What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

Jim Parker said:

Without doctrine, there is no basis by which to determine what is truth and what is error.
The most basic doctrines, divinity of Christ and Holy Spirit, resurrection of dead, etc, as found in the Nicaea-Constantinople Creed, were determined and accepted by the Church in response to false teachings. (Heresies)

"Doctrine" is the word used to identify the authentic teaching of Christ and the apostles who were personally taught by Christ.
"Doctrine" is the word used to identify the true faith.
Heresy, a departure from that faith, can result in effects ranging from minor confusion to eternal damnation.

The primary person who says that, if one does not follow doctrine he can be damned, is Christ.
John 3:36 (RSV) He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death
Jhn 17:17 (NKJV) Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

also:

Eph 1:13 (NKJV) In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

1Th 2:13 (NKJV) For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

iakov the meshuganeh

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Before I address your observations I feel compelled to ask why should I accept your teachings when you sign them with the Yiddish word that means, crazy? Iakov the crazy?

Jim Parker said:

Oh.
So you are not interested in engaging in an honest, forthright, conversation.
Suit yourself.
Bye.

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That's a bit harsh and impatient of you isn't it? Someone explained to you they would respond but your wording makes a cogent response impossible. And you accuse them of dishonesty?

wondering said:

The above made me think of
James 3:1

James, the Brother o Jesus, is telling us not to be in such a hurry to be a teacher because Teachers are held to a higher standard than Others. Also, the very fact that they teach incurs a very big responsibility on them.

To whom much is given, much will be required.
If we have knowledge, we will be held to a higher standard when passing that knowledge on to Others. We must be MORE perfect in that knowledge.

James 3:4-5
A small word out of the mouth may seem to have no consequence, but it could do both a lot of good, or it could be destructive.

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For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Matthew 12:37

JLB said:

What do those scripture references say about eternal life, since you only your theory and didn't bother to discuss the actual language of the scripture.

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What is meant by "language of the scripture"? I noted the EXACT WORDS from the verses I noted.

Jesus said that those who believe possess eternal life in John 3:15, 16, 5:24 and 6:47. If my point can be refuted, please be my guest.

From these 4 verses, we know that one possesses eternal life WHEN one believes, not at some theoretical point after placing one's faith in Christ. If there is disagreement on this point, please guide me to the specific verses that tell us plainly WHEN one is given eternal life. However, we know that any such verse, if it exists, would only show the Scripture to be internally contradicted, since the 4 noted verses are clear enough for anyone to understand. WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. It isn't given later on. That's a false assumption.

Jesus gave us the condition as well as result for eternal life.

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Yes, He did. The condition for receiving eternal life is to believe on Him (Jn 3:15,16, 5:24,6:47). The result for believing on Him and receiving eternal life is that they shall never perish. John 10:28

Those who meet those conditions will receive eternal life.

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Right. When one believes in Him, they receive eternal life. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47.

Paul noted the same thing in 1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Those who would add anything about lifestyle are Pharisees, pushing a system of works salvation.

JLB said:

Please let's do examine what Jesus actually said, since what He said about eternal life in no where to be found in your post.

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That's what I've been hoping from you for some time.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

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Please don't forget John 10:9 about how one is saved: by entering through Him, the gate. Those are His sheep.

v.27 is merely a description of who His sheep are. Not a requirement to be His sheep, as commonly claimed.

And don't forget John 3:15,16, 5:24, and 6:47. In these 4 verses, Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life. iow, that's WHEN they possess eternal life. WHEN they believe. Not some time afterwards, as some claim.

JLB said:

While I agree with what you say, initially, we also must understand that believing and teaching false doctrine, can lead to loss of salvation.

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you

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Unless one understands what Paul meant by "save yourself", and wrongly assumes he was referring to how not to lose salvation, they must believe that Paul and Jesus were in contradiction with each other.

For Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. So, if one could perish, then Jesus either didn't mean what He said, or He was just wrong. I wouldn't want to argue either of those extreme positions.

What Jesus said is quite clear; from the moment one believes, they have (by receiving) eternal life, from John 3:15,16, 5:24, and 6:47), and having received eternal life, they shall never perish.

So the notion that one can lose salvation is impossible, from what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life. John 10:28

wondering said:

FreeGrace,
Sometimes I talk about feelings. Don't let that confuse you.
I NEVER go by feelings, I go by what I know to be true.

And as far as John 10:28, I couldn't agree more.
Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep.

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Do you also agree with the second part of that statement? That those He gives eternal life shall never perish?

Of course, one has to BE one of His sheep to get this eternal life Jesus speaks of.

