Modern Apostles??

[William Putnam]

I apologize Bill, I must have missed it. What does it mean to be apart of the “apostolic church†if the Catholic Church doesn’t have apostles leading it? Couldn’t the claim be made for any church with even the thinnest lines of succession?

I thought you misread me! (I was scratching my head!)

As I understand it, the full title of the Church is:

ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH

It is "catholic" because by the time the term was coined, circa AD 100, the evangelistic efforts of the Church was indeed "universal" in the then known world. It is "apostolic" because her original "charter clergy" were the apostles.

The closest any church, outside of the Catholic Church, who could comes close to claiming apostolicity are the Orthodox Churches. They are in schism from the Catholic Church, but their doctrines and practices are identical (albeit with different terms, names and neuances that do not change the doctrines) and importantly, they have valid holy orders in their ordination. If you were to attend an Eastern Rite Church, say, in Greece, which is "in union with Rome" the Divine Liturgy is exactly the same that of the schismatic Orthodox, which originated with St. John Chsostom, BTW.

And in fact, it would take little for them to return to complete unity with the Western Church - Acknowledgement of the pope in his primacy. (They recognise him as "first among equals" but not in authority over them.)

Other churches, who find themselves originating to an individual who broke away from the Catholic Church, and have broken the line of succession in their ordination rites, in the Catholic opinion, is not apostolic in origin.

You may not agree, I know, but that is off the top of my head in explaining it.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[JM]

Other churches, who find themselves originating to an individual who broke away from the Catholic Church, and have broken the line of succession in their ordination rites, in the Catholic opinion, is not apostolic in origin.

As you know Bill I was Orthodox not so long ago and when in that church was taught that the Latin Church was one broke away from the Orthodox and find themselves originating to an indivdual...the pope.

 

[William Putnam]

Other churches, who find themselves originating to an individual who broke away from the Catholic Church, and have broken the line of succession in their ordination rites, in the Catholic opinion, is not apostolic in origin.

As you know Bill I was Orthodox not so long ago and when in that church was taught that the Latin Church was one broke away from the Orthodox and find themselves originating to an indivdual...the pope.

Yes, and I recall you bringing that up earlier. I dispute that, of course.

And as you recall, I think I talked about the Letter to the Corinthians by one Clement of Rome, remember that one? In that case, Clement happened to have been the 3rd successor to Peter as Bishop of Rome!

And in that letter, Clement is mediating a dispute within the Church at Corinth, something quite odd of the Bishop pf Rome is "outside of his jurisdiction," I think...

In other words, there was an earlier time when all of the Eastern Church believe in the primacy of the successor to Peter, the first bishop of Rome.

Oh, another thing, perhaps you should return to the Orthodox community. That way, you will be subscribing to the same doctrines I do!

You would be one step closer to ME! (I'm teasing ya!) :angel:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

[JM]

Ahhhh, Bill. Again we bang heads.

Christ have mercy.

 

[William Putnam]

Ahhhh, Bill. Again we bang heads.

Christ have mercy.

Nah, we are brother's in Christ. :angel:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[Henry]

saved4life.

You know this is a christian forum, you had to come hre intentionally, you really should be repsectful ofthe beleivers here, your sarcasim is not only childish and rude, it is ignorance in action.

By the way, when do you graduate from high school anyways, I'll gladly send you are card.

Silly goose.

 

[saved4life]

Silly goose.

Daffy Duck.

 

[donadams]

Nope. Not in ancient ones either.

Then you reject Jesus Christ?

Not an accusation but a question?

Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Nope. Not in ancient ones either.

Wow! Are you really saved?

Thks

 

[donadams]

There are two types of apostle in the New testament.

The Apostles of the lamb, or Apostles of Christ. The qualification for this type of Apostolship is laid out in the Book of Acts:


As we see, such Apostles could only exist in the first century of the church!

The second types are Apostles of the Church. These are men sent as emissaries of the gospel in order to plant churches. The latter are not equal in stature to the former. Sadly many of the so-called Modern Apostles believe that somehow they are the same as Apostles of the lamb!

Scripture warns us against such:

Which one is Paul?

 

[donadams]

Howdy, Mr. Schofield! It's been a while!

I voted NO because by a strict definition, we Catholics reserve the word "apostle" to those where chosen by Jesus in the New Testament. In other words, the last of the apostles died with the death of John.

