What does this mean to you?

[Biblereader]

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Big question. Read each verse before you answer.

 

[Imagican]

Biblereader,

EXELLENT question and I can't WAIT to hear what responses you may elicite with this post. I will reserve my comments until 'later' in this post for the sake of NOT influencing what may or may NOT be offered by others.

MEC

 

[mondar]

The verses you quote are about those who were never saved, but have experienced living among other Hebrew saved people. In the context verse 9 makes this clearn. The writer says that he expects better things of the hebrew people, things that accompany (are the fruits of) salvation.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

So then, the verses you quoted.

"4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift"
The unbelieving Hebrews tasted, but did not swollow the heavenly gift. They were enlightened by the faith of sme of the hebrews around them, but were not believers themselves.

"and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, "
Nowhere in the NT is this terminology used of believers. Because the unbelieving hebrews were in the same meetings and assemblies as the believing Hebrews, they became partakers of the spiritual gifts exercised by the believers. They became partakes in the actions of the HS leading in the assembly. This experiencing of the HS is further explained in the next verse.

"and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come"
These Hebrew unbelievers tasted, but did not swollow the word of God and powers of the age to come. If the HS preformed miracles among the Hebrew believers, these unbelieving Jews saw the same miracles, and benifited from those same things.

"and then fell away"
This falling away is not the saved becoming unsaved. This falling away is those who participated in the Grace of God among the Hebrew Christians and were unbelievers, but rejecting the once and for all substutitionary sacrifice of the Messiah. Notice the phrase that follows....

"seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Here is the key to the problem of these unbelievers. They would not leave the sacrifices of Judiasm. Other parts of the epistle (Chapter 10) compares the once and for all, sufficient sacrifice of Christ with the repeated sacrifices of the Law. To have faith in anything but Christ is not faith. These unbelieving Jews tried to syncritize the Law with Christ. They would allow for Christ, but not Christ alone.

There is nothing in the above verses that "accompany salvation." This is why verse 9 separates those who have fallen out of the Church and were never saved with the truely saved Hebrews. The saved have their fruits.

 

[cyberjosh]

I say if one were to read Hebrews from chapter one, smoothly with no breaks and just reading it in context, and didn't stop especially to dwell on this section more than others and continued on to read chapters 7, 8, 9, etc. that one would get the immediate passing impression that this was a warning for themselves, just as other such warnings are repeatedly all throughout Scripture. Excusing one's self from important warnings is the first step to walking down a bad path in Biblical Study and in life. One would then repeatedly have to excuse one's self from every warning in Hebrews to be consistant. I have fear of the Lord enough to not brush it off, lest I be mistaken and it cost me something great. The fear of the Lord compels me to fear God's righteous judgement (2 Corinthians 5:10-11).This is all I will say for now.

 

[Imagican]

Curiouser and Curiouser..................... See what I 'meant'?

MEC

 

[Biblereader]

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Mondar, from studying the Bible, I will say you are wrong.

 

[mutzrein]

Context: The writer of Hebrews is addressing the Jews and warning them to remain in faith, and not to go back into the bondage & slavery of the law.
Key statement: They cannot be brought back to repentance.
But remember: Scripture also tells us 'where there is repentance there is forgiveness'
So: How is it these cannot be brought back? It needs answering.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Biblereader:
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Big question. Read each verse before you answer.

Good question. The answer I believe lies in what these believers had fallen away from as to why their repentance from sins is not going to be accepted. Their faith is no longer in the blood of Christ but in the ritual of animal sacrifice to pay for their sin. Their sins are not covered even when they repent because their faith is not in Christ and the power of his blood. We know that the blood of sheep and goats cannot remove sin. Before the cross it was a temporary fix, but after Christ died, it is an insult to the grace of God.

 

[unred typo]

quote by mutzrein:
Context: The writer of Hebrews is addressing the Jews and warning them to remain in faith, and not to go back into the bondage & slavery of the law.
Key statement: They cannot be brought back to repentance.
But remember: Scripture also tells us 'where there is repentance there is forgiveness'
So: How is it these cannot be brought back? It needs answering.

The law here is the ceremonial law of the sacrificial system, not the commands of Christ. Be careful not to confuse the two. They are not synonymous. Paul is specifically speaking of the Jewish laws.

 

[Biblereader]

Context: The writer of Hebrews is addressing the Jews and warning them to remain in faith, and not to go back into the bondage & slavery of the law.
Key statement: They cannot be brought back to repentance.
But remember: Scripture also tells us 'where there is repentance there is forgiveness'
So: How is it these cannot be brought back? It needs answering.

That's why I posted this. Ive been puzzling it over for a long time. The only thing I can come up with is, we can lose our salvation. I hate to think like that, but, this is what it seems to be saying.

 

[cyberjosh]

That's why I posted this. Ive been puzzling it over for a long time. The only thing I can come up with is, we can lose our salvation. I hate to think like that, but, this is what it seems to be saying.

I feel your pain. I sigh whenever I see discussions over this passage, because it is so hard to understand, and I have wavered many times on it. But I have come to the conviction that God's warnings all throughout Scripture are not in vain.

And Paul urgently warns believers, "And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain-- " (2 Corinthians 6:1). We are rather to use that grace as empowerment (2 Corinthians 12:9) to overcome sin, yet some believers do not always recieve God's grace to the end he intended it, and may instead use it as a license to sin. It has taken me a long time to get to the point where I am with reading the Scriptures, but I now learn to accept the Scriptures for what they say and have fear enough to believe it even if I don't understand it at first. I learned that principle from a very godly evangelist called John Bevere who essentially said the same thing in one of his sermons, that as far as these warnings in the Bible go that one's first instinct is to run away from them or reinterpret them, but he said he has learned the fear of the Lord to believe what he reads, rather than read what he believes (reading your beliefs into something). He said rather than trying to reconcile it to his current views, be fears the Lord enough even if he does not understand how it is compatible with the rest of the message of the Word and that in time God would reveal the meaning to him.

I have also learned what Paul meant when he said he experienced much weeping and tears, as I have suffered and struggled over what the word says, and have even gotten excessively frustrated over it enough to audibly cry out to God, "I don't understand. But please strip away my pride, my preconceptions, and my flesh and reveal to me your word." When you do that, something funny comes over you, where you do not contend as much against God's Word when you read it, even if it causes your flesh to stumble (in fact that's one of the purposes of the Word of God: to make your flesh stumble that it is destroyed - only do not be hindered by it). Also the relieving words of a Pastor, whom I am close friends with, comforted me when he told me that one does not even necessarily have to choose a side on whether you can loose your savlation or not, but rather fear God and trust in Him to work our the rest (and to believe no matter how seemingly contradictory both the promises and the warnings). At the very least we have a command, warning, and statement of truth which we can always hold as true and worthy of recognition, "The one who endures to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13). Hold to that and always persevere and always take God's warnings seriously, but also trust in His grace that He is able to keep you from stumbling.

God Bless,

~Josh