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I don't believe that's the issue regarding John 10:28. The issue is only the result for those He gives eternal life.

It was certainly the Will of our Lord that all who came to Him would remain IN HIM.

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OK. Now, given that it is His will, is it possible that any of those who have been placed in Him can be removed from being in Him?

What I'm asking is this: can His will be thwarted?

But, alas, we do retain free will even after salvation so some do get lost, but happily knowing God is a beautiful experience and we tend to want to stay near Him.

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Does this mean that free will thwarts God's will?

Angel Water said:

I wouldn't agree that everyone knows about the two great commands. Not even among the universal body of our Lord is this demonstrated. Christian community discussion sites give proof of that often enough isn't it? As you made mention you know the reason for my signature would recall. Yes?

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I see your point!
Maybe the problem is not that we don't know them but that we don't practice them.
There's an ocean of difference between just saying something and actually doing something.

I hope everyone understands that your signature line is sarcastic and tongue in cheek.

Recall these two have always been with us: Deuteronomy 6:5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. And, Leviticus 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people,but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

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Everything Jesus spoke was from the O.T. Of course.

Remember too that we were told in the Book of Jeremiah that God's law was written inside our hearts. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33

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Also Ezekiel 36:26
God will remove our heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh.

Doctrine holds us together?
How many denominations are there? How many versions of our God's words are there?
Did Jesus die to deliver doctrine to the world? If so, which one?
How many faithful believe in the Bible? While Christ gets lost in the words.
God inspired his word to be received by humankind. He delivered himself into the human flesh and blood as Son of man, and God himself, to bring his Holy Spirit truth in words given by His breath unto his Disciples so that they would breath truth to the world in their journey.
God isn't found on the page. God's laws are written inside us, where He told us dwells the Kingdom of Heaven.

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I hear much frustration in your words. Some still have their heart of stone.
And every so often, the heart of stone makes its ugly appearance in all of us.

Christ gets lost in the words --- you're right.
We are not people of the Book. The bible did not save us, Jesus saved us.
We ought to listen to the Living Word. Jesus IS the WORD of God. HE is the Word, not the words in the pages of the bible.

But we do need to have a way to find out about Him. The bible is a magical book. There's no other book like it. Even great words written by great Teachers of other religions do not sound like the bible. Although written over a period of 1,500 years, it sounds like one book and has one theme.

As far as the doctrine, it was held together until the Reformation.
Our Christian faith is becomining more and more corroded every day.
This is definitely not what Jesus had in mind.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14
12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Rather than follow, why not seek.

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Seek what?
There is so much confusion.
We find our Savior.
Then there is also some Learning to be done.
[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace said:

Do you also agree with the second part of that statement? That those He gives eternal life shall never perish?[/QUOTE]

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FreeGrace said:

FreeGrace said:

Those to whom Jesus gives eternal life, will have eternal life.
Jesus does not lie.

Jesus said that God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit.
John 4:24

So, yes, as long as we worship God in spirit, we have eternal life.


I don't believe that's the issue regarding John 10:28. The issue is only the result for those He gives eternal life.

Sorry. I don't understand what the issue is.
John 10:28 is speaking about sheep that belong to Jesus.

verse 27 says that the sheep hear Jesus' words, He knows them, and they follow Him. So, yes, He gives eternal life to the sheep that are His and that follow Him.
I would suppose that those are a couple of conditions.
One, they have to hear the voice.
Two, they have to follow it.


OK. Now, given that it is His will, is it possible that any of those who have been placed in Him can be removed from being in Him?

Those who HAVE BEEN PLACED In Him?
Who exactly placed me In Him?
I like to think that His hand was opened to me, and I walked into it.
True love is when you willingly love, not when you're forcefully placed "into" it.

And No, I don't believe anyone can snatch us out of His hand.
But we could walk out the same way we walked in.

What I'm asking is this: can His will be thwarted?
Does this mean that free will thwarts God's will?

If you believe we have free will then you must also believe that God allows us to use it, since it's He who gave it to us.

So, yes, unless God is willing to intervene is every facet of your life, He WILL let you use your free will.

Does God not will that all men be saved?
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9

Are all men saved?
No.
So, yes, God does not Always get what He wants because it's up to us and our free will to accept His invitation for salvation.

