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Re: Position vs. Practical

AVBunyan said:
Our duty then?
color=blue] Eccles. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil".


What happens when one doesn’t know his standing.
That is what the 10 commandments are for....to look at, and judge ourselves, as to whether we are living up to the standard which Christ set for us as Christians:

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we (Christians) establish the law".

Jesus Christ is depending upon us....to reveal what Righteousness is to the world:

Psalms 119:172 "My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness".
 
Re: Salvation

AVBunyan said:
May I ask a point blank question Jay-T?

What are you counting on to get you to heaven?
Faith in Jesus Christ alone.
 
Re: Salvation

Judy said:
:o Good answer, but that isn't what you been preaching around here. :-?

I agree with Judy - she is eactly right on the point above.

Let's go a bit further - are you trusting "your faith" in Christ or Christ alone? There is a difference.

God bless
 
Re: Salvation

Judy said:
Jay T said:
AVBunyan said:
May I ask a point blank question Jay-T?

What are you counting on to get you to heaven?
Faith in Jesus Christ alone.

:o Good answer, but that isn't what you been preaching around here. :-?
I knew you'd say that !

I was going to write out a lot of things, but then I decided to write just those few words, in one sentence....hoping you would not just accept that one sentence.
Faith results in works....God's works in the human agent.....which is "RIGHTEOUSNESS by FAITH".

No man can keep the 10 commandments, by human strenght alone !
But without works...faith is of no value.
James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?
can faith save him?

2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead ?"


The ultimate example of faith and works, is shown us by God ...as He points out His true people:
"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12)

There is pointed out the 2 main characteristics of the true Christ:
#1.) having the faith Jesus had....
#2.) which results in keeping all 10 commandments of God.

Just remember....
Phillipians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always [obeyed], not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [work out your own salvation] with fear and trembling".
2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure".

It is God that does the works...in the individual, who is surrendered to God.
 
Re: Salvation

Jay T said:
No man can keep the 10 commandments, by human strenght alone !
But without works...faith is of no value.

There is pointed out the 2 main characteristics of the true Christ:
#1.) having the faith Jesus had....
#2.) which results in keeping all 10 commandments of God.

So, keeping the 10 commandments is the test?

Question - do you keep all the 10 commandments all the time?
What are the consequences if you don't?

God bless
 
Re: Salvation

AVBunyan said:
Jay T said:
No man can keep the 10 commandments, by human strenght alone !
But without works...faith is of no value.

There is pointed out the 2 main characteristics of the true Christ:
#1.) having the faith Jesus had....
#2.) which results in keeping all 10 commandments of God.
So, keeping the 10 commandments is the test?
Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?"
[quote:biggrin63e8]
Question - do you keep all the 10 commandments all the time?
That question is only between God and any individual, that claims to be a Christian.
Remember...we are not to judge another person.
If I said yes, I keep all 10 commandments, you would then judge me.
And, if I said no...I don't keep the commandments all the time...you would judge me.
What are the consequences if you don't?
[/quote:biggrin63e8]Remember.....the commandments, is the standard to be used, on the Day of God's Judgment (Ecclesiastes 12:13,14....James 2:10-12)

And beings that the Christian has access to God's word, the Bible....they will be Judged... first:


1 Peter 4:17 "For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved...."
 
Judgin

Personally I think you are coping out by using the old "judging me" card.

You are at liberty to ask me the same questions and I wouldn't think you were judging me - why do you take this "judgming me" approach then?

To me it is a way to avoid the issue.
 
Re: Judgin

AVBunyan said:
You are at liberty to ask me the same questions and I wouldn't think you were judging me -
NO WAY !
why do you take this "judging me" approach then?
Because the God has set up the SDA church, to give the Judgment message of Revelation 14:6,7......to the world, just before Christ returns to earth.

To me it is a way to avoid the issue.
It may seem to you to be that way.....but until you understand what is involved in the Judgment process completely....you have no idea how the Judgment Day of God, goes.
 
Message

Because the God has set up the SDA church, to give the Judgment message of Revelation 14:6,7......to the world, just before Christ returns to earth.

Why would God give the SDA a message that will be doctrinally for the future tribulation and then have you folks apply it for this present church age?

Now we have two questions Jay-T:

1. Do you sin?
2. Are you planning on going through the great tribulation?

Also - I don't want to put a damper on the meeting here but Rev. 14:6,7 is not the gospel to be preached today - the gospel to be preached today is Paul's gospel - and Paul is very clear on what that gospel is (I Cor. 15:1-5) - and besides that he declares that if one were to preach any other gospel than his gospel today you've got problems:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

God bless
 
Re: Message

AVBunyan said:
Why would God give the SDA a message that will be doctrinally for the future tribulation and then have you folks apply it for this present church age?
Those who endeavor to obey all the commandments of God will be opposed and derided. They can stand only in God. In order to endure the trial before them, they must understand the will of God as revealed in His word; they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them.

None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict.

