Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

International burn a Quran day

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$1,048.00
Goal
$1,038.00
I love the proofs of validity you guys present because its so hypocritical -
you say: we have more people
but if Islam overtakes christianity in numbers youll simply dismiss it
you say: we have more archaelogical evidence
But when the scientists and archeologists disagree, you dismiss them
you say: Muzlums have no miracles
when presented with them, yiou say - well we have more
you say: Muzlums are losing battles, Gods on our side
but when christians are losing battles you ralley behind the martyrs as proof of the validity of your faith

Do you not see the hypocracy when you use such justification for your faith? What happens when God tests the words you say and things fall out of your favor - then what do you say?
First of all, why not respond to the post I presented instead of responding to things you've heard others say?

If you have any examples of archaeology that shows Christianity to be a false religion, it would be far better for you to present it than for you to do what you have done - simply infer it.

Take care my friend.

John Bronzesnake
 
danus, i will chime in. its funny my old wartime pltsgt who hates all things muslim and has no love for them as whole. even he said that its wrong to burn the quran.

he did tell me that he thought i would convert to islam as i hung out with the terps alot as i wanted to understand them and expericence their culture if i could just alittle.

i'm glad that the pastor didnt burn them qurans.
 
danus, i will chime in. its funny my old wartime pltsgt who hates all things muslim and has no love for them as whole. even he said that its wrong to burn the quran.

he did tell me that he thought i would convert to islam as i hung out with the terps alot as i wanted to understand them and expericence their culture if i could just alittle.

i'm glad that the pastor didnt burn them qurans.

Good point. I like theLords Idea about reading from the Quran. Maybe we should do more of that within the Christian community in order that we might gain an understanding of Muslims around the world and Islam in general.

I'm not a fan of burning the Quran or any book for that matter, but in the case I agree that it's an aggressive act of frustration. However, I do view it more so as a political act as well, at least here in America.

Right now the Christian community feels pretty let down and attacked in this country. To me It's not so much Islam but the liberal left. They seem to worship the idea of government and social constructs of freedom, yet they hold a double standard when it comes to radical expressions of freedom. When they burn the flag or fight for gay rights and such it's a cause for freedom, but when we want demonstrate by burning a Quran, or expressing our views on abortion and such, we are ignorant, intolerant hate mongers.
 
YouTube - The Original Burn the Quran Day

I found this on youtube it's a great witnessing tool!

That is fascinating. I'm adding it to my list of further studies.

Yes, I was under the impression that the Quran was all together as is. What I have read does not speak to me as divine to begin with, not like the bible. I have to assume now that only the best, most memorable parts of the original Quaran where "remembered", so the original must have been even worse for my reading....who knows.

MA, if you get a chance and your still working this thread, I'd like to read your opinion on this video.
 
What they was mostly true - they also left out alot that did not support their train of thought though, but thats ok, they are trying to deliver a message to christians, its best to stay on point.

The Sahabah who compiled different Qurans were ALL right according to Muslims, what we have today is a consensus of the Sahabah on what was related by Muhamed(SAW). Some of the Quran was lost - but this was the will of God - wwhat was lost must not have been deemed necassary for us to have.

The reason different Qurans had different numbers of chapters and on some occasions, varying wordings - was because the companions sometimes debated what was classified as "Quran" and what was classified as a "hadeeth Qudsi" (hadeeth which are considered to be the word of Allah)

this is very good example of you guys learning Islam from christian sources. You get only part of the truth. The sources those guys used were in fact sound Muslim sources - however they failed to explain the Muslim side of the equation. They didnt find those sources in a secret cave somwhere - they are open sources of info that Muslims not only compiled, but also have preserved. To understand fully the events and decisions that were made by the Sahabah (who, in addition to Muhamed(SAW) are also our guides in Islam) which lead to what we now know of as the Quran.

One thing they mentioned that is correct and all my Muslim friends have also mentioned is that burning of Qurans is an accepted means of properly disposing of them.

Here is an Islamic perspective using many of the same sources regarding the compilation of the Quran

The Quran - When Was it Compiled?

It would be cooler if you had a video....:) Kidding.

Thanks for your response. I will save your link for that study, but I did get through a little.

As for learning about Islam through Christian sources, and the dangers of "one-sided" opinions, don't assume we all only learn about Islam through such sources, but I get your meaning, and I agree.

It's not possible for a true Christian to "convert" to Islam. That's not my opinion, that's a fact of our belief. I know that might sound convenient for us to say, but it's really not logically possible. I do believe that many people who claim Christianity could possibly turn to Islam and embrace it, but that's true of such people to anything.

Side topic, but still within topic: What is the difference between the Islam being taught to "peaceful Muslims" and the Islam being taught to those who have carried out terrorist acts? Granted I do not feel Islam is peaceful, but I'd like to understand what you think in regard to this. I do believe that many if not most Muslims are peaceful people, but we hear all the time about "radical Islam". Tell me about that if you will. ....and thanks again.
 
let me correct you a little on the kicking down of doors, we have a branch in the army called civilian affairs , they are an outreach to the local populace in the time of war. they will often warn civilians when the battles are hot and where to avoid the fight, they will aslo work to rebuild the country. the later is what i was involved in country, that is why i knew the terps,and yes the local villagers in kunar often hated us for that door thing but with a little work form the ca guys that is often overcome and with a little personal skills and in time the local would often police themselves.

that is something the news doesnt tell you.
 
i wonder about my friends that i made over there may pay the price when we leave country.

on that obama isnt into rebuilding the country of afghanistan , unlike bush.

i here that iraq(balad) is now a vacation as fewer attacks occur to the soldiers.

we cant choose the destiny of these countries they must take the helm and steer it.
 
A Muslim child growing up in a Muslim land goes through only rudimentary schooling when taught Isalm - they are taight how to pray, the basic beliefs, and how to act - this elementry schooling does not touch on the more advanced points which seperate Orthodox Muslims from the neo-salafi teachings.

Usually once a young Muslim reaches a certain age, they begin to pursue (or not pursue) higher forms of Islamic education - sometimes this is in the form of formal education at a Islamic University or madaras - while other times it is done via the Internet and just picking up random books and becoming familiar with the writings of particular ancient and contemporary scholars - the latter form of educating oneself is usually the catalyst that sends a young Muslim towards extremeism.

The aspect of extremism that mostly concerns Americans and non-muslims is terrorism - indiscriminate killing of civilians - But the roots of these actions are much more complicated and hardly resemble that aspect of extremism you wish to stop - the result is that many non-muslims fail to see the connections of minor Islamic details and practices and how they relate to terrorism.

The common theme that is seen amongst young Muslims who choose the salafi route - and then blossom into violent extremists is lack of education - When they live in the west, their parents may not have taught them much about Islam, other than how to pray and give salaam - so when they begin to search, they have a 50/50 chance of either finding Orthodox Islam - or Takfiri Salafi Islam. If they find the salafi way - many things in the world begin to outrage them. They begin to pronounce fellow Muslims as fasiqoon (rebellious to Allah) and Mubtadi (innovators in religion) and Kafir (disbeliever) - this is the first sign of extremism - from this, they are not far from saying suicide bombing is in line with Islam - or something I ahve come out of the mouths of Salafis, "They kill our women and children, we can kill theirs". Salafis see themselves as the one "saved" sect of Islam, this based on a hadeeth you may have read before stating that the jews, christians, and Muslims all divided into sects - and of all of these sects - one sect is "saved" from the hellfires. So they see themselves as a minority group who has divine right over the world - and the Allah will give them victory over all people wheather they be Muslim or not. This is the reason they kill more Muslims than any other group - and is why they are hated amongst the vast majority of Muslims.

Another thing that turns a 'peaceful Muslim" into and extremeist is where they live and what they experience - In Palestine, I saw a great deal of salafi ideology there, but the Muslims didnt know they followed a salafi ideology because thats the only Islamic Ideology they have ever known. Poverty coupled with embargos and lack of trade has made Palestine a hotbed for this neo-salafi minhaj - the reason being that Saudi (who is the head of this movement) has used its petro dollars it receives from the US to flood palestine and Egypt with salafi literature - because these people thirst to learn about Islam - and since Mecca is in Saudi, they automaticly asssume they are rightly guided. So Men like Sheikh Ya Sin (who was killed a few years ago in a drone attack) are able to rise to high ranks - while men like Sheikh Salik are ostracized for speaking against the salafi docterine.

Also - in Afghanistan - a boy who was 8 when the US invaded, and saw US soldiers, who he sees as christian, kicking in his door - or pointing a rifle at his mother - or forcing him and his friends to lie on the ground at gun point in order to make sure hes not a lookout for terrorists - This boy now has no good impression of christianity and America - this boy is the next generation - So the US does Al Qaedas recruitment job for them - now that boy is 18, he has spent half of his life under the heel of what he perceives as forign christian invaders - and he doesnt know why.