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wondering said:

Chessman,

I had asked you something a while back and never got an answer.
Or maybe I forgot to ask... anyway, could you tell me this:

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The post I found mentioned this passage but had no questions for me (I checked) so you must be mistaken. I have answered ALL relavent and non-assumptive questions by others (unlike several members here that have simply ignored many of my questions). Because weak arguments fall apart when they cannot provide logical and Biblically supported answers to opposing questions, I like that others ask me these type questions. Maybe I'm wrong about God actually demonstrating His power and destroying the wicked in Hell. But no passages posted so far have indicated that wicked, post-judgment humans live forever in torment in Hell. None. Including this one. Yes Revelations says the Devil and His demons suffer torment in Hell forever evidently. But applying that verse to humans is simply not applying an applicable verse.

wondering said:

What do you make of Luke 16:19-31?

The saved had died.
The unsaved had died.

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Yes, the wicked body of The Rich Man had died (http://biblehub.com/greek/apethanen_599.htm) yet his soul lived in Hades which is not the same as destroyed in Hell. Yet His brothers were living on the old Earth still. He'd not been raised nor faced judgment day yet.

It's not teaching anything about the final judgment or Hell for that matter. The place Jesus mentioned where the rich man is awaiting Judgment is Hades (http://biblehub.com/greek/ade__86.htm), not Gehenna (http://biblehub.com/greek/geenne__1067.htm) nor the Lake of Fire. As we can see in Rev 20:13, Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire. Obviously, they are not the same place.

Angel Water said:

I feel compelled to ask why should I accept your teachings when you sign them with the Yiddish word that means, crazy? Iakov the crazy?

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It reminds me that I'm not as smart as I imagine.

Angel Water said:

That's a bit harsh and impatient of you isn't it?

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No.
I've been trying to get a straight answer from him for days and he repeatedly avoids answering.
So why ask for an answer from someone who refuses to give one?

iakov the meshuganeh

FreeGrace said:

What is meant by "language of the scripture"? I noted the EXACT WORDS from the verses I noted.

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You quoted a part of a verse with no context.

John 10:28 is a "part" of a complete statement.

The word "And" is the dead giveaway, in verse 28.

You quoted the result of meeting the condition which is found in verse 27.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Hearing His voice and following Him is a prerequisite for eternal life.

Those sheep who follow Him for a while then turn away from following Him become lost.

A sheep who is lost, is as a sinner in need of repentance.

The end result of hearing [hearkening in obedience] and following Him is receiving eternal life at the resurrection.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

Can you point out where in John 10:28, Jesus said that those who follow Him, would immediately receive eternal life in which they would never die anymore.


JLB

Jim Parker said:

I've been trying to get a straight answer from him for days and he repeatedly avoids answering.

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Post straight questions you'll get straight answers. Only fools answer loaded/assumptive questions as there are no straight answers to them.

I have answered every single non-assumptive question in this thread (unlike yourself).

FreeGrace said:

That's what I've been hoping from you for some time.

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Since you avoided answering each point of the scriptures I quoted, and the points addressed that are from the scriptures it is doubtful you want to discuss scripture.



John 10:28 is a "part" of a complete statement.

The word "And" is the dead giveaway, in verse 28.

You quoted the result of meeting the condition which is found in verse 27.

• Eternal life is the end result of living a life of faithful obedience to the Lord who dwells within us.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Then when we back up a little further we see that believe is the condition, that actually manifest's as a result of hearing, then the following or being led, is the result of believing.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28


The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Those who do not believe are not His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.
Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep
Believe means commit, trust obey.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB
Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, are not His sheep.

• But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Our Master is the one we obey:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• Condition #2 - Hear His voice

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken

Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.

• But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
• But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV

We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:

• if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.

The essential and biblical definition of eternal life is to knowing Him.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Which brings us to condition # 3

• Condition # 3 - Know Him - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.

Relationship; Joined in covenant relationship;

In Hebrew thought this word is used of a union between a man and his wife.

Mary said it this way -

• Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:34

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

The condition or test of knowing Him is: if we obey Him

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
• and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Key essential elements of eternal life: Knowing Him and Obeying Him.

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Condition # 4 - Follow

Follow means to join as a disciple the one you are following.

Following is the evidence you believe.


This principle is made clear in John 6, where some disciples left from following Him because they didn't want do what He said, because the didn't understand what He said, and therefore no longer believed in Him


61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:61-69


Key verse's:

• But there are some of you who do not believe.
• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
  
• Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
  
• You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Following is the evidence of believing.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.


The next point to be discussed is can a sheep become lost?



JLB

chessman said:

Post straight questions you'll get straight answers.

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I did.
You didn't.
Bye.

FreeGrace said:

Yes, He did. The condition for receiving eternal life is to believe on Him (Jn 3:15,16, 5:24,6:47). The result for believing on Him and receiving eternal life is that they shall never perish. John 10:28

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26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28


The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Those who do not believe are not His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.
Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep
Believe means commit, trust obey.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB

Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, don't follow Him as Lord, and therefore they become lost.

• But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Our Master is the one we obey:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

JLB said:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

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This is not even a complete sentence. If your read the complete sentence we find out (versus obscure) exactly what faith it is Paul is teaching will happen in later times:


Do you teach that newly born creatures in Christ will be rejected?

FreeGrace said:

From these 4 verses, we know that one possesses eternal life WHEN one believes, not at some theoretical point after placing one's faith in Christ. If there is disagreement on this point, please guide me to the specific verses that tell us plainly WHEN one is given eternal life. However, we know that any such verse, if it exists, would only show the Scripture to be internally contradicted, since the 4 noted verses are clear enough for anyone to understand. WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. It isn't given later on. That's a false assumption.

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Since you don't quote what Jesus actually said, how do you know?

When you make a point then quote what the scriptures say if that is what they really say.


Since there are no scriptures and context that say we are given eternal life and will never die, at they moment we believe, with no need to hear His voice or follow Him, or know Him, then we can all see why you want post any scripture for your unbiblical belief.


Here is who will receive eternal life:

• those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead...nor can they die anymore

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


again


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

and again


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Eternal life will be given to those who hear His Voice, and follow Him in obedience, when He comes on that Day.


His sheep who wander from the truth and become lost, have lost their salvation and will perish if they do not repent and come back to Him.

• Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
• Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32


again


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.




JLB

Jim Parker said:

I did.

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Nope. Just because you think and claimed you asked a straightforward question doesn't make your claim true.

Your loaded question is

Jim Parker said:

Do you or do you not accept the JHW/SDA heretical teaching of the annihilation of the wicked dead?

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I demonstrated how this question makes four assumptions, all in one question

chessman said:

That question is not a logically phrased question.

"A loaded question or complex question fallacy is a question that contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt). ... Only when some of these presuppositions are not necessarily agreed to by the person who is asked the question does the argument containing them become fallacious."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
...​

You not only assume your own 'answers' within this complex question are true, you claim it to be the truth when it's not been proven.



1. This question assumes I know what the SDA/JW teach.

2. This questions assumes I accept what they teach.

3. This question assumes what they teach is heretical.

4, This question assumes the SDA and JW teach the same thing about the annihilation of the wicked dead.

That's a lot of assumptions loaded into one 'question'.

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chessman said:

The post I found mentioned this passage but had no questions for me (I checked) so you must be mistaken. I have answered ALL relavent and non-assumptive questions by others (unlike several members here that have simply ignored many of my questions). Because weak arguments fall apart when they cannot provide logical and Biblically supported answers to opposing questions, I like that others ask me these type questions. Maybe I'm wrong about God actually demonstrating His power and destroying the wicked in Hell. But no passages posted so far have indicated that wicked, post-judgment humans live forever in torment in Hell. None. Including this one. Yes Revelations says the Devil and His demons suffer torment in Hell forever evidently. But applying that verse to humans is simply not applying an applicable verse.


Yes, the wicked body of The Rich Man had died (http://biblehub.com/greek/apethanen_599.htm) yet his soul lived in Hades which is not the same as destroyed in Hell. Yet His brothers were living on the old Earth still. He'd not been raised nor faced judgment day yet.

It's not teaching anything about the final judgment or Hell for that matter. The place Jesus mentioned where the rich man is awaiting Judgment is Hades (http://biblehub.com/greek/ade__86.htm), not Gehenna (http://biblehub.com/greek/geenne__1067.htm) nor the Lake of Fire. As we can see in Rev 20:13, Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire. Obviously, they are not the same place.

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Chessman,
You fell apart after I left!!
You don't seem to be able to answer questions.
I asked a specific question about Luke 16:19-31

It's an important question:
Last Try Again:

The saved were in Abraham's Bossom.
The UNSAVED were NOT in Abraham's Bossom.
They were in a very unpleasant place.
Any place where God is not, is hell, since it isn't heaven.

All those O.T. places are no longer valid.
There is only heaven and hell.
Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8

Jesus said to the thief on the cross:
"This very day you will be with me in Paradise"
Luke 23:43

Wherever PARADISE was, it was NOT hell.

So:
WHY weren't the lost annihilated?
WHY were they in this unpleasant place while the saved, instead, were in Abraham's Bossom?

If there a future date, for example, when they WILL be annihilated?

So, in your opinion, some will go directly to heaven,
but the lost will not go directly to be annihilated?

I hoped to respond to your post but the quote box included all of our exchanges together.