To every soul will come the searching test: Shall I obey God rather than men?
The decisive hour is even now at hand. Are our feet planted on the rock of God's immutable word?
Are we prepared to stand firm in defense of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus?


Are you planning on going through the great tribulation?
Of course ! Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.
24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Also - I don't want to put a damper on the meeting here but Rev. 14:6,7 is not the gospel to be preached today
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the [everlasting gospel] to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, And since the gospel was told to Adam and Eve....
- the gospel to be preached today is Paul's gospel
And, all this time I thought Jesus Christ was Lord and Savior....silly me.

-
and Paul is very clear on what that gospel is (I Cor. 15:1-5)
And, so you think I should throw out the rest of the Bible scriptures as, not of any importance ?

-
and besides that he declares that if one were to preach any other gospel than his gospel today you've got problems:
I see, then you might object to God's warnings about Paul's writings ?
[coor=blue]1 Peter.....even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction".[/color]

There is nothing wrong, with Paul's writing...as long, as they are in harmony, with every other scripture of the [whole] Bible !
 
Missed teh pooint

Jay-T - you missed my point - you preach another gospel today besides Paul's - this is dangerous according to :

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
Re: Missed teh pooint

AVBunyan said:
Jay-T - you missed my point - you preach another gospel today besides Paul's
Is Paul the one who saves me ?
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Is this the your whole Bible ?

I perceive that you are trying to force me to choose between Jesus Christ and Paul.....And I won't do it, because there is no difference between them.
 
Re: Missed teh pooint

Jay T said:
1. Is Paul the one who saves me ?

2. Is this the your whole Bible ?

Pitiful - Jay - pitiful

1. No, the Christ he preached does save and your gospel doesn't match Paul's gospel about Christ.

2. Where would you get that idea - I read it all but I know whom God told me to go to today to get my doctrine.

I do hope folks on this forum see what is going on here.
 
Re: Missed teh pooint

Transformed by Grace

In the life of the disciple John true sanctification is exemplified.
During the years of his close association with Christ, he was often warned and cautioned by the Saviour; and these reproofs he accepted. As the character of the Divine One was manifested to him, John saw his own deficiencies, and was humbled by the revelation.
Day by day, in contrast with his own violent spirit, he beheld the tenderness and forbearance of Jesus, and heard His lessons of humility and patience. Day by day his heart was drawn out to Christ, until he lost sight of self in love for his Master. The power and tenderness, the majesty and meekness, the strength and patience, that he saw in the daily life of the Son of God, filled his soul with admiration. He yielded his resentful, ambitious temper to the molding power of Christ, and divine love wrought in him a transformation of character.

In striking contrast to the sanctification worked out in the life of John is the experience of his fellow disciple, Judas. Like his associate, Judas professed to be a disciple of Christ, but he possessed only a form of godliness. He was not insensible to the beauty of the character of Christ; and often, as he listened to the Saviour's words, conviction came to him, but he would not humble his heart or confess his sins. By resisting the divine influence he dishonored the Master whom he professed to love. John warred earnestly against his faults; but Judas violated his conscience and yielded to temptation, fastening upon himself more securely his habits of evil. The practice of the truths that Christ taught was at variance with his desires and purposes, and he could not bring himself to yield his ideas in order to receive wisdom from heaven. Instead of walking in the light, he chose to walk in darkness. Evil desires, covetousness, revengeful passions, dark and sullen thoughts, were cherished until Satan gained full control of him.

John and Judas are representatives of those who profess to be Christ's followers. Both these disciples had the same opportunities to study and follow the divine Pattern. Both were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching. Each possessed serious defects of character; and each had access to the divine grace that transforms character. But while one in humility was learning of Jesus, the other revealed that he was not a doer of the word, but a hearer only. One, daily dying to self and overcoming sin, was sanctified through the truth; the other, resisting the transforming power of grace and indulging selfish desires, was brought into bondage to Satan.

Such transformation of character as is seen in the life of John is ever the result of communion with Christ. There may be marked defects in the character of an individual, yet when he becomes a true disciple of Christ, the power of divine grace transforms and sanctifies him. Beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, he is changed from glory to glory, until he is like Him whom he adores.

John was a teacher of holiness, and in his letters to the church he laid down unerring rules for the conduct of Christians. "Every man that hath this hope in him," he wrote, "purifieth himself, even as He is pure." "He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." 1 John 3:3; 2:6. He taught that the Christian must be pure in heart and life. Never should he be satisfied with an empty profession. As God is holy in His sphere, so fallen man, through faith in Christ, is to be holy in his sphere.

"This is the will of God," the apostle Paul wrote, "even your sanctification." 1 Thessalonians 4:3. The sanctification of the church is God's object in all His dealings with His people. He has chosen them from eternity, that they might be holy. He gave His Son to die for them, that they might be sanctified through obedience to the truth, divested of all the littleness of self. From them He requires a personal work, a personal surrender. God can be honored by those who profess to believe in Him, only as they are conformed to His image and controlled by His Spirit. Then, as witnesses for the Saviour, they may make known what divine grace has done for them.