These are some of the things that cause extremism - some of the things that turn people into extremists - yet the American people, and many christians, are calling for action to be taken against Muslims in order to,stop terrorism - while ignoring the things that cause extremism. We have a small number of misguided educated Muslim men who know how to sell their brand of Islam to a young naive kid.

I was once inspired by these guys - As a new Muslim, 17 at the time, I was ripe for the pickin - and the Jihadi salafis knew this - In my mind, they were Arabs with big beards, They essentially "looked Muslim", they spoke arabic and were knowledgeable - so I gobbled up all that they fed me - and I will tell you, they got me hyped when they spoke of us going to chechnya and fighting the russians and the sufis and establishing a khalifat - I was ready to go. I was litteraly recruited by Al Qaeda when I was 17 (They did not go by any name, but you get the point) - remember meeting a guy at a mosque who once he heard my Muslim name - asked if I wanted to be a "real Mujahid?" I said "heck yeah" - I met him a few days later in an alley where he told me where he would send me to be trained and where we would go fight, and gave me 5 days to decide. I told A friend of mine who had a sufi Sheikh, and followed Orthodox Islam - He was shocked and applaud - he talked me out of it by showing me 1)what kind of fighting I would be doing (suicide bombings) and 2)what scholars of Islam said about the kind of fighting I would be doing - Alhumdoillah - I refused his offer and began to learn the differences between what I had been taught - and what had been taught to the Muslims before me for 1400 years - I quickly decided I would follow the ways of the past generations rather than a new reform movement. I then travled to Syria, Jordan, Palestine and Pakistan and sat with different Sheikhs and studied Arabic and the Islamic Sciences.

Thank you MA. Very insightful. Nice pic by the way.

Don't you think it's the responsibility of the "peace loving Muslims", more than anyone, to fight the extremism you describe in your own religion? This is a frustrating aspect of Islam to the west. You seem outnumbered within your own religion.

We hear from you, but I think we feel you don't listen to us as far as our concerns on this matter. (I'm speaking generally). Where is the outrage and action for that which is right within the Islamic communities against extremism, or that which you say is wrong, or not the true Islam?
 
i wouldnt call the mujaheedeen against the russian a miraclous victory, as we kafirs helped them to win by training them and giving them the fy-92 missile(stinger). and also the places to hide in pakistan.

i hope that you, ma did watch the movie charlie wilson's war.

i have seen and met some of these 'war vets' you speak of and they didnt mention that.

actually i was at an old russian base, that was used by the taliban to train arabs in terrorism to hit the us.
 
i have seen the videos and and the officers of the military study that war in depth, at the war college at quantico.

we use the lessoned learned to defeat the taliban.

i have been there ,and in kunar its easy to get ambushed, not much room to maneuver at all.

the soviet occupation of afghanistan was from 1980, to 1989.

and some of the locals actually wanted the russians to return as they treated them better then the taliban!
 
again we trained the commanders (one osam bin laden) to defeat the russians. they were trained by the cia. our tactics they executed it and learned how to make it their own.
 
again we trained the commanders (one osam bin laden) to defeat the russians. they were trained by the cia. our tactics they executed it and learned how to make it their own.

Correct. Also the goal of the Russians was to incorporate Afghanistan into Russia. That at some point became pointless. If you want to call that a victory, I suppose, but it would not have happened if not for the US. At the same time, it's a pointless debate since what could have happened can only be surmised.

MA, I'm not satisfied with your answer to my question. I feel you side steeped it quit a bit.

Right now we are seeing/hearing how American Muslims are being treated with great suspission and perhaps bigotry in the US. Here is a resent story to point.

Fellow Americans' suspicions frustrate US Muslims - Yahoo! News

I think most Americans, regardless of race or religion, just don't trust Islam at all, regardless of how much anyone understands it. Islam has not really embraced the west at all from what I've seen. ON whole, the Islamic community has a huge PR issue that it does not seem to care about one bit, yet we see stories like this from well meaning liberals who seem to buy the Islamic rhetoric of peace, more so due to their lack of understanding. They like to put this tripe out there because they hate the Christian power-base establishment more than anything and they know we don't like what we are seeing right now. Islam is taking full advantage of our country and the current liberal power-base to gain a foot hold here to spread their religion. The Christian right is helpless for the most part and the liberal left is clueless and apathetic. They don't see the Trojan horse inside the gate.
 
true, many americans are suspicious of the muslims around us.

i have issues with muslims as i am a vet. trust must be earned and pr would help, is that too much to ask?

if i was a general in a muslim nation and we occupied it, i would ensure the civilians that we arent gonna to opress them for their faith, they can live in peace as long as they follow civil laws that they vote on and we can work together rebuild your home. so that i can go home. and it would try to educate them on the idea of freedom or relgion and also the ideas we american and the west embrace.
 
