Tribulation

[faithtransforms]

I'm sure there has been plenty of conversation in this forum regarding the timing of the rapture of the church. But, since I am pretty new here, I thought I would bring it up and find out everyone's opinions. I personally would LOVE to believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I have read the entire new testament at least once, and many books several times, but I can find absolutely no scriptural support for it. I would love the "pre-tribbers" here to show the scriptural evidence for their point of view. Also, if you are mid or post trib, what scriptures support your point of view.

As far as I can tell, in the following passage from Matthew, Jesus is saying that at the end of the tribulation, we will see Him coming in the clouds with great power and glory and that His angels will gather His elect from all over the world. Never in the gospels does Jesus speak of Him coming to get us before the tribulation. That would be like Him saying He was returning twice, once for the church, and once to establish His earthly kingdom. I don't know of anywhere that Paul indicates a pre-trib rapture either. That leaves Peter, James, John and Jude, and I don't think any of them mention the rapture at all.

MATT 24:29 - 31:
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That seems to clearly indicate that we will be gathered at the end of the tribulation. Also, Paul refers to the sound of the last trumpet, which I would think is the same trumpet Jesus speaks about in Mt 24:31 above:

1THES 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1COR 15
but we shall all be changed-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So, what do you guys think?

 

[GraceBwithU]

You will not find anything to support the pre-trib rapture of the church. This view is for Hollywood and book sells. Here is where it originated.

“There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812, and by John Darby himself in 1827. However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is sometimes attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret MacDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision that was later published in 1861.†(Wikipedia)

I read her letter about her vision and even it seems to support a post-trib view. I have more and will post later

 

[GraceBwithU]

Any serious study of the Rapture must start with the verses in 1 Th 4:13-18.

1 Th 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

The event described here by Paul is an event worth mentioning or he would not have mentioned it. It doesn’t matter what you call it. This event will happen.

• Paul talks about those that “sleep in Jesus†and “dead in Christâ€Â
• Paul talks about “we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lordâ€Â
• “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shoutâ€Â
• “with the voice of the archangel’
• “with the trump, (which is the last trumpet, 1 Cor. 15:52) of Godâ€Â
• “the dead in Christ shall rise firstâ€Â
• “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the airâ€Â

It doesn’t matter when you believe this tribulation begins, it ends for His church at the event described in 1 TH 4:13-18, “and so shall we ever be with the Lordâ€Â. So, when is this event going to happen, (not the date on the calendar but the timing of the event in relation to other events)?

The scriptures of 1 TH 4:13-18, do not say much about the timing but they do give us important clues. There will be a resurrection.

• The scriptures here talk about a resurrection of the dead in Christ.
• It plainly says this resurrection will happen first. It will precede the ones alive being caught up.

When does the Bible speak about the “First Resurrection�

To be continued....

 

[GraceBwithU]

Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

Rv 7:13- 14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
KJV

Here John is not witnessing the first resurrection; he is seeing the results of it, (Paul saw it). However, a question is asked and the elder answers John by saying, “These are they which came out of great tribulationâ€Â

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

Here again, in these scriptures that John is seeing the results of the “first resurrection†not the actual resurrection, (Paul saw it). But he described the souls as “souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands†At this point John has witnessed the results of all that were part of the “first resurrectionâ€Â, then he gives it a name, “This is the first resurrection.†If this is the first resurrection then there has not been another before it.

Rv 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief . Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
KJV

1 TH 5:2-6
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
KJV

He will come as a “thief in the nightâ€Â, without warning to the lost. We should “not sleep…watch and be soberâ€Â. If the gathering up of his elect was done at anytime before His Second Coming, His Second Coming would not be a surprise. People disappearing from cars, a church pew, even unborn children from wombs is not going to be something that will be secret and unnoticed. A thief does not call you on the phone and warn you that he will be breaking into your house soon.

Rv 19:11-14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
KJV


When you put all the scriptures together they describe the events below.

