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What is "natural law" ?

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Mr. Bolts, you are putting yourself outside the Bible and into the middle of worldly thought when you suggest homosexuals go to heaven.
The Bible says be fruitful and multiply.
It doesn't say feel free to live a lifestyle of sodomy.
Respectfully, you are ignorant to what I believe and have read into what I have written your own thoughts, not mine.
The laws of nature show that if you jump into a pool of hot lava, you will cease to exist because simply put, lava burns flesh.
Natural law does not stop anyone from jumping into a pool of hot lava on their own accord.
Again, the laws of nature did not stop Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit any more than the laws of God tell us not to lie, steel or cheat. Yet one doesn't have to look far to see liars, cheaters or thieves. Does this nullify natural law? Of course not. We tell children, do not touch the hot stove, but does flesh burn if it touches a flame? Of course it does.

This is simple to understand. But natural law is so much more. It appears random at times, and not partial to humans. Natural law has shown that earthquakes can be deadly. Floods can wipe out entire cities and fires burn communities without bias just as it rains on the wicked as well as on the righteous.

I hope this clears your misunderstanding of what I had recently posted. If not, please refrain from accusing me of your own ideas, but rather, please ask me to explain it to you in a way you understand.

Jeff
 
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Respectfully, you are ignorant to what I believe and have read into what I have written your own thoughts, not mine.
The laws of nature show that if you jump into a pool of hot lava, you will cease to exist because simply put, lava burns flesh.
Natural law does not stop anyone from jumping into a pool of hot lava on their own accord.
Again, the laws of nature did not stop Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit any more than the laws of God tell us not to lie, steel or cheat. Yet one doesn't have to look far to see liars, cheaters or thieves. Does this nullify natural law? Of course not. We tell children, do not touch the hot stove, but does flesh burn if it touches a flame? Of course it does.

This is simple to understand. But natural law is so much more. It appears random at times, and not partial to humans. Natural law has shown that earthquakes can be deadly. Floods can wipe out entire cities and fires burn communities without bias just as it rains on the wicked as well as on the righteous.

I hope this clears your misunderstanding of what I had recently posted. If not, please refrain from accusing me of your own ideas, but rather, please ask me to explain it to you in a way you understand.

Jeff
Dear Mr. Bolts, I simply stated homosexuals fall outside of natural law.
You answered with "Is it?' then continued with an answer that I do not see answering my statement.
Therefore, if you would simply answer my statement without any confusion on your part, then there would be no need for any static between us.
Thank you
 
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Dear Mr. Bolts, I simply stated homosexuals fall outside of natural law.
You answered with "Is it?' then continued with an answer that I do not see answering my statement.
Therefore, if you would simply answer my statement without any confusion on your part, then there would be no need for any static between us.
Thank you
How are you defining natural law on the matter?
 
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Not to be rude, but that means homosexuals fall outside of natural law.
His post does not lead to such a conclusion.

You'll notice that there are at least two different understandings of natural law given in this thread. What do you mean by "natural law"?
 
How are you defining natural law on the matter?
Mathtew 19:4-6;
"Haven't you read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said, for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate".

To me, this is natural law, God's law, and there is no room for homosexuality here.
 
His post does not lead to such a conclusion.

You'll notice that there are at least two different understandings of natural law given in this thread. What do you mean by "natural law"?
Post #27.
I brought up homosexuality being outside of God's law (natural law).
If you all would like me to stop talking about it, just make your request and it shall be so.
 
This is a general post.
I've explained this a few times and am just going to post something from the internet.
The first thing I found.

NATURAL LAW is different from the LAW OF NATURE.
Natural Law pertains to the Laws of God which are moral in nature and Law of Nature pertains to laws like gravity (also made by God but not moral in nature)...:


The natural law of moral theology "receives this name not because it refers to the nature of irrational things but because the reason which promulgates it is proper to human nature" (VS 42). The moral law is called natural law because it is based on our nature as rational beings. It is not based on the nature of irrational beings, such as animals, plants, or inanimate matter. When scientists refer to the laws of nature, they mean physical laws such as the law of gravity or the laws of thermodynamics.
 
How are you defining natural law on the matter?
Hi SB
This is for Allen Wynne.
However, I'd just like to say that he's right on this.
Natural Law pertains to the Laws that were created by God and that have to do with morality.
I posted something from the internet above. Homosexuality, although it might exist, is not within the natural order or law of how God meant things to be. Genesis was correctly posted. Just because something exists does not make it a natural law.
 
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Post #27.
I brought up homosexuality being outside of God's law (natural law).
If you all would like me to stop talking about it, just make your request and it shall be so.
None of that addresses what I posted.
 
Mathtew 19:4-6;
"Haven't you read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said, for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate".

