The man of sin

kiwidan said:

Even scripture backs backs it up saying there are many antichrists.
Don't be deceived. There is no one single antichrist or false prophet.

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Very true.

We know from scripture that the "many" anti-Christ's are wicked spirits. Not "a man" in particular.

People are so permeated by end time novels with "the bad guy" they are preprogrammed to "make some other guy" the anti-Christ.

The anti-Christ is that spirit which works AGAINST or CONTRARY to Christ.

Here is a great picture of the anti-Christ spirit:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Which is WHY John the Apostle gave us this warning about the anti-Christ who is SURE to come, just as Mark 4:15 proposes as a FACT.

2 John 1:8
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Pointing at any numbers of other people are not going to help anyone recognize "anti-Christ" spirits, because they are, as the scripture says:

MANY. They WILL TAKE LIFE.

smaller said:

Very true.

We know from scripture that the "many" anti-Christ's are wicked spirits. Not "a man" in particular.

People are so permeated by end time novels with "the bad guy" they are preprogrammed to "make some other guy" the anti-Christ.

The anti-Christ is that spirit which works AGAINST or CONTRARY to Christ.

Here is a great picture of the anti-Christ spirit:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Which is WHY John the Apostle gave us this warning about the anti-Christ who is SURE to come, just as Mark 4:15 proposes as a FACT.

2 John 1:8
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Pointing at any numbers of other people are not going to help anyone recognize "anti-Christ" spirits, because they are, as the scripture says:

MANY. They WILL TAKE LIFE.

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How would somebody like Nero fit this description?

turnorburn said:

How would somebody like Nero fit this description?

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Waiting for the boogie man to show up when the boogie man was revealed in the opening chapters of the Bible is not an interesting place for me, personally. I consider it a huge waste of time.

smaller said:

Waiting for the boogie man to show up when the boogie man was revealed in the opening chapters of the Bible is not an interesting place for me, personally. I consider it a huge waste of time.

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This thread is about The Man Of Sin.. Not the boogieman..

turnorburn said:

This thread is about The Man Of Sin.. Not the boogieman..

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You know exactly what I'm referencing, Satan. Why do you look for a MAN when you have Satan staring you straight in the face from the scriptures? That's why all you folks looking for 'another' person as Satan or a boogie man anti-Christ are wasting your breath. Satan is IN the flesh of man, according to the Word of God.

I follow these "dictates" of the Spirit:

Titus 3:2
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

Acts 10:28
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

And most importantly, IF you do not have a fulcrum of scriptural understanding for adverse judgments that is not man, Romans 13:8-10 is IMPOSSIBLE for any believer to do and perform. And I would consider failure here as not a credible scriptural option.

turnorburn said:

Antichrist is sticking out like a sore thumb if you can't see him there must be a reason...

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Well I know it's not Obama lol because Antichrist is supposed to be charismatic and that ain't him!

Particular Baptist said:

Perhaps if you took the hermenutic to seek interpretations of unclear passages in the light of the clear, fellow servant, you might be delivered from such a deep abyss of error by heretical twisting of scripture. The 1689 Second London Confession offers, I.7 and XXVI.4

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I think that one ought to be much more careful in using the term "heretical". A difference of opinion on what Scripture says, even if one is clearly in error, does not mean that heresy has been committed.

smaller said:

You know exactly what I'm referencing, Satan. Why do you look for a MAN when you have Satan staring you straight in the face from the scriptures? That's why all you folks looking for 'another' person as Satan or a boogie man anti-Christ are wasting your breath. Satan is IN the flesh of man, according to the Word of God.

I follow these "dictates" of the Spirit:

Titus 3:2
To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

Acts 10:28
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

And most importantly, IF you do not have a fulcrum of scriptural understanding for adverse judgments that is not man, Romans 13:8-10 is IMPOSSIBLE for any believer to do and perform. And I would consider failure here as not a credible scriptural option.

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Sounds like Satan is omniscient. Is that what you believe?

Free said:

Sounds like Satan is omniscient. Is that what you believe?

