Pre, Mid, Post, Pre-wrath

[JM]

Which do you believe?

 

[JM]

I lean toward pre wrath and pray for a pre trib. Drake is the man to help explain the pre wrath rapture.

 

[Scott]

Drake is the man

I hope SHE doesn't take offense to that. : :

 

[Scott]

Hey Scofield, I think pre-wrath and mid are the same thing.

 

[Judy]

Drake is the man

I hope SHE doesn't take offense to that. : :

No offense taken, He had no way of knowing.


Darkcell as to Pre-Wrath being the same as Mid-Trib not exactly, In Mid-Trib you have the rapture occurring at the mid point :roll: : and with Pre-Wrath it occurs in the second half of the seven year tribulation.


What Pre-Wrath is:

the first 3 1/2 years .....................l....................the second 3 1/2years

The first 3 1/2years is just the beginning of birth pang...with wars rumors of wars then there will be famines and earth quakes.
Then with all the turmoil going on in the world it will be ripe for the Antichrist to step on the scene and bring with him a false peace. It isn't until the second 3 1/2 years that Antichrist reveils who he really is and sit himself up in the Temple of God and demand to be worship...and demands that everyone take the mark of the beast or you will suffer his wrath.
Rev.12:7. And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8. but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
12. "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.''

What we need to understand is that the whole 7 years is not the wrath of God. I believe and the scriptures show that the wrath of God doesn't start until the sixth seal is opened in Revelation 6:12 - 17. That is where you see the cosmic disturbances spoken of in Matthew 24: with the sign of His coming. And in revelation 6:17 you have a clear announcement that The Great Day of His wrath has come and who is abel to stand, Then in the seventh chapter of Rev. you have the sealing of the 144,000 and a Great multitude that no one can number standing before the Throne . This great multitude I believe to be the church. The church was promised that we will not go through God's wrath..the 144,000 are the Jews and unfortunately the jews will go through it all Satans wrath and God's wrath. With just the 144,000 being sealed for their protection.

First the persecution by Antichrist against the elect of God (Satan's wrath), then God's deliverance of the faithful (the Rapture), followed by the Day of the Lord ( God's wrath upon those who remain).

Both Matthew 24 and Revelation accounts are given in the context of Christ's warning that what is revealed in those passages must be taken seriously by His followes.(Matt.24:4 cf. Rev. 22:19)

Both accounts begin their descriptions of the last days with a refence to false Christs-- the first seal ( Matt.24: 5; cf. Rev. 6:1-2).

Both accounts warn of wars and rumors of wars-- the second seal ( Matt. 24:6-7; cf. Rev. 6:3-4).

Both accounts warns of a great time of famine-- the third seal ( Matt. 24; cf. Rev. 6:5-6).

Both accounts warn of a time of intense persecution of God's elect -- the fourth seal ( Matt. 24:9,21; cf. Rev. 6:7-8).

Both accouts make reference to the martyrdom of the elect, God's saints--the fifth seal (Matt.24:22; cf. Rev. 6:11).

Both accounts show that sometime during Antichrist's persecution of God's elect, a sign will be given in the sun, moon, and stars, announcing the Day of the Lord's wrath --the sixth seal (Matt. 24:29; cr. Rev. 6:12-17).

Both accounts show the rapture--deliverance--of God's elect from out of the midst of the "great tribulation," abruptly terminating Antichrist's persecution of God' elect just before the wrath of God begins--the interlude between the sixth and seventh seals(Matt. 24:29-31; cf. Rev.7:9-14).

Both accounts show the commencement of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord-- The seventh seal (Matt. 24:37-39; cf. Rev. 8:1-7).

So the major events described in the Olivet Discourse parallel the major events described in the book of revelation, right up to and including the breaking of the seventh seal when the wrath of God begins.

At the precise point that the Olivet Discourse shows the elect of God being gathered from the four winds by the angels of Christ, when the great tribulation associated with Antichrist is cut short, the book of Revelation shows a great multitude, without number, coming out from the midst of the great tribulation by Antichrist and suddenly arriving in Heaven, before the throne of God, with their resurrection bodies.

Sorry I didn't mean to make this so long :

 

[Scott]

What Pre-Wrath is:

the first 3 1/2 years .....................l....................the second 3 1/2years

You meant Mid trib is right at 3 1/2 years right?

I think a lot of the confusion between these two are that there are many different ideas about when mid trib occurs (some think its not necessarily right at 3 1/2). Some who claim to believe mid trib (and they still call it that) actually believe pre-wrath because they believe the rapture happens just before God pours out His wrath on the earth.

