - about the the potter and his clay pot - supports your position. As readers will know, I do not tire of arguing that passage :-D.

 

[Imagican]

God has also OFFERED 'free will'. For that is EXACTLY how He wishes for us to love Him. Through our OWN 'free will'.

if mankind had NOT been given 'free will', Adam and Eve would have NEVER been 'able' to offer disobedience.

MEC

 

[RadicalReformer]

God has also OFFERED 'free will'. For that is EXACTLY how He wishes for us to love Him. Through our OWN 'free will'.

if mankind had NOT been given 'free will', Adam and Eve would have NEVER been 'able' to offer disobedience.

MEC

I would agree with you to a point - precisely that it was Adam and Eve ONLY who received Free Will.

All of humanity has a will. It was Adam and Eve who were granted a "Free Will" - once they chose sin over God, humanity's will has been bound to sin. We have a will, it is not "free".

 

[Heidi]

Here's what God does:

He:

6) Determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell

Can you scripturally prove number 6 please? And I heartily invite you to try to argue that Romans 9:22 etc - about the the potter and his clay pot - supports your position. As readers will know, I do not tire of arguing that passage :-D.

Romans 9:19-24, particularly verse 22. If you want to argue with the bible, then it's your soul that's at stake, not mine.

So which human being has the power to determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? Does this person impart the Holy Spirit to people? If so, then how is he not telling God what to do? Or is that person the final authority on people's souls? Please explain why.

 

[Heidi]

God has also OFFERED 'free will'. For that is EXACTLY how He wishes for us to love Him. Through our OWN 'free will'.

if mankind had NOT been given 'free will', Adam and Eve would have NEVER been 'able' to offer disobedience.

MEC

I would agree with you to a point - precisely that it was Adam and Eve ONLY who received Free Will.

All of humanity has a will. It was Adam and Eve who were granted a "Free Will" - once they chose sin over God, humanity's will has been bound to sin. We have a will, it is not "free".

Sorry, but if Adam and Eve knew that they were being deceived by Satan, they wouldn't have eaten from the tree because they wanted to be like God, not Satan. So no, they didn't have free will. They were being deceived by Satan. This was God's plan as Romans 11:32, "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all." No sin, no mercy. When people understand that, they'll know who's in control of the universe. And it's not Satan or the human will. It's God.

 

[Drew]

Romans 9:19-24, particularly verse 22. If you want to argue with the bible, then it's your soul that's at stake, not mine.

Oh goody. I am more than happy to swing at this hanging curve.

And please, can we dispense with the threats of hell-fire and soberly examine what this text is all about?

The potter and his clay pot are God and the nation of Israel. This material has absolutely nothing to do with issues of individual persons being elected to salvation or to loss.

All of Romans 9 and the first part at least of Romans 10 are a re-telling of the covenant history of Israel. We start with Abraham, then Isaac and Ishmael, then Jacob and Esau, then we get to Moses and Pharoah and we finish off with threats of exile and then ultimately convenant renewal. In Romans 10:6, Paul quotes Deuteronomy 30. What is Deuteronomy 30 all about? It is about covenant renewal.

In verses 6 through 13, Paul is making an apologetic to the effect that God "has the right to define 'true' Israel any way that He wants - kind of like how a potter gets to mold a clay pot to his liking.

Just before the potter account we have the story of Moses and Pharoah. Why was Pharoah's heart hardened? Because God wanted to send him to hell? No. Because God was using him to effect a great act of redemption in human history - the delivery of the Jews from captivity (another specifically covenantal act, by the way).

In the same way, God as the potter has elected Israel as a clay pot to serve a specific redemptive purpose in history. Israel has been elected to the place where the sin of the world is accumulated so that it can then be borne by her faithful Messiah, Jesus.