• “Immediately after the tribulation of those days†(Mat 24:29)
• ‘And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven†(Mat 24:30)
• “with the trump, (which is the last trumpet, 1 Cor. 15:52) of Godâ€Â
• “the dead in Christ shall rise first†(1 Th 4:16)
• “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the airâ€Â, (1Th 4:17)
• “corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortalityâ€Â, (1 Cor. 15:54)
• “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war…And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.â€Â, Rv 19:11-14)
• All this “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eyeâ€Â, (1 Cor 15:52). “As thief in the night.†(1 TH 5:2)
• Satan and his army will be caught unaware. They are totally defenseless against an army of immortals. They are easily defeated.
• “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh all men, both free and bond, both small and great.†Rev 19:17-18.
• “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet…These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.†(Rv 19:20)
• “and so shall we ever be with the Lordâ€Â, (1Th 4:17)

 

[faithtransforms]

Wow, that is great stuff GraceB. It really pulls it all together. I think a lot of people take the pre-trib rapture for granted, just like I used to before I had read enough to question it. I just wonder how people that believe in a pre-trib rapture justify it by the scriptures. I mean pastors that I really respect believe this, yet with seemingly no evidence from the Word. Strange!

 

[Vic C.]

You will not find anything to support the pre-trib rapture of the church. This view is for Hollywood and book sells. Here is where it originated.

“There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812, and by John Darby himself in 1827. However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

Great stuff, Grace. May I add one more name to the list?

Francisco Ribera
http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/ ... look47.htm

 

[n2thelight]

The Western once-Christian societies shall fall, and with them goes the world; we are just letting you know how they shall fall, so that you can chart the signs of the times, and observe the signposts along the way, to the world's eventual enslavement under the antichrist system, which is outlined in the thirteenth chapter of Revelation. And in alerting you, it may be that perchance you can escape the worst of it.

Knowing your enemy's plan goes a long way towards your survival in any battle. There is a subtle long-term program designed to draw you away from Jesus Christ and sound doctrine. And seeing it for what it is may be the edge that you need to enable you to know to what to do as we begin the final run-up to the Tribulation. If you know how your enemy plans to deceive you, you are a lot less likely to be deceived.

God always wanted His people to be aware and to be knowledgeable. He also wanted them to be stand-uppers, not lay-downers. At the birth of Christianity, a religion founded upon the blood of the Messiah of God, whom the evil of this world killed and crucified, the early church fought insurmountable odds against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, and they won.

Christianity, like a bright light turned on in a dark place, shed forth salvation all over this once-dark world. Many good men and women died for this faith. But now, in the end of the world, it is getting dark again; the light is dimming, not because that light is weak, but that there is none to carry it to the darkness. We have not been good stewards of the the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Many good men died that we could even breath Christ's name aloud.

Many were killed, and their whole families too, for simply saying Jesus Christ, Messiah of God. In secret they huddled in home churches fearing the knock on the door, out of their lack and their children's need they gave the Apostles provision, with their very life in the balance they worshiped the Lord that they knew was true, and whom had done as much and so much more for them. Have they died in vain? Watching the nightly news or picking up a newspaper today it would seem that they have.

Today, in a futile effort to appease the enemies of God, Christ, and the religion and people that bear His name¯Christianity, the end-time Christian pretends that all will be well if they just dumb down and close their eyes, keeping silent; as the forces of satan methodically dismantle God's created order, His Scripture, and His Salvation Jesus Christ. The Emperor really isn't naked, we say, there is not an elephant in the room, as it steps upon us. Christian's failure to take stands, fight for what's right, contend for the faith, speak out against wrongs and errors, and our wishy-washy attitude towards the destruction of all that we hold dear, is to be our eventual overthrow:

Hos 4:6
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. KJV

This cannot be stopped, the Tribulation shall befall us, for it is Holy Spirit inspired prophesy, written in the past-tense in the Bible. "...and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast...." (Rev 13:3-4). This is what the International Judaic conspirators have been working for centuries, even millennia, to bring forth; they were born for it: "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 4).

