This Fool Deserves Death

[stovebolts]

I see what you're saying, Jeff. Although I would not call that "anger". I would call that "resolve", because, just from a vocabulary sense, I don't equate anger with careful consideration to make change, but rather a more reactionary less thoughtful emotion. But that's semantics, and I see what you are saying.

The responses here that are making me sad are not the ones that seek to carefully address the problem and make change or create safety. The ones that make me sad are the uncontrolled reactionary desire to "pull the switch" and do something "he deserves".

So I think we are saying the same thing with different words.

(interesting note: anger comes from the Norse word for "grief". And I agree with you that often anger comes from grief and fear.)
(Which is perhaps the source of this man's angry crime.)

It may be in part semantics. But with our sadness, we do one of two things generally. We go into apathy, which means we don't do anything, or we go into anger, which attempts to resolve the issue.

I have found that men don't stay in apathy very long. We are action oreinted. We want to fix things, and fix them now, right wrong or indifferent. Women, on the other side generally are more passive, and have a tendancy to go into apathy more readily, and their anger (action to resolve the issue) is usually well thought out and doesn't present itself with bitterness.

I think that's why God made us different lol! I think it's so we could complement each other in that area.

But yes, I believe that this man committed that crime when his grief turned into anger because he couldn't control the world around him. Life wasn't the way he thought it was supposed to be. In short, he was selfish, so his anger turned to hatred because anger can make a man feel strong, and in control over something that isn't controllable. He wanted to control his feelings, and he couldn't... but he could control something that he was never intended to control, nor could he control.. His child. And he did so by taking his life. That's evil, plain evil.

 

[Pizzaguy]

http://www.christianforums.net/f34/eye-eye-38307/#post567676

What an excellent post!

 

[Pizzaguy]

I'm still here, just reading. It's kind of sad for me, though. As I read people who earnestly feel that someone "deserves" death, I wonder, "isn't that the logic that this killer used?" We all agree he was totally deranged, but that was his logic, "if I think someone 'deserves' death, it's okay for me to do it." And the discussion bringing all kinds of scripture and justification for making retribution violence okay.

So I haven't been commenting, but I've been reading. It makes me very very sad to experience watching people feel (what they think is) justifiably violent. Anger is a poison in the heart, is my belief. Yes we get angry, that's human, and it's still a poison every time. So it's hard on my heart to watch people embrace anger. It feels very dark and full of anguish to me.

Not so sure I'm angry at this guy - I am repulsed, sickened, offended and cannot stop thinking about the boy who he killed.

The difference between me/us and the killer is that our position that he should die is based on HIS actions, his position that the boy should die was based on his own thoughts. Had he not killed the boy, none of us would be calling for his execution.

Ours is a response to a despicable act. His is a response to some demented, sick, psychopathic thought process. It is for this reason that we can't understand your position any more than you can understand ours. But keep posting, you have a unique talent in posting a position I disagree with and cannot understand, but you do so in a very mature manner. ;)

 

[Classik]

Just out of curiosity, why is that painful?

Why is a sincere repentance and redemption painful? Isn't that the most beautiful thing? For an evil deed to be understood, regretted and repented?

I nearly missed this.
It is the most beautiful thing for a Villan to make heaven. What I mean by being painful is that most of these People killed by the Villan enter into condemnation While the Villan at the slightest chance of repentance enter heaven. It is painful to the ones who lost someone.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I nearly missed this.
... most of these People killed by the Villan enter into condemnation While the Villan at the slightest chance of repentance enter heaven.

I'm not so sure that is true.

But then, I'm not so sure our interpretation of God's word is all that accurate in all things. If God is just (and I believe He is), it could be that we are reading into the Biblical text some stuff that just isn't true. OVERALL, when I read the Bible, I read statements that affirm God's fairness and concern for the downtrodden. I read verses that tell me all the things that keep an individual out of heaven... not all the ways in which a creep can get into heaven ahead of his victim (who supposedly gets no second chance because a creep killed them without warning.)

God is fine, He is just. I think it's us believers who are confused.

 

[Classik]

I'm not so sure that is true.