MA, you're statistics are a little off. (Not that they're in correct)

The Government uses the term "terrorists" a little more loosely then we are used to. When we say terrorist we first associate that world with Islamic suicide bomber/killer. But the government includes gang violence and drug war violence in their statistics. That's why Latino's make up 42% of the pie.

If we had statistics for "acts of violence committed under the name of (insert religion)" We'd see a very different end result.
 
I didnt mean to side step your question - I thought I addressed it showing where Orthodox Muslims have taken up arms against extremism.

As far as our public relations goes i think its hard - we are not the catholic church with a centralized leadership - Muslims represent a wide spectrum of adhearants. When African groups associated with christianity like the LRA commit crimes that violate the teachings of christianity - the American people dont blink an eye to defend their faith vs. the actions of the LRA. And what if you did - what if you were constantly being told to speak out against criminal groups who perverse christianity? Youd probably get tired of it after a while and sy "whatever, let em think what ever they want, Im done".

That article you posted summed things up nicely - for 9 years we scream our religion can peacefully coexist with America - and then this year comes and Politicians have even jumped on the anti-muslim band wagon - something they shyed away from in past years.

I dont think its liberal principals that allow Islam to grow in America - its the American founding principals - its scary to hear people say that Islam should be not allowed to gain a foot hold in America - we should be allowed to flourish just as the catholic church has the chance to grow bigger here in America.

I can understand your fears - historicly speaking - once Islam grabs a foot hold in a nation - it tends to spread and in some cases, transform that nation into a Muslim one - this is the nature of Islam - and one reason why Europe tryed desperately to keep it outside the gates of Vienna for centuries.

How many Muslims do you know Danus? - how many Muslims houses have you had dinner? How much interaction with American Muslims have you really had? because I see things entirely different from you - I see Muslims who embrace modernity and the west. What I dont see is the American people (mostly the right) getting to know about Muslims and our faith - My mother is a hardcore evangelical christian - she hates Islam, but she has a son who follows it - She says she spends a great deal of time dispelling things her evangelical friends believe about Islam - not in defense of our religion, which she feels is from the evil, but in defense of her son - you see, she has gotten to know a Muslim family - mine - and she can see what a practicing Muslim family in America does.

I don't think you intended to side-step. I think you answered it the best way you could.

When I use the word Islam, I'm speaking about the religion, and when I use the word Muslim, I'm speaking about the people who follow it.....I now you know thins, but I want to point it out that while I think Islam is evil, I'm not saying Muslims are evil....even though I know in saying Islam is evil, I've insulted Muslims. There is no getting around that as far as communicating this topic. If the tables where turned...I'd be hurt too. I'm not trying to hurt anyone personally, but when we talk about religion.....it's going to happen and we just have to put on our thick skin.

When we say Islam should not gain a foot hold in the US, we mean the religion taking on power. In the US it has traditionally been the Christians in power for the most part. That's changing, but not to any religion really. Rather to a secular form of government.

When lawmakers where more "Christian" we passed our laws to compliment those belief structures; abortion, marriage, adoption, sexual activity...even "blue-laws". (Blue laws where state laws about what commerce could and could not take place on Sundays. Mostly here in the south)

The interesting note......if Christians totally ran this country....what freedoms would we loose today? That's a whole other post right?

The fear expressed about Islam in America (to me) is largely based on the idea of an Islamic power base writing laws that favor the religion based on Islamic law. I don't fear Muslims. How many do I know....NONE really, but that's like asking a white person how many black people they know, or have had over for dinner. That use to get kicked around by black leaders and integration-alist a lot back in the day when we had more segregation. But now that blacks and whites live and work side by side, have equal pay and such, I can tell you I only have two black friends on a block of 50/50 and most on my block won't even wave or look at me....maybe it's just me, but I go to church with one, who I've had over for dinner and we are good friends.

I live in the south where there is no segregation other than economic and I statistically fall in the upper middle college educated class, so that does not even matter...hate and fear knows no income of education I've found. But, if I live in the intercity....the hood....or whatever you want to call it....I'd be hated way more than I am on my block...HA HA HA. I guess we all still have a long way to go, right?