True sanctification comes through the working out of the principle of love. "God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." 1 John 4:16. The life of him in whose heart Christ abides, will reveal practical godliness. The character will be purified, elevated, ennobled, and glorified. Pure doctrine will blend with works of righteousness; heavenly precepts will mingle with holy practices.

Those who would gain the blessing of sanctification must first learn the meaning of self-sacrifice. The cross of Christ is the central pillar on which hangs the "far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." "If any man will come after Me," Christ says, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." 2 Corinthians 4:17; Matthew 16:24. It is the fragrance of our love for our fellow men that reveals our love for God. It is patience in service that brings rest to the soul. It is through humble, diligent, faithful toil that the welfare of Israel is promoted. God upholds and strengthens the one who is willing to follow in Christ's way.

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained.

Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words.

The apostle Paul had been caught up to the third heaven and had seen and heard things that could not be uttered, and yet his unassuming statement is: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after." Philippians 3:12. Let the angels of heaven write of Paul's victories in fighting the good fight of faith. Let heaven rejoice in his steadfast tread heavenward, and that, keeping the prize in view, he counts every other consideration dross. Angels rejoice to tell his triumphs, but Paul makes no boast of his attainments. The attitude of Paul is the attitude that every follower of Christ should take as he urges his way onward in the strife for the immortal crown.

Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, they will not boast of sinlessness. "If we," says John, not separating himself from his brethren, "say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8, 10, 9.

There are those who profess holiness, who declare that they are wholly the Lord's, who claim a right to the promises of God, while refusing to render obedience to His commandments.

These transgressors of the law claim everything that is promised to the children of God; but this is presumption on their part, for John tells us that true love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments.

It is not enough to believe the theory of truth, to make a profession of faith in Christ, to believe that Jesus is no impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments," John wrote, "is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him." "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him." 1 John 2:4, 5; 3:24.

John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law.

There are many who, though striving to obey God's commandments, have little peace or joy. This lack in their experience is the result of a failure to exercise faith. They walk as it were in a salt land, a parched wilderness. They claim little, when they might claim much; for there is no
limit to the promises of God. Such ones do not correctly represent the sanctification that comes through obedience to the truth. The Lord would have all His sons and daughters happy, peaceful, and obedient. Through the exercise of faith the believer comes into possession of these blessings. Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed.

Prayer is heaven's ordained means of success in the conflict with sin and the development of Christian character. The divine influences that come in answer to the prayer of faith will accomplish in the soul of the suppliant all for which he pleads. For the pardon of sin, for the Holy Spirit, for a Christlike temper, for wisdom and strength to do His work, for any gift He has promised, we may ask; and the promise is, "Ye shall receive."

It was in the mount with God that Moses beheld the pattern of that wonderful building that was to be the abiding place of His glory. It is in the mount with God--in the secret place of communion--that we are to contemplate His glorious ideal for humanity. In all ages, through the medium of communion with heaven, God has worked out His purpose for His children, by unfolding gradually to their minds the doctrines of grace. His manner of imparting truth is illustrated in the words, "His going forth is prepared as the morning." Hosea 6:3. He who places himself where God can enlighten him, advances, as it were, from the partial obscurity of dawn to the full radiance of noonday.

True sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, perfect conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to God through obedience to the truth. Our conscience must be purged from dead works to serve the living God. We are not yet perfect; but it is our privilege to cut away from the entanglements of self and sin, and advance to perfection. Great possibilities, high and holy attainments, are placed within the reach of all.
The reason many in this age of the world make no greater advancement in the divine life is because they interpret the will of God to be just what they will to do. While following their own desires, they flatter themselves that they are conforming to God's will. These have no conflicts with self. There are others who for a time are successful in the struggle against their selfish desire for pleasure and ease. They are sincere and earnest, but grow weary of protracted effort, of daily death, of ceaseless turmoil. Indolence seems inviting, death to self repulsive; and they close their drowsy eyes and fall under the power of temptation instead of resisting it.

The directions laid down in the word of God leave no room for compromise with evil. The Son of God was manifested that He might draw all men unto Himself. He came not to lull the world to sleep, but to point out the narrow path in which all must travel who reach at last the gates of the City of God. His children must follow where He has led the way; at whatever sacrifice of ease or selfish indulgence, at whatever cost of labor or suffering, they must maintain a constant battle with self.
Acts of the Apostles, chapter 55, By E.G.White
 
Rule 11 - Respect copyrighted material:
When you copy/paste material please supply a link(s) to your source(s). It is a good idea to do that for two reasons.

A- it gives everyone the chance to check you sources...

B- it gives the credit to the originator of the information and avoids copyright infringement problems.
 
Free said:
Rule 11 - Respect copyrighted material:
When you copy/paste material please supply a link(s) to your source(s). It is a good idea to do that for two reasons.

A- it gives everyone the chance to check you sources...

B- it gives the credit to the originator of the information and avoids copyright infringement problems.

Thanks Free - I appreciated that :wink:

God bless
 
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