But then, I'm not so sure our interpretation of God's word is all that accurate in all things. If God is just (and I believe He is), it could be that we are reading into the Biblical text some stuff that just isn't true. OVERALL, when I read the Bible, I read statements that affirm God's fairness and concern for the downtrodden. I read verses that tell me all the things that keep an individual out of heaven... not all the ways in which a creep can get into heaven ahead of his victim (who supposedly gets no second chance because a creep killed them without warning.)

God is fine, He is just. I think it's us believers who are confused.

Thanks for your response.
you know, I have my perspective. I believe it is biblical. God allows human laws. If Christ forgave Saul the killer and converted him into Paul the saver (and knowing he was worse than this man who butchered the baby) can't we forgive too? We look at the magnitude of his offence when this man and a liar are the same hell candidates. I don't mean to justify his offence.
God forgave us and reconciled us unto Himself after we killed the Son.

 

[Rhea]

The difference between me/us and the killer is that our position that he should die is based on HIS actions, his position that the boy should die was based on his own thoughts.
[...]
Ours is a response to a despicable act.[/U] His is a response to some demented, sick, psychopathic thought process. It is for this reason that we can't understand your position any more than you can understand ours.

I hear what you are saying, I just don't feel personally I have anywhere near enough information yet on his frame of mind to know whether it is selfishness or something like psychosis or even PTSD.

I have no idea and I'm not able to assume the worst (deliberate selfishness). And, I suppose, even contemplating deliberate selfishness, that seems so Not-Normal to me that I immediately shift again to assuming a mental state over which this man had no rational control. And given that, am I ready to think about ending his life without finding out whether medication can return him to sanity (probably guilt-plagued, but at least rational) or whether he is beyond hope? Is he a combat vet with untreated PTSD that has had a horrible result? I can't already rule that out.

For me, I'm just not in a place to decide I have enough information to make that call for death, yet.

So, I do understand in some ways, but in others I don't follow what has enabled such a drastic call with so little information. Such readiness to make a call for death, based only on a newspaper article.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Ok, Rhea - that is understandable.

And I admit, this may not make any difference to you, but a guy on TheSpaceport posted this:

Each person who commits the crime of murder knows that there will be a penalty if they are caught, and that the penalty could include execution. The penalty acts in two ways. First as a punishment for breaking society's rules, and second as a deterrent to dissuade others from breaking those rules. A penalty is not a deterrent if it is never imposed. The point is, that each person knows about this before they commit the crime. In committing the crime, they effectively accept the penalty. If they accept it, why should we not impose it?

 

[stovebolts]

Ok, Rhea - that is understandable.

And I admit, this may not make any difference to you, but a guy on TheSpaceport posted this:

Each person who commits the crime of murder knows that there will be a penalty if they are caught, and that the penalty could include execution. The penalty acts in two ways. First as a punishment for breaking society's rules, and second as a deterrent to dissuade others from breaking those rules. A penalty is not a deterrent if it is never imposed. The point is, that each person knows about this before they commit the crime. In committing the crime, they effectively accept the penalty. If they accept it, why should we not impose it?

You know, it's almost funny because I was thinking the very same thing shortly after my last post. It's almost like saying, "If I touch this burner, I shouldn't have to be burnt". Simple reasoning states that if you put your hand on a hot stove, you will be burnt. Physics isn't going to be forgiving if you jump off a cliff, and if your bent on jumping off a cliff, then you should expect the worse, because if you think your going to just walk away, then physics has a simple lesson for ya. Know what I mean?

Rhea, I understand and respect your view on the death penalty, and I understand your struggle with it. Personally, I struggle with it too. But in my struggle, I want to make a very clear line in the sand that states what this man has done is beyond horrific. Furthermore, I would like to add that such a person cannot be trusted. But before we delve too deeply into this man's psych, what about the victim in this case? What about the mother, the grand mother, aunts and uncles and everyone else this boy's life touched? What's been done has been done and it will effect everybody directly involved for the rest of their lives. From that perspective, I believe that what you or I believe in the matter of the death penalty should be set aside for those grieving the most. In concordance with the state they live in, it should be their decision. They should have the biggest say.

When a raging wolf comes running at you, you don't ask it about it's puppyhood...