It would make little sense for Paul to be talking about election of Fred and not Joe in the middle of a tightly argued passage about the re-definition of Israel (again, this like the potter molding his pot) and His use of Israel (just like Pharoah) to serve a specific role in redemptive history - an act that allows Paul to claim the following:

I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God

Israel has been "elected" to be the place where the sin grows to its full height - culminating in the rejection of her Messiah - bur not for her own sake, but for the sake of the world. Again, from Romans 11, we have:

"...because of their (Israel's) transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles..."

Israel has been elected to enable the Gentiles to be grafted in (among other things).

Paul is not talking about individuals being pre-destined to salvation or loss.

 

[Heidi]

Romans 9:19-24, particularly verse 22. If you want to argue with the bible, then it's your soul that's at stake, not mine.

Oh goody. I am more than happy to swing at this hanging curve.

And please, can we dispense with the threats of hell-fire and soberly examine what this text is all about?

The potter and his clay pot are God and the nation of Israel. This material has absolutely nothing to do with issues of individual persons being elected to salvation or to loss.

All of Romans 9 and the first part at least of Romans 10 are a re-telling of the covenant history of Israel. We start with Abraham, then Isaac and Ishmael, then Jacob and Esau, then we get to Moses and Pharoah and we finish off with threats of exile and then ultimately convenant renewal. In Romans 10:6, Paul quotes Deuteronomy 30. What is Deuteronomy 30 all about? It is about covenant renewal.

In verses 6 through 13, Paul is making an apologetic to the effect that God "has the right to define 'true' Israel any way that He wants - kind of like how a potter gets to mold a clay pot to his liking.

Just before the potter account we have the story of Moses and Pharoah. Why was Pharoah's heart hardened? Because God wanted to send him to hell? No. Because God was using him to effect a great act of redemption in human history - the delivery of the Jews from captivity (another specifically covenantal act, by the way).

In the same way, God as the potter has elected Israel as a clay pot to serve a specific redemptive purpose in history. Israel has been elected to the place where the sin of the world is accumulated so that it can then be borne by her faithful Messiah, Jesus.

It would make little sense for Paul to be talking about election of Fred and not Joe in the middle of a tightly argued passage about the re-definition of Israel (again, this like the potter molding his pot) and His use of Israel (just like Pharoah) to serve a specific role in redemptive history - an act that allows Paul to claim the following:

I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God

Israel has been "elected" to be the place where the sin grows to its full height - culminating in the rejection of her Messiah - bur not for her own sake, but for the sake of the world. Again, from Romans 11, we have:

"...because of their (Israel's) transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles..."

Israel has been elected to enable the Gentiles to be grafted in (among other things).

Paul is not talking about individuals being pre-destined to salvation or loss.

So then what you're saying is:

1) God doesn't have power over anyone but Israel. :
2) God didn't choose any Gentiles before the creation of the World. They just interrupted his plan because they were righteous enough to do so. Or maybe you're claiming that God doesn't have a plan and is just...well...winging it. :
3) God isn't sovereign
4) That Romans 3:11 isn't true, because the righteous choose God on their own rather than by the power of the Hoy Spirit
5) That the Holy Spirit isn't stronger than Satan or the human will
6) That Ezekiel 37:26 is wrong also because God's Spirit doesn't cause anyone to do anything.

So sorry, but since scripture doesn't lie, then your explanation is wrong, plain and simply and your attempt to glorify those who "choose" God doesn't work. Faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast. You underestimate God and elevate man which is called pride and flattery, not humility which is from the Spirit. So you really need to read the whole bible, particularly Romans 11 to see that God does have a plan and isn't at the mercy of the human will. You also need to remember :"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." That means that since God chooses who goes to heaven, then he also chooses who goes to hell. "You did not choose me, I chose you." And; "God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." That means that no one has the power to override the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit has victory over Satan. So your explanation contradicts scripture every way you look at it.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Drew - who makes up Israel?

