Whatever Happened to Jesus?

[Rollo Tamasi]

It is ingrained in our minds to go to a doctor for all our health needs.
Health insurance comes first before putting food on our tables.
I've seen so many people treat their doctors as "gods".
They go unquestioned in all that they do.

We pray for God to direct the doctors, to give them the answers, to perform our surgeries successfully, to guide their hands, show them the answers.

But whatever happened to Jesus?
Is he our last resort?
Is that what he wants?

 

[Danacovert82]

It's not like it was a few years ago. People got prayer circles and prayed for whoever was sick. Anymore people when they have something wrong, they feel they have to go to dr X and have them push pills. But very few people don't do that. They go with the ultimate healer, Jesus.

 

[WIP]

They go unquestioned in all that they do.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I question my doctor's opinion all the time. I have managed to resolve certain conditions without filling prescriptions he has advised because I questioned his solution enough to dig for another solution that worked and it turned out to be a simple change in my diet.

He recently prescribed a medication to help get my HDL, LDL, and Triglycerides into better balance. I asked him why this was necessary since my overall cholesterol is within normal parameters and the balance of these items hasn't really changed. I wasn't interested in taking another pill just because he says I should and I needed more explanation than that. My HDL is historically low, my LDL is historically high, and my Triglycerides are historically high so what's the diff? He told me it was because of my diabetes situation. Even though my diabetes is well under control with my diet and weight control, the fact that I have shown a propensity for the condition makes my cholesterol a much bigger concern. Now I can accept his prescription.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you WIP.
You'll see in my OP I said "so many people", not all.
I just spent 12 years on the medical/surgical unit, and now with people in my life.
That's where I'm basing my statements.

 

[WIP]

But whatever happened to Jesus?
Is he our last resort?
Is that what he wants?

God gave us the ability to learn to use medicinal practices did he not? It would seem appropriate then to use this ability. At the same time is it not also appropriate to look to Jesus for support and wisdom in these situations and in life in general?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

God gave us the ability to learn to use medicinal practices did he not? It would seem appropriate then to use this ability. At the same time is it not also appropriate to look to Jesus for support and wisdom in these situations and in life in general?

Of course it is.
But I find most people don't do that.
Their mentality is to do whatever the doctor says and hope Jesus will make it happen.
I find the mindset to be wrong.

Do you realize that the good doctor Luke in both his Gospel and Acts, that every mention of healing goes to Jesus and not once mentioning the need for an earthly doctor?

Yes, if I break a leg I will go to the emergency room.
Why?
To fix the break and give pain meds.
But would I look to them to heal me?
Absolutely not!

That's my point.
I see in the church the lack of trust in Jesus in health matters in general and their attitudes toward their doctors.
I find both lacking in Scripture.

 

[tandemcpl]

I see in the church the lack of trust in Jesus in health matters in general and their attitudes toward their doctors. I find both lacking in Scripture.

Good evening Allen,

I’m not sure it is fair to paint the church with such a broad brush. In my experience, I have not found a lack of trust in Jesus in health matters among the Christians I know. I believe it is by the Grace of God that we have highly capable physicians helping us today.

Last week I went to the doctor for a sinus infection and was prescribed antibiotics to clear up the infection. I thanked the doctor for all he did for me but ultimately all the glory goes to God for my recovery.

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul was not shy about prescribing medication to help one who is suffering from ailments. We see this in Paul’s first epistle to Timothy where he said, “No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.” (1 Tim 5:23, ESV)

Be blessed.

Toby

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Toby, I'll take you up on that prescription.
Cheers!

 

[WIP]

I think you bring up a valid point. We tend to place the credit on the doctor instead of the Master healer. We do the same in many other aspects of our lives too.

 

[reba]

back in the 50s prayer and mom was how it was done... I completely believe there are many reasons we have Luke the doctor in Scripture... I thank God for the chemo and thank Him for the wisdom he gave my doctors... I still do not run to the dr if i sneeze .... Take to aspirins and call me in the morning

 

[By Grace]

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I question my doctor's opinion all the time. I have managed to resolve certain conditions without filling prescriptions he has advised because I questioned his solution enough to dig for another solution that worked and it turned out to be a simple change in my diet

It is amazing what sorts of OTC products the physicians describe. After having gamma-ray surgery for a small benign tumor on my auditory nerve (just above the ear) I was having difficulties holding my balance. The doctor a world-renown MD, PhD, and a full professor at a medical college told me to take ginger extract--and it worked.

Because my LDL was elevated, and the total cholesterol was 205, the MD told me to take vitamin E, or fish oil. That also worked.

BTW the easy way to remember the difference between the two is that the HDL is healthy and the LDL is lethal.