 

[Judy]

Sorry Darkcell, I am working on just about 3 hours sleep. And had all kinds of scripture running through my head and I wasn't sure which way to go first.

But to simplify it, Pre- Wrath is exactly as you say, we will be raptured before God pours out His wrath. As I said in my earlier post the opening of the sixth seal is the announcement that God's wrath is about to start.

 

[Scott]

Sorry Darkcell, I am working on just about 3 hours sleep.

Thats ok your not the only one, it seems like every post I've written today I've had to go back and edit. :

 

[JM]

Sorry Drake : , but you still d'man. :

 

[Vic C.]

LMBO@Scofield! 8)

 

[Judy]

 

[Judy]

Bump

 

[JM]

bump

 

[Zero Link]

edit:

If lecoop doesn't mind i would like to post a pm we had yesterday, I think this makes perfect sense. Coop, if you do mind just let me know and I will edit my post:

Lecoop, do you believe in the pre trib rapture? If so tell me why you do. If not, tell me why you don't?

Alot of people are saying its not going to happen because the elects are mentioned in the great trib, and it says the anti-christ will go after the Godly ones.

And have the 4th seal passed yet? Is it time for the great trib to happen?

Coop:
Yes, most certainly I do believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I have been accused of being a "partial preterist." Why? Because I know that the "trib" or the 70th week starts with the 7th seal. His wrath also starts there, so in effect, I am pre-trib and prewrath! Why do I believe this? First, we are to be saved from His wrath. Second, John sees the raptured church in heaven, just before the 7th seal is broken. That is to say, just before the start of the day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel.

Don't be thrown by the words "the great tribulation" in the discription of the great crowd. All God means here by "great tribulation" is great pressure being put on Christians. Even today, in some parts of the world, people are being killed just because they are Christians. What God is telling us here, is that it will be this way around the globe just before the rapture of the church. At the time that John sees this great crowd, the 70th week has not even started, so God cannot be saying that these came out of that time after the abomination that comes at the midpoint of the week. Everyone would believe this is the raptured church, if they understood these words, "great tribulation." It is not referring to a specific time, but to what life will be like just before the rapture.

Next, JOhn sees the church in heaven, at the marriage supper, in chapter 19. It would not make any sense that part of the church stayed on earth, while those that died before attended the wedding! No, all the church will be there!

Last, it is totally against the charactor of God that His bride go through His wrath. That is just silly to think that.

People say a lot of things on these forums, but alas, most of them are confused! They just do not understand much of the end times. God called the Jews His elect long before the church existed. In fact, when Jesus gave the Olivet discourse, where this "elect" is mentioned, the church did not exist. The main thrust of His discourse was Daniel's 70th week, which has nothing to do with the church. Therefore,this mention of gathering together HIs elect is referring to bringing all the Jews back to Israel. He promised to do it, and in one place, He said He would do it in a day. Therefore, don't be confused about the "elect."

Of course the antichrist will go after the Jews, and then after those that refuse his mark. But wait - many born again people will miss the rapture, because they are living in the world, and not looking for His coming. They are living in sin, and know they are, but don't want to change. Jesus is coming for those that are looking for Him. Therefore, there will be many Christians left. Then immediately after the rapture, there will be millions turn to God, for they wake up and realize that they missed Him. However, will these be around after the midpoint? Somehow, they MUST get to heaven for the marriage, for God will not have only part of His church there. Therefore, I am convinced that there will be a second rapture, to take the rest of His church to heaven.

After all, the two witnesses are raptured. The 144,000 are raptured. It is written that at the 7th trumpet, the mystery of God would be finished. I believe this is the mystery of God in the Gentiles. Therefore, the age of the church will close at the midpoint of the week. The fulness of the Gentiles will have all come in at that time, and the church will be closed. However, many will still turn to God after the midpoint. They will believe the messages of the angels and turn and worship God. They will refuse the mark, and most will be put to death. Those that survive, will attend the sheep and goat judgment, and then will go into the millennial kingdom.

So there will be God's people on earth during that second half of the week - it just won't be members of His church. IMO

Where are we now? The first five seals have been broken, and we are waiting for the sixth, and the great earthquake. Did you notice at Jesus death, that there was a resurrection? And what else? A great earthquake! It seems then, that resurrections and earthquakes go together. I am convinced that the rapture of the church, and the ressurection of the dead in christ, take place at the 6th seal, just before the 70th week will start.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey zero, you may want to scroll up and read Judy's post. She does a decent job of outlining some end times events... using scripture too. 8-)

Also, though in this case, it seems to be harmless, but we do have rules against posting PM's.

8 - No harassing members via PM. No public posting of PMs.

 

[jgredline]

This post deserves to be revived.
Pre trib here.