Within communities or nations are individuals.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi Here's what God does:

He:

1) Creates and destroys
2) Delivers us from evil
3) Leads us out of temptation
4) Hardens hearts
5) Has mercy on the humble and opposes the proud
6) Determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell
7) Knits us in the womb
8) Determines our steps
9) Gives us the strength to follow him
10) Raises up a foolish shepherd
11) Establishes authorities on earth
12) Changes hearts
13) Renews minds
14) Gives us; knowledge, wisdom, faith, love, hope, patience, which are the fruits of His Spirit
15) Opens the eyes of the blind
16) Makes people's hearts caloused
17) Is the supreme ruler of the universe and author of life
18) Gives life and takes it away
19) Controls Satan

So what's left for man to do? Absolutely nothing. So the "free will" of man is an illusion. It's simply a desire to take from God and claim it for oneself.

Here's what God does and what man must do in response:

1) God Creates and destroys, man either acknowledges him as creator or rejects him.
2) God Delivers us from evil, man either thanks him, depends on him and trusts him or not.
3) God Leads us out of temptation, man either looks for the way that God has provided to escape temptation and resists the devil, or he chooses to go into the sin.
4) God Hardens hearts, and man either learns the lesson that God is teaching through the hardening and subsequent punishment, or he falls into the same judgment over and over again.
5) God Has mercy on the humble and opposes the proud, and man must humble himself before a mighty God, or be humbled by him.
6) God Determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, …by their lives and the deeds done while they lived, so man must follow Christ and do good works to be saved.
7) God Knits us in the womb, and only he can do that.
8) God Determines our steps… when we commit our way to unto him and works all things to good to those who love him, so man must choose to love him and commit their steps to the Lord, or suffer the consequences of being in the wrong way.
9) God Gives us the strength to follow him, so man must choose to follow him and do his will or not.
10) God Raises up a foolish shepherd, so man must listen to the Holy Spirit and not follow man-made religions.
11) God Establishes authorities on earth, so man must pray for the king, or president, pray that we may live in peace, and do whatever he can do to live peaceably with all men.
12) God Changes hearts so man must submit unto his changing, and choose to repent from evil or there will be no reward in it. ( 1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.)
13) God Renews minds so man must submit his thoughts to God and guard them from the devil, keeping them from evil and lustful places.
14) God Gives us; knowledge, wisdom, faith, love, hope, patience, which are the fruits of His Spirit, so man must be thankful and open to God and following the Spirit and walk in his ways to receive all these blessings from his hand.
15) Opens the eyes of the blind so man must step into the light and away from the darkness of sin and open his eyes to truth and look for ways to show the light to others who walk in darkness.
16) Makes people's hearts caloused ….by his constant speaking to them, and their turning away from him, so man must return to God and stop turning away from him.
17) Is the supreme ruler of the universe and author of life, so man must obey him and do whatsoever he commands, if they want to inherit eternal life that he so freely offers to them that obey him, (Hebrews 5:9).
18) Gives life and takes it away, Blessed be the name of the Lord.
19) Controls Satan, so resist the devil and he will flee from you.

So you can see what's left for man to do. Not exactly “absolutely nothing.†So the "free will" of man is not an illusion. It's simply God’s desire to have real, free autonomous beings who are able to make decisions and act on them independently from his sovereign will or anyone else’s and be responsible for their own moral decisions. Then when they choose to follow him out of love and gratitude, he knows it is not just him causing them to act in that way.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi:
[quote:97eb4]RadicalReformer wrote:
Imagican wrote:“God has also OFFERED 'free will'. For that is EXACTLY how He wishes for us to love Him. Through our OWN 'free will'. if mankind had NOT been given 'free will', Adam and Eve would have NEVER been 'able' to offer disobedience. MECâ€Â

I would agree with you to a point - precisely that it was Adam and Eve ONLY who received Free Will.
All of humanity has a will. It was Adam and Eve who were granted a "Free Will" - once they chose sin over God, humanity's will has been bound to sin. We have a will, it is not "free".