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I believe Satan is evil/wicked (Matt. 13:19, Mark 4:15), that evil is present with(in) man's conscience (beyond any debate, Romans 7:21, Heb. 10:22, Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28) and that evil is a working of spiritual disobedience (not forensic), directly associated with Satan and his minions who are clearly shown in scriptures to be IN man. Sin being also "of the devil." 1 John 3:8. (not a one time in the Garden gig as you might posture)

That is WHY Satan comes "immediately" to steal Word, because that spirit of disobedience is already therein to do so. Eph. 2:2.

Omniscient? Hardly. The heart is wicked and deceitful above all things. Jer. 17:9. This MUST connect to Satan (or his minions) as well OR mankind would technically be worse than Satan, and I don't buy that either.

smaller said:

Satan and his minions who are clearly shown in scriptures to be IN man.

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What do you mean by "in man"? And where in Scripture is this stated?

smaller said:

Sin being also "of the devil." 1 John 3:8. (not a one time in the Garden gig as you might posture)

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1 John 3:8 most certainly does not say that "sin is of the devil". What is says is this:

8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. (ESV)

smaller said:

Omniscient? Hardly. The heart is wicked and deceitful above all things. Jer. 17:9. This MUST connect to Satan (or his minions) as well OR mankind would technically be worse than Satan, and I don't buy that either.

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I actually misspoke. I meant that you seem to think that Satan is omnipresent. You stated: "Satan is IN the flesh of man, according to the Word of God." That implies that Satan is in the flesh of mankind, that is, all people everywhere, for all times.

And you most certainly are reading too much into Jer. 17:9 and have taken it out of context, or rather, the context simply just doesn't support what you what the verse to say.

Free said:

What do you mean by "in man"? And where in Scripture is this stated?

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Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1 John 3:8 most certainly does not say that "sin is of the devil". What is says is this:
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. (ESV)

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I don't consider that statement any different in meaning and intent, clearly connecting SIN(ning) to THE DEVIL as in the KJV or sin(s) or whatever nit picky variation may apply. The "connection" of sin to the devil is unavoidable, AS IS the connecting of the devil to the spirit of disobedience as shown above.

I actually misspoke. I meant that you seem to think that Satan is omnipresent. You stated: "Satan is IN the flesh of man, according to the Word of God." That implies that Satan is in the flesh of mankind, that is, all people everywhere, for all times.

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Did I say it was an eternal binding? No.

But the evidence that Satan holds people with the power of darkness and blinding is again, well beyond scriptural disputations.

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And you most certainly are reading too much into Jer. 17:9 and have taken it out of context, or rather, the context simply just doesn't support what you what the verse to say.

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Prove it. IF the heart is deceitful above "all things" and desperately wicked, either Satan IS involved with the heart of mankind, AS CLEARLY SHOWN above,

or

Mankind's heart is worse than Satan.

I don't find that a credible sight based on context or any other slant.

smaller said:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

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You stated: "Satan and his minions who are clearly shown in scriptures to be IN man." I asked for where the Bible says this and these verses do not say that. Where in the Bible does it say such? And please tell me what you mean by "in man"?

smaller said:

I don't consider that statement any different in meaning and intent, clearly connecting SIN(ning) to THE DEVIL as in the KJV or sin(s) or whatever nit picky variation may apply. The "connection" of sin to the devil is unavoidable, AS IS the connecting of the devil to the spirit of disobedience as shown above.

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1 John 3:8a according to the ESV: "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil
1 John 3:8a according to the KJV: "He that committeth sin is of the the devil"
1 John 3:8a according to smaller: "Sin is of the devil"

You don't consider what the Bible says and what you say it says to be different in meaning and intent?

smaller said:

Did I say it was an eternal binding? No.

But the evidence that Satan holds people with the power of darkness and blinding is again, well beyond scriptural disputations.