Timothy, for example, was not choosen by Christ, he being a diciple of Paul, yet he is a successor to the apostles by a "laying of on hands" thus making him a bishop, but he is not an apostle.

I have no objections to the use of "apostle" loosely as a discription of one who preaches theh gospel with great zeal, so long as it is a figure of speech that does not equate the person with the apostles of the New Testament.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

That’s why the successors of the apostles are called bishops but have the same authority!

Thks

 

[donadams]

Hay Bill,

Those who see themselves as apostles or the succors of the apostles with the same power are: the pope, cardinals, bishops, and priests. Names of prots Benny Hinn, Kenneth Haggen, Finnis Dake, etc.

In this line of thinking what is the scope of power that these “modern apostles†have?

The first the group have the same mission, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21-23
The second are self-appointed and no authority, like the so called reformers

Only Christ has authority to establish the church! Matt 16:18-19
One church! Jn 10:16 All others are sects “full of errors” “the tradition of men”! The new covenant Church is the eternal city of God! Household of faith! The pillar and ground of TRUTH! 1 Tim 3:15 Founded by Christ alone! Matt 16:18 on Peter and the apostles! Eph 2:20 Lk 22:29

The 30,000 sects (the tradition of men) having no authority at all! And holding and teaching contrary and new doctrines that oppose the Christian faith that was revealed by Christ and taught by holy mother church! Matt 28:19 acts 16:17

 

[donadams]

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
Jn 17:22 / rom 2:10 / 1 pet 1:7 Christ shares His glory with His saints!
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 Jn 15:1 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

 

[donadams]

Both scripture and the apostles have the same authority!

Both are God breathed!

Both Inspired!

Both come from the same source and are of divine origin & authority!

God is the source of truth and the author of the life of grace. Jn 1:16-17 Jn 14:6

Then why don’t you believe the Apostles; His Apostolic Church?

God is the ultimate authority, Christ is the authority of God, sent By God and therefore the Apostles; His Apostolic Church are the authority of Christ and sent by Christ!

The Apostles; His Apostolic Church is the extension of God & Christ with His authority to every place and time!

Under the explicit authority and command of Jesus Christ to teach & sanctity all men unto eternal salvation, with our obedience to them being implied! Matt 28:19 Lk 10:15 Jn 20:21-23

All under the guarantee & inspiration of the Holy Ghost! Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

Where does Christ or scripture ever say: “this applies to what they have written ALONE”?

The apostles taught us in person, preaching teaching as the witnesses of Christ (acts 1:8 & 16:17) and the “Mouthpiece of God”!

Thirty plus years before the first letter of the Gospel or New Testament was written, Christ handed down (tradition) or transmitted the fullness of truth to the Apostles; His Apostolic Church, and they exercised authority, teaching, and sanctifying. (administration of baptism, and the sacraments)

Then decades later some of the Apostles wrote some of these truths under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost!

The fullness of divine revelation was complete with the ascension of Christ, and there is no new public revelation, but the apostolic authority continues in the threefold mission that of His Apostolic Church, teach, govern, and to sanctify!

Sacred Scripture & Tradition are God breathed and inspired!

All Christians are bound (Matt 16:18-19 & 18:17-18) to believe and obey! (Rom 16:26)

If God is the ultimate authority and Christ is sent by God and exercise His authority then Christ is also the ultimate or equal authority!

If the apostles are sent by Christ and exercise His authority, and act in His name then the Apostles or His Apostolic Church are also the ultimate or equal authority!

Sacred Scripture & Tradition have equal authority and are the ultimate authority!

Verified by scripture:

2 thes 2:15
Matt 16:18-19
Matt 18:17
Matt 18:18
Matt 28:19-20
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21-23
Acts 1:1-2
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 16:17


The holy gesture (sign of the cross) in its roots was a prayer in apostolic times.

Fourth-century Father of the Church St. Basil (329–379) said that the Apostles “taught us to mark with the sign of the cross those who put their hope in the Lord”—that is, those who presented themselves for Baptism.

Notice the level of authority He assigned to this statement: “the Apostles taught us”!

He could not say that if He believed that Sacred scripture was the “only authority”!

 

[oldprophet]

Why or how do they call themselves apostles and lack the same gifts? If they are indeed apostle then there writings would be inspired as the 12 original apostles are…wouldn’t it makes sense that they fit the same mold?

I don't understand Latin or Aramaic: some Greek though

 

[Free]

This thread is from 2003. None of the other posters are here anymore.