Sorry, but if Adam and Eve knew that they were being deceived by Satan, they wouldn't have eaten from the tree because they wanted to be like God, not Satan. So no, they didn't have free will. They were being deceived by Satan. This was God's plan as Romans 11:32, "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them all." No sin, no mercy. When people understand that, they'll know who's in control of the universe. And it's not Satan or the human will. It's God.[/quote:97eb4]

Yes, all men were bound over to disobedience and Jesus died to set the captives free, all of them, Heidi. All men are free to choose to obey or reject the law of love written on their hearts by God himself and interpreted to us by his Holy Spirit bringing conviction and leading every man, and not just a few pets, Heidi. All men are called to salvation but only those who respond and obey will be saved. Imagican is right, Drew is right, and you are; ....not.

 

[unred typo]

quote by RadicalReformer
Drew - who makes up Israel?

Within communities or nations are individuals.

The Bible clearly shows that God sometimes deals with the nation as a nation and not as individuals within that nation. God knows how to deliver the godly, while punishing the wicked when he judges a country or a city or a community. Sometimes a godly person will suffer within the nation that sins and refuses to repent, but God will make it up in the end for that godly person at the judgment when the faithful, the meek, the merciful, and those who mourn and are persecuted for righteousness‘ sake are rewarded.

 

[Drew]

Drew - who makes up Israel?

Within communities or nations are individuals.

Thanks for your question. I am going to assume that your underlying argument is "obviously Israel is made up individual persons, therefore in Romans 9 Paul is talking about the election of individuals to salvation or loss".

That argument is incorrect.

Can God "elect" or "manipulate" nations as a whole to do something without having to elect the members of that nation to heaven or to hell? Of course he can. God can and probably did "elect" Egypt to oppress the Jews. Does this mean God has elected all Egyptians to go to hell? Or some to go to heaven and others to hell? Of course not.

To make an even more ridiculous example. Suppose that, for some mysterious reason, God needs to have the New York Yankees win the World Series in 2008. He can "elect" the Yankees to that destiny. Does that mean that God needs to elect each member of the team to heaven or to hell?

Of course not.

Romans 9 is clearly about God's election of the nation of Israel as a whole to do something very specific in His plan to redeem the world through Israel - and ultimately her faithful Messiah. The clay pot is Israel acting as a nation being fashioned by God as the place where the sin of the world gets accumulated. This does not mean that individual Jews have been pre-destined to salcvation or to loss.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Drew - who makes up Israel?

Within communities or nations are individuals.

Thanks for your question. I am going to assume that your underlying argument is "obviously Israel is made up individual persons, therefore in Romans 9 Paul is talking about the election of individuals to salvation or loss".

That argument is incorrect.

Can God "elect" or "manipulate" nations as a whole to do something without having to elect the members of that nation to heaven or to hell? Of course he can. God can and probably did "elect" Egypt to oppress the Jews. Does this mean God has elected all Egyptians to go to hell? Or some to go to heaven and others to hell? Of course not.

To make an even more ridiculous example. Suppose that, for some mysterious reason, God needs to have the New York Yankees win the World Series in 2008. He can "elect" the Yankees to that destiny. Does that mean that God needs to elect each member of the team to heaven or to hell?

Of course not.

Romans 9 is clearly about God's election of the nation of Israel as a whole to do something very specific in His plan to redeem the world through Israel - and ultimately her faithful Messiah. The clay pot is Israel acting as a nation being fashioned by God as the place where the sin of the world gets accumulated. This does not mean that individual Jews have been pre-destined to salcvation or to loss.

Drew - while I appreciate that you underlined it - why attempt to jump to conclusions about what my arguement might or might not be. I merely asked a simple question. Am I too assume that your post is an answer to the question asked, or is it an answer to what you perceive what my arguement might or might not be?

 

[Vic C.]

Oh goody. I am more than happy to swing at this hanging curve.

And please, can we dispense with the threats of hell-fire and soberly examine what this text is all about?

Don't worry, no mere mortal man or woman can send you there. ;-)

But I DO ask you all keep it civil or else we will be forced to take action and block the offenders (yes, plural) from posting in this Apologetics Forum.