 

[Elijah674]

I'm still here, just reading. It's kind of sad for me, though. As I read people who earnestly feel that someone "deserves" death, I wonder, "isn't that the logic that this killer used?" We all agree he was totally deranged, but that was his logic, "if I think someone 'deserves' death, it's okay for me to do it." And the discussion bringing all kinds of scripture and justification for making retribution violence okay.

So I haven't been commenting, but I've been reading. It makes me very very sad to experience watching people feel (what they think is) justifiably violent. Anger is a poison in the heart, is my belief. Yes we get angry, that's human, and it's still a poison every time. So it's hard on my heart to watch people embrace anger. It feels very dark and full of anguish to me.

Surely I can't or would not want to try to read anothers heart. But your post does come across clear to me. The whole object of God JUSTLY Executing of the lost, is becauseHe could do no more to save them. (Isa. 5:4, verse 5 is a last resort)

He even has it as His STRANGE ACT.(Obad. 1:16's) Not because of it being a pleasure per/say to do so, but a necessity. Nah. 1:9

People read the stories in the OT where it is even Christ/God having the execution done as His own Theocracy, and do not see the story such as Joshua 7 with Achan having many opportunities to come forward in repentance with both he & his family!

I have often stated that we on the forums should not respond to people as a good rule, but to the [message] of the poster, and the reason being is that most never understand that we are to hate 'evil' but never the person.

But that is as Christ endured, huh! Matt. 10:25's misunderstanding. ;)

--Elijah

 

[stovebolts]

I have often stated that we on the forums should not respond to people as a good rule, but to the [message] of the poster, and the reason being is that most never understand that we are to hate 'evil' but never the person.

Hi E :waving

For me, it's not a matter of hating the Evil, but not the person. It's a matter of what we do with the evil inside a person once it's been identified.

You know that I'm a firm believer that evil, like darkness is simply the removal of light, or goodness. Just as a light consumes the darkness, good overcomes evil because good, is something we do, and evil is something we either do not do, or fail to do.

So the question isn't what we don't do about this matter, because it would be evil in itself to do nothing, or vasalate. The question is, "What do we do".

 

[Elijah674]

What an excellent post!

Hi, Bolts has a qualification in there, did you catch that? He says:

[It may be in part semantics. But with our sadness, we do one of two things generally. We go into apathy, which means we don't do anything, or we go into anger, which attempts to resolve the issue.]

It is the qualification of 'generally' that is crucial for Christians as 'i' see it. We should have God train ourselves to act only on His Agape Recreated LOVEING PRINCIPLE.

Whatever one does has to have this LOVING PRINCIPLE MATURED by lifes end. Excitement, noise, fear, [EMOTION] should never be the reason behind [DUTY].

Christ LOVED US & went to the Cross [feeling] seperated from the Father, His True LOVE was an MORAL 'MAN MATURED' PRINCIPLE!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Hi E :waving

For me, it's not a matter of hating the Evil, but not the person. It's a matter of what we do with the evil inside a person once it's been identified.

You know that I'm a firm believer that evil, like darkness is simply the removal of light, or goodness. Just as a light consumes the darkness, good overcomes evil because good, is something we do, and evil is something we either do not do, or fail to do.

So the question isn't what we don't do about this matter, because it would be evil in itself to do nothing, or vasalate. The question is, "What do we do".

Two of us at least think that it needs to be left up to a court to at least hear testimony.

What you do not want is the repeat of riots that are seen overseas. It will come, but we need to do everything 'lawful' to have our USA constitution protected for all people!;) And soon we will see that tossed out by an up or down vote.

--Elijah

 

[stovebolts]

Two of us at least think that it needs to be left up to a court to at least hear testimony.

What you do not want is the repeat of riots that are seen overseas. It will come, but we need to do everything 'lawful' to have our USA constitution protected for all people!;) And soon we will see that tossed out by an up or down vote.

--Elijah

Amen Brother.

 

[kiwimac]

Capital Punishment simply makes US like those who kill, it is not acceptable for a Christian to be involved with it, indeed in the early church it was grounds for immediate excommunication.

 

[jasoncran]

show me that fact as statement from the ecfs please.

oh trust me the nation of isreal doesnt execute the terrorists they make their lives so miserable they will want to die.

forced hard labor. or death.

which is better?