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

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I never said anything about "eternal binding". And yet again, none of this supports what you have previously claimed. You stated: "Satan is IN the flesh of man,according to the Word of God." The claim that Satan is "in the flesh of man" (whatever that means), implies that Satan is in the flesh of all men and women who have ever existed or will exist. What evidence from Scripture do you have? How is it that Satan, a single, created being, can accomplish this?

smaller said:

Prove it. IF the heart is deceitful above "all things" and desperately wicked, either Satan IS involved with the heart of mankind, AS CLEARLY SHOWN above,

or

Mankind's heart is worse than Satan.

I don't find that a credible sight based on context or any other slant.

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Jer. 17:1-13:
1 "The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron; with a point of diamond it is engraved on the tablet of their heart, and on the horns of their altars,
2 while their children remember their altars and their Asherim, beside every green tree and on the high hills,
3 on the mountains in the open country. Your wealth and all your treasures I will give for spoil as the price of your high places for sin throughout all your territory.
4 You shall loosen your hand from your heritage that I gave to you, and I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you do not know, for in my anger a fire is kindled that shall burn forever."
5 Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD.
6 He is like a shrub in the desert, and shall not see any good come. He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness, in an uninhabited salt land.
7 "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose trust is the LORD.
8 He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit."
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
10 "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."
11 Like the partridge that gathers a brood that she did not hatch, so is he who gets riches but not by justice; in the midst of his days they will leave him, and at his end he will be a fool.
12 A glorious throne set on high from the beginning is the place of our sanctuary.
13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you shall be put to shame; those who turn away from you shall be written in the earth, for they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living water. (ESV)

How is that for "proof"? This is clearly just what the passage says and there is nothing about Satan.

Free said:

You stated: "Satan and his minions who are clearly shown in scriptures to be IN man." I asked for where the Bible says this and these verses do not say that.

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You and I are apparently reading different scriptures.

The scripture I read says this:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

And you say where is the proof? And I cited Acts 26:18, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 ALL showing identically to the above, and you say where is the proof?

What can I really say to that kind of response Free? I'd suggest you are not accepting the presentations, and perhaps can not, because of the reality of the matters.

And then to top if off with a long scripture citing, SUPPOSEDLY that in your mind eliminates the heart being deceitful above "above all things" and desperately wicked, with a simple observation of comparison, and you think that by citing a longer stretch of Jeremiah that fact is somehow eliminated? Or the observation not legitimate?

smaller said:

You and I are apparently reading different scriptures.

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We're reading the same Scriptures.

smaller said:

The scripture I read says this:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

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Yes, every Bible says that. And as with Scripture, anyone can quote it, but understanding what it says is something else, and it really is meaningless to just post a verse unless one explains what they think it means. What do you think this verse says, other than what it plainly says? How does this support anything you have said?

smaller said:

And you say where is the proof? And I cited Acts 26:18, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 ALL showing identically to the above, and you say where is the proof?

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And given those passages, I must, yet again, ask for proof. None of those verses say that Satan and his minions are in man. Where is one verse that says this?

smaller said:

What can I really say to that kind of reponse Free? I'd suggest you are not accepting the presentations, and perhaps can not, because of the reality of the matters.

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You can respond to it fully for starters. The single reason I do not accept "the presentations," is not because I cannot, but because exegesis does not allow me to do so. Simply put, none of the passages you have provided say anything to support what you are saying.


A few things you didn't address:

And please tell me what you mean by "in man"?
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1 John 3:8a according to the ESV: "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil
1 John 3:8a according to the KJV: "He that committeth sin is of the the devil"
1 John 3:8a according to smaller: "Sin is of the devil"

You don't consider what the Bible says and what you say it says to be different in meaning and intent?
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You stated: "Satan is IN the flesh of man,according to the Word of God." The claim that Satan is "in the flesh of man" (whatever that means), implies that Satan is in the flesh of all men and women who have ever existed or will exist. What evidence from Scripture do you have? How is it that Satan, a single, created being, can accomplish this?

Free said:

We're reading the same Scriptures.