He recently prescribed a medication to help get my HDL, LDL, and Triglycerides into better balance. I asked him why this was necessary since my overall cholesterol is within normal parameters and the balance of these items hasn't really changed. I wasn't interested in taking another pill just because he says I should and I needed more explanation than that. My HDL is historically low, my LDL is historically high, and my Triglycerides are historically high so what's the diff? He told me it was because of my diabetes situation. Even though my diabetes is well under control with my diet and weight control, the fact that I have shown a propensity for the condition makes my cholesterol a much bigger concern. Now I can accept his prescription.

Diabetes is a killer because it is an assault on every part of the body at once; no one knows where it is going to hit next--and that is the reason why many insurance companies refused to take on diabetics as a pre-existing condition. Diabetics have astronomical medical bills, even if they take care of themselves. Because the insult of diabetes is to the entire body it is likely that a diabetic can have retina detachments, floaters in the eyes, loss of feeling in the extremities, cold hands and feet which can also be a sign of peripheral artery disease.

Then there is the issue of insulin production. It can be too little, or the body can reject is, and treat one's own insulin as a foreign substance, and attack it as it is being made in the pancreas.

Further complicating things is the type of diabetes a person has. Type 1 is juvenile-onset diabetes, and type 2 is adult-onset diabetes. There are some medications that are not recommended for type 1 diabetes, and vice versa for type 2 diabetes.

What does all this above have to do with the OP?
Plenty.

Jesus Christ is our Healer, in addition to being our Savior, Sanctifier and Coming King.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1 Peter 2: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much​

Here we have two Apostles Peter and James, half brother of Jesus, and first Bishop of Jerusalem writing about 30+ years after the Resurrection of Christ, and referring to Isaiah 532:5. What is amazing here, and often overlooked by those who do not believe that physical healing is not in the Atonement is that if it is not included in the Atonement, then neither were our transgressions, our iniquities and there is then no peace from Jesus that we have. You see, the fruits of the Atonement is not like the old Chinese restaurant menus, where you take some from column A, and some from column B.

Nor is there any indication that healing has ceased, ever. Since there is nothing that directly indicates cessation of healing (or any other spiritual gift) in the Bible, it stands to reason that healing still happens. Then there is the timeline, which is important. Both James and Pete wrote after Pentecost, and after Acts. If, under inspiration and guidance of Holy Spirit they wrote those things, then who are we to state that healing or other spiritual gifts has ceased?

[If you are a Dispensationalist, please do not derail this thread, and bring 1 Corinthians 13:10 unless you know the singular neuter adjective to which τελειόv refers to (and which the ESV translates as "..when the perfect comes...) please begin another thread, OK? I say that because "bible" is feminine.]

Further, we have 10 instances in Matthew, where "Healed" is used:

Matthew 4:24
Matthew 8:8
Matthew 8:13
Matthew 8:16
Matthew 12:15
Matthew 12:22
Matthew 14:14
Matthew 15:30
Matthew 19:2
Matthew 21:14
​

Since Jesus Christ is also the Creator of the Universe.:

Hebrews 1:22 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; ​

let us understand that in addition to being our Savior, Jesus is ALSO our creator. As a result, ALL healing comes from him; and I believe that it is a false dichotomy to make a difference from a non-medical healing (aka miracle) and that wrought by medical science, which Jesus also created. All man did is recently discover how to create compounds that can help do the healings. It is Jesus who put it all together.

​

 

[kevinmaynard]

Of course it is.
But I find most people don't do that.
Their mentality is to do whatever the doctor says and hope Jesus will make it happen.
I find the mindset to be wrong.

Do you realize that the good doctor Luke in both his Gospel and Acts, that every mention of healing goes to Jesus and not once mentioning the need for an earthly doctor?

Yes, if I break a leg I will go to the emergency room.
Why?
To fix the break and give pain meds.
But would I look to them to heal me?
Absolutely not!

That's my point.
I see in the church the lack of trust in Jesus in health matters in general and their attitudes toward their doctors.
I find both lacking in Scripture.

So if your child has a broken leg you don't take them to the Dr. First?

How long do you wait?

 

[reba]

So if your child has a broken leg you don't take them to the Dr. First?

How long do you wait?

How about praying on the way to the Dr

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So if your child has a broken leg you don't take them to the Dr. First?

How long do you wait?

Hi Kevin, I answered this in post #6.

 

[By Grace]

So if your child has a broken leg you don't take them to the Dr. First? How long do you wait?

You are creating an logical error called a "false choice dilemma". I say that because you are setting up a choice of either faith healing, or medical science. The fact is that neither is antithetical to the other, and from where do you suppose that the science which the medical doctors practices on humans come from? Humankind did not create science, they merely discovered what Jesus, the Creator put there first

From his writings in the gospel bearing his name, and its continuation, what we call the Acts of the Apostles, we can see that Luke was a gifted writer, and trained in classical Greek. As a logical extension, we can assume that he was also a good physician, or else the infirmities he describes, and their miraculous healings in both books with a sense of reverent and detailed awe. More to the point, there is no such dichotomy, as you propose in your question above in any of his 2 books.