But you are not fated on an individual level, you do have choices, options. Many wise Christians shall escape the slaughter of the Tribulation. They shall have something in common, they will understand what is going on around them. Didn't know that Christians were going to die during the Great Tribulation? See Scriptural Evidences That Christians Shall Die In The Great Tribulation. Thought that you were going to be Raptured out? See The Rapture Theory; What Does God's Word Say About It?. Now get sober minded, and quit listening to your destroyers when they proclaim good for you "saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace" (Jer 6:14).

Jer 6:13-19
13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. KJV

Bad things are coming, but they will present a utopia to you before the bottom drops out; be ready for that. Here, allow us to illustrate the Tribulation in four steps, like this:

1 First it gets real bad......First part of Trib(One World Order)

2 Then it gets healed,utopia......
Second part of Trib(antichrist)
3 Then all hell breaks loose......

4 Then comes the end..................Second Advent



Many people will err by thinking that step 2 above, is really step 4, and become lost when step 3 happens upon them. Step 4 will not be a glorious time of rewards for these.


The Rapturist (Pentecostals, Charismatics, Baptists, etc.) will have his faith shaken when he finds himself in step 1, having thought that he was to have been Raptured before these troubles; and he will be vulnerable to being deceived when step 2 comes in, for by now all his doctrine is contradicted; he will be totally bewildered when step 3 comes about. Who knows what his state shall be at step 4. This is the great danger of the Rapture teaching.


The "play-Christians" (Catholics, Episcopalians, Protestant offshoots, etc. et al), never having learned sound doctrine in their respective church systems, will change sides at step 1 to join the beast (New World Order); even now this trend is beginning in most so-called Christian denominations under the guise of "tolerance" and a lukewarm and watering-down brand of new age "Christian love & compassion." They left their first love (Christ Jesus) long ago. Then at step 2 these will join antichrist, securing their continued temporary safety and comfort. In step 4 they shall hear the fateful words out of the Lord of lords and King of king's mouth "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23).

For:


Jer 5:30-31
30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? KJV

Atheists, Agnostics, all uncommitteds, and all members of the other religions (which are ALL false religions) shall follow the same pattern as the play-Christians in the group above; or they shall be executed under the first beast (human rule); whoever of these that shall somehow survive the first 42 months, until antichrist arrives in the second part of the Tribulation (godly rule under a false god satan/antichrist), will bow to his (satan as false god) other-worldly powers. Like the unfaithful dog who will hunt with anyone which takes him, they shall follow, first the New World Order (the first beast), then they shall fawn at the feet of it's master (antichrist/satan). Their fate has long ago been sealed, only to be overturned by a sincere Christian conversion not likely during the Tribulation, where everything is geared towards steering converts into antichrist's new age religion of the beast.


Then, for all of the unsaved world, shall be fulfilled the ominous Scripture:

2 Thess 2:1-4
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [satan as the antichrist];
4 Who [satan/antichrist] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. KJV


The human race universal is the victim in this crime, God is the Complainant, satan is the offender, and the International Judaic Cadre are the conspirators. Thank God, for the Christian's sake, that they can appeal directly to Him for help and protection in the name of their Savior Jesus Christ.

All other religions are in a heap of trouble, satan has the mastery over them, for their gods are vain. These will easily convert to antichrist's new religion, for their own religion was false all along; what great thing is it to switch from one lie to another? So they will enjoy a time of relative peace during the Tribulation as long as they worship antichrist (satan). But Christians, they cannot worship satan, thus they shall not fare so well when worship is ordered under pain of death (unless God protects them Divinely¯which He does appear to do for two groups on two separate occasions in Revelation chapter twelve), for the Tribulation is designed specifically for them, their religion is real and it is the power of God in Christ Jesus. Satan doesn't like that.

Written by Nick Goggin

Just thought it would fit good here