Yes, every Bible says that. And as with Scripture, anyone can quote it, but understanding what it says is something else, and it really is meaningless to just post a verse unless one explains what they think it means. What do you think this verse says, other than what it plainly says? How does this support anything you have said?

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Does Satan, the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience blind people to the Gospel free?

This is a fairly simple question with a fairly simple answer of YES. Whether anyone likes that conclusion or not is quite irrelevant to the facts of scriptures showing the matters, and regardless of what "alternatives" they propose that don't fit the bill of scripture depictions. OF which we have only 'shared' a few of many.

Your alternative will, "most likely" just blame and accuse mankind only and completely disregard that there IS another party that is not man, involved.

And given those passages, I must, yet again, ask for proof.

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The Word is the proof. If you are requesting "some other" evidence you'll have to be more clear yourself on what evidence you are asking for OR propose alternative that eliminate Satan's operations IN MAN.

I think the scriptural proof is as clear as the nose on any man's face.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

IF we can't get off the dime on the obvious, I doubt finding any headway is possible.

All fall short. Jesus came to save that person.

Free said:

I think that one ought to be much more careful in using the term "heretical". A difference of opinion on what Scripture says, even if one is clearly in error, does not mean that heresy has been committed.

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The word "heresy" literally means a twisting of the scriptures. It appears but once. Acts 24.14

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets.

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G139 αἵρεσις haireses or in Strong's Concordance means

properly a choice that is (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion . (heresy is the Greek word itself.): - heresy [which is the Greek word itself] sect.

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. If John teaches there is an "antichrist" and "antichrists", but a man teach only the latter, he is bending the scriptures to fit his will. Consider Romans 16.17-8

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

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Merriam Webster is also clear on the defenition of heresy.

Ultimately, that is an administrative choice. I've said my piece. Good day.

A thousand pardons requested for this accidental double post.

ezrider said:

People are blinded because they fear to look within, and when they try, they find a beam in their way and they cannot see past it. Perhaps the scales will drop and the blind may see when they stop looking for the man of sin in others, but instead know themselves as the man of sin and son of perdition.

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John 12.39-41 "Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him."

II Corinthians 4.3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

II Thessalonians 2.10-2 "and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

kiwidan said:

All fall short. Jesus came to save that person.

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I liked the first version of your post Dan. But yes, if we see people as blinded by the god of this world, as scripture proposes, we will see two parties, and will share the love of God in Christ with one of the two, if it is possible to get past the other one by the Grace of God. 2 Cor 4:4.

The reality of witnessing is that we don't know "how" the Spirit works or how all the pieces fall into place for anyone to come to Christ. The reception or receiving of unmerited Grace also entails us not necessarily understanding how that may be. IN Saul's case Saul was saved. But the men who were with him on the road to Damascus didn't receive or understand anything. Just as believers questioned how Saul could possibly have become a believer, being a prior persecutor of the Church. Well, Jesus reached out and Touched him, directly. Theoretically that is how salvation works. Could be a really small touch, could be dramatic.

Jesus, when speaking first to Saul asked him a question, "Why do you kick against the goads?" I'm sure you've heard the expression, "goading someone into it." Gentile believers are meant, specifically, to be goads to unbelieving Israel, of Gods Mercy in Christ. And not just to them, but to all mankind.

We are better served in our own witnessing by understanding "how" people are put together by our Maker. There are actually TWO (or more) parties standing before us, with EVERY person. And YES, this does change one's "world view," how they see people, how they interact with people. Because it's not "just and only people" we are engaged with.

When I first came to understand this or was "exposed" to this fact, I studied the details for several years afterwards, to confirm the scriptural reality of it, because of what it meant to the way I had seen life prior and the dramatic difference it presented in how I saw things prior. And my first pit stop was in how I saw myself. I had to reconnoiter my entire prior blinded life in light of the facts of scripture, which is why it took so long to work it out.

Whereas prior I would just blame and accuse mankind for not listening to the Gospel, or myself, in my witnessing ways, I had NEVER really factored in that God was actually in charge, hardening the devil who blinds people. Had to up my game in the light of the adversarial component.