As a result, in your zeal, I believe that you are creating a non-Scriptural false dichotomy; I request that you cease doing that because it actually creates an unnecessary tension among the brethren.

 

[kevinmaynard]

You are creating an logical error called a "false choice dilemma". I say that because you are setting up a choice of either faith healing, or medical science. The fact is that neither is antithetical to the other, and from where do you suppose that the science which the medical doctors practices on humans come from? Humankind did not create science, they merely discovered what Jesus, the Creator put there first

From his writings in the gospel bearing his name, and its continuation, what we call the Acts of the Apostles, we can see that Luke was a gifted writer, and trained in classical Greek. As a logical extension, we can assume that he was also a good physician, or else the infirmities he describes, and their miraculous healings in both books with a sense of reverent and detailed awe. More to the point, there is no such dichotomy, as you propose in your question above in any of his 2 books.

As a result, in your zeal, I believe that you are creating a non-Scriptural false dichotomy; I request that you cease doing that because it actually creates an unnecessary tension among the brethren.

Actually humans did create science. Science is just a methodology. Form a hypothesis, make an experiment, test it. It is about evidence. God created the world. We use science to figure out the world. Our body heals its self because God made it that way.

I only challenged the idea of trusting a Dr. for a broken leg, but not for other things. We certainly should seek second opinion, but to forgo medicine in lieu of faith healing is foolish.

Honestly after rereading the op it doesn't appear to be promoting forgoing medicine for faith healing.

 

[By Grace]

Actually humans did create science. Science is just a methodology.

You are re-defining science. Science is the orderly and systematic gathering of facts in a previously undiscovered manner. All humanity did is discover what God put there in the first place.

Form a hypothesis, make an experiment, test it. It is about evidence. God created the world. We use science to figure out the world. Our body heals its self because God made it that way.

You are confusing scientific methodology with science itself. The method to gather knowledge is not the same as the knowledge itself. Perhaps this will help ypu see the difference. Getting a CAT scan or a MRI is the methodology through which we gather data about something iniside a person's body. How the person's body works, or doesn't work is the science, and the ways to improve the function of something is also the science

I only challenged the idea of trusting a Dr. for a broken leg, but not for other things. We certainly should seek second opinion, but to forgo medicine in lieu of faith healing is foolish.

The way you worded that question, it seemed as if you were doing exactly that. If you weren't doing it, then I stand corrected.

Honestly after rereading the op it doesn't appear to be promoting forgoing medicine for faith healing.

It is ingrained in our minds to go to a doctor for all our health needs.
<SNIP>
We pray for God to direct the doctors, to give them the answers, to perform our surgeries successfully, to guide their hands, show them the answers.

But whatever happened to Jesus?
Is he our last resort?
Is that what he wants?

it seems to me that the OP is asking precisely that because the author calls Jesus the "last resort" [for some people] in favor of the standard practice of going to a medical professional first.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Good morning By Grace, thank you for your response.
kevinmaynard's response to my OP is correct.
I go to the doctor when necessary.
My whole point was how we put Jesus either behind the doctor for healing or assume the doctor is there instead of Jesus.

I see too many people put their lives in the hands of a doctor instead of giving it to Jesus.
Doctors certainly can help us but I ask truthfully, "just where does Jesus fit into the picture?".

This thread has gotten sidetracked on science and medicine when I wanted to focus on our real need for Jesus.
What does the Bible say about the way we run to doctors?

 

[By Grace]

Good morning By Grace, thank you for your response.
kevinmaynard's response to my OP is correct.
I go to the doctor when necessary.
<SNIP>
This thread has gotten sidetracked on science and medicine when I wanted to focus on our real need for Jesus.
What does the Bible say about the way we run to doctors?

Sorry for the derail, then.

In order to see that in the Bible, I suggest that you look at the first person who faced that dilemma: Luke, the Beloved Physician.

It is clear that he saw no such dichotomy. In his Gospel bearing his name, we see him being very comfortable describing medical issues which he could not cure. The woman who was vaginally bleeding for many years. In Luke 8:43, there is a very poignant and compassionate description of her : And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, then it is followed by the miracle of Jesus healing her.

In the Acts of the Apostles, he is also witness to miracles as the shadow of Peter passed among them on Solomon's Porch on the Temple at Jerusalem: Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. What makes this so important is the fact that just previously, Ananias, with Sapphira his wife conspired to deceive Holy Spirit, and both paid for that with their lives.

Hope that helps you to come to an answer in your question.