It's easier to play the victim when you belong to a group of people who do in fact have a few "real" victims. All you have to do is jump on the bandwagon. And, that why bigotry, both perpetrators and victims, seem to be about position more than truth. I have a few black neighbors who I know don't care for me because I'm white despite the fact that they enjoy the same economic privileges I do, the same privileges they as a group once said we kept them from, and that's why they are angry! Now that's righteous anger. However not keeping them from it did not make much of a difference. Then what about the blacks I know who I am friends with? ....I think we would have been friends if given the opportunity in 1950. To be fair...I have "Billy Bob Ray" down the street who does not like anyone....

I think the "Christian right" as you mentioned, on whole, does not want to alienate Muslims. But, we are in an interesting situation....Most of us never bothered to investigate Islam until after the 911 attacks. What we don't want is to be hated either and what many do understand is that even though we might statistically be wealthier and more privileged.....we are also hated in the world largely people who profess the religion of Islam. If we are going to share our privileges, our streets, our schools and have you over for dinner....we need to know that Islam is not going to strap on a bomb and set it off at the table......many people don't feel it right now and, while it's our obligation to understand Islam and it's people, it's Islams obligation to show us it's peaceful side, just as I feel obligated to extend a hand of friendship to my neighbors. I can't do that if I can't trust and I have to ask "why should I based on what I know."

Pardon my grammar on this post. In a hurry to meet someone for dinner.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What steps do you suggest should be taken in order to:
1) ensure the power base in this country remains judeo-christian oriented, even with an influx in native born Muslims.
2) ensure the American principals that seperate this country from the rest?

That's the magic question isn't it?
It's going to depend on the groups interested in maintained that structure. Right now social economic groups are very fractured idealistically, and that might be Americas biggest weakness.
 
I just came accross Muslims discussing this video on another forum - they explain the Muslim perspective on what is talked about in the video - and it may be an easier read than the PDF I posted.

Euro Sunni Forum • View topic - Missionary Allegations upon the Qur

Thanks MA. I read through and checked out some of those videos. I particularly liked the one regarding Nabeel Qureshi, or I should say, I was most interested in that one. The attempts to discredit him to other Muslims seemed fair to me. As for the other information to discredit the Christian video, it really speaks to Muslims.

The Christian video was presented "tongue and cheek" for the benefit of other Christians, and to ridicule the argument. Christians and Muslims will have different takes.

As a Christian I figured the Muslim response to be about what your link presented and for the most part I think it's a fair response, but it's not better than what was presented in the Christian video. Islam twist Christianity. Islam ridicules the trinity showing gross misunderstanding of it, or simply making fun of of it to try and discredit our belief. I did not pick up on anything that I did not expect from Muslims.

I keep hearing that burning Qurans is the exceptionable way of disposing of them. Why do I keep hearing that, but I hear other Muslims say if someone burns a Quran, they will be marked for death essentially? You know, protest, defending the Quran and Americans will be killed where we stand.....That stuff. Is the violent talk from some "sects" of Islam that you mentioned earlier?

Also....side note, do you have any statistics on the break down of Muslim groups? Numbers and regions.
 
Danus - I understand you hear and read what you want to because you hate Islam - but you really need to wipe that hate from your eyes.

Burning the Quran does not damage Islam in the slightest - just as burning a bible does not damage christianity.

What that guy was saying was that if Muslims do not have any reaction to the Qurans being burnt - they are weak in faith - do you understand the difference in the usage of the word?

The Islamic Faith - i.e ISLAM - is not damaged - kafirs have done much worse things than burn a Quran (which is an accepted method of destroying old unusable Qurans BTW)

But the Muslims have weak faith if it is done with our knowledge and we do not speak out against it - do you understand?

I am Islam - I did not attack anyone - and I do not condone the style of attack carried out bu the fasiqoons who did.

Secondly - who has been killed in this whole controversy? no-one - and did Muslims react by burning bibles? no.

Muslims in Afghanistan got a little roudy when protesting, but I think they have some deeper issues with America which was probably the catalyst for rioting.

The kufar have done much worse than burn our book - I think it was a symbolic thing, a blatent form of disrespect.
What can you derive from this whole episode? maybe that all over the world, Muslims are sick of being disrespected and portrayed in the manner you so politely did - maybe Muslims are sick of always having to defend our TRUE belifs from hate-mongers such as yourself who, like satan, spread lies and hate throughout the world.

keep up the good work Danus.

May I ask what the word fasiqoon means? Google has failed me D:
 
Back
Top