 

[Drew]

Drew - while I appreciate that you underlined it - why attempt to jump to conclusions about what my arguement might or might not be. I merely asked a simple question. Am I too assume that your post is an answer to the question asked, or is it an answer to what you perceive what my arguement might or might not be?

Fair enough. I attributed a certain position to you and qualified it as an assumption. I am interested to know if you have a specific position on the potter's account of Romans 9. Or, could you please be more clear about what you want me to comment on?

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi:
Here's what God does:

He:

1) Creates and destroys
2) Delivers us from evil
3) Leads us out of temptation
4) Hardens hearts
5) Has mercy on the humble and opposes the proud
6) Determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell
7) Knits us in the womb
8) Determines our steps
9) Gives us the strength to follow him
10) Raises up a foolish shepherd
11) Establishes authorities on earth
12) Changes hearts
13) Renews minds
14) Gives us; knowledge, wisdom, faith, love, hope, patience, which are the fruits of His Spirit
15) Opens the eyes of the blind
16) Makes people's hearts caloused
17) Is the supreme ruler of the universe and author of life
18) Gives life and takes it away
19) Controls Satan

So what's left for man to do? Absolutely nothing. So the "free will" of man is an illusion. It's simply a desire to take from God and claim it for oneself.

Here's what God does and what man must do in response:

1) God Creates and destroys, man either acknowledges him as creator or rejects him.
2) God Delivers us from evil, man either thanks him, depends on him and trusts him or not.
3) God Leads us out of temptation, man either looks for the way that God has provided to escape temptation and resists the devil, or he chooses to go into the sin.
4) God Hardens hearts, and man either learns the lesson that God is teaching through the hardening and subsequent punishment, or he falls into the same judgment over and over again.
5) God Has mercy on the humble and opposes the proud, and man must humble himself before a mighty God, or be humbled by him.
6) God Determines who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, …by their lives and the deeds done while they lived, so man must follow Christ and do good works to be saved.
7) God Knits us in the womb, and only he can do that.
8) God Determines our steps… when we commit our way to unto him and works all things to good to those who love him, so man must choose to love him and commit their steps to the Lord, or suffer the consequences of being in the wrong way.
9) God Gives us the strength to follow him, so man must choose to follow him and do his will or not.
10) God Raises up a foolish shepherd, so man must listen to the Holy Spirit and not follow man-made religions.
11) God Establishes authorities on earth, so man must pray for the king, or president, pray that we may live in peace, and do whatever he can do to live peaceably with all men.
12) God Changes hearts so man must submit unto his changing, and choose to repent from evil or there will be no reward in it. ( 1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.)
13) God Renews minds so man must submit his thoughts to God and guard them from the devil, keeping them from evil and lustful places.
14) God Gives us; knowledge, wisdom, faith, love, hope, patience, which are the fruits of His Spirit, so man must be thankful and open to God and following the Spirit and walk in his ways to receive all these blessings from his hand.
15) Opens the eyes of the blind so man must step into the light and away from the darkness of sin and open his eyes to truth and look for ways to show the light to others who walk in darkness.
16) Makes people's hearts caloused ….by his constant speaking to them, and their turning away from him, so man must return to God and stop turning away from him.
17) Is the supreme ruler of the universe and author of life, so man must obey him and do whatsoever he commands, if they want to inherit eternal life that he so freely offers to them that obey him, (Hebrews 5:9).
18) Gives life and takes it away, Blessed be the name of the Lord.
19) Controls Satan, so resist the devil and he will flee from you.

So you can see what's left for man to do. Not exactly “absolutely nothing.†So the "free will" of man is not an illusion. It's simply God’s desire to have real, free autonomous beings who are able to make decisions and act on them independently from his sovereign will or anyone else’s and be responsible for their own moral decisions. Then when they choose to follow him out of love and gratitude, he knows it is not just him causing them to act in that way.

Heidi? Are you going to answer my post or drop out, as usual? :-?