To me, this is natural law, God's law, and there is no room for homosexuality here.
We are simply defining natural law differently.
It appears that you are defining natural law, as Gods written law aka Gods instruction manual. I am defining natural law as the way God put his creation in motion.
Two different topics, and the root of our misunderstandings.
 
Hi SB
This is for Allen Wynne.
However, I'd just like to say that he's right on this.
Natural Law pertains to the Laws that were created by God and that have to do with morality.
I posted something from the internet above. Homosexuality, although it might exist, is not within the natural order or law of how God meant things to be. Genesis was correctly posted. Just because something exists does not make it a natural law.
It appears to me that you see two different laws.
1. Morality (How God meant them to be)
2. Life (How things really are)

Explain this to me a little bit more if you would.
 
It appears to me that you see two different laws.
1. Morality (How God meant them to be)
2. Life (How things really are)

Explain this to me a little bit more if you would.
Natural Law is God's law.
It's law that is basically accepted by all of civilized society.
For example, every person is born with an innate knowledge of what is right and wrong which we all could agree with. Even atheists agree with natural law although subjective morals are changing that.

Murder is wrong. Everyone knows this even without having to study the 10 Commandments.
Stealing is wrong. We're born with the knowledge that these things are wrong. Every religion, or non-religion, accepts this. This could also be called a Moral Law.

The Law of Nature is the law that has to do with creation and with the laws God set in motion to determine how things operate. For instance, apples fall down. Gravity. Things wear out, thermodynamics, Energy = MC2, etc. It could be called physics, or astronomy and the such.

So there is a difference between the Natural Law and the Law of Nature.
They do get mixed up, but they ARE different.

This is the best I can do. To do a better job would require someone more knowledgeable or a philosopher. This is their field.
 
This is a general post.
I've explained this a few times and am just going to post something from the internet.
The first thing I found.

NATURAL LAW is different from the LAW OF NATURE.
Natural Law pertains to the Laws of God which are moral in nature and Law of Nature pertains to laws like gravity (also made by God but not moral in nature)...:


The natural law of moral theology "receives this name not because it refers to the nature of irrational things but because the reason which promulgates it is proper to human nature" (VS 42). The moral law is called natural law because it is based on our nature as rational beings. It is not based on the nature of irrational beings, such as animals, plants, or inanimate matter. When scientists refer to the laws of nature, they mean physical laws such as the law of gravity or the laws of thermodynamics.
If this is how you and Allen are defining natural law and are both in agreement, then you are correct.

However, parsing the two comes with its own set of biblical issues, such as who is considered rational, and who gets to define rational?

In your terms, the law of nature dictates who is tall, who is small. Who runs fast, and who has no legs from birth to run at all. The law of nature causes some to be brilliant minded, while others are gifted with autism. Yet others struggle with schizophrenia while others only mild retardation.

The same laws of nature wreak havoc by way of earthquakes, floods and tornados, disease and pestulance, not to mention drought.

From a biblical view, God places boundaries upon all these things. We are not fearful of a global flood, are we? Cats will not give birth to dogs, and a hammer will fall if one drops it.
 
If this is how you and Allen are defining natural law and are both in agreement, then you are correct.

However, parsing the two comes with its own set of biblical issues, such as who is considered rational, and who gets to define rational?

In your terms, the law of nature dictates who is tall, who is small. Who runs fast, and who has no legs from birth to run at all. The law of nature causes some to be brilliant minded, while others are gifted with autism. Yet others struggle with schizophrenia while others only mild retardation.

The same laws of nature wreak havoc by way of earthquakes, floods and tornados, disease and pestulance, not to mention drought.

From a biblical view, God places boundaries upon all these things. We are not fearful of a global flood, are we? Cats will not give birth to dogs, and a hammer will fall if one drops it.
But this is the issue. It has nothing to do with the bible.
It does for US, because we believe in God, but everyone who is civilized, even those who do NOT believe in God, have to agree with the Natural Law. We are all moral persons, even those who are not saved. (I said all, but I mean those who are - not ALL are moral persons).

For US, God gets to define who is rational and who is moral. For others, it is the majority of persons that create what is "normal". Normal, after all, is what the majority accepts. (outside of Christianity).

The Law of Nature, OTOH, does cause all those birth conditions you mention because it has to do with how our DNA works...it has nothing to do with morals. It has to do with how things WORK. Which is why, for us, when something works against this to reverse it, it is called a miracle; because the law of nature has been reversed, and this requires a true miracle. Non- Christians don't even expect any miracles.

Your last two paragraphs are, of course, correct.
 
But this is the issue. It has nothing to do with the bible.
It does for US, because we believe in God, but everyone who is civilized, even those who do NOT believe in God, have to agree with the Natural Law. We are all moral persons, even those who are not saved. (I said all, but I mean those who are - not ALL are moral persons).

For US, God gets to define who is rational and who is moral. For others, it is the majority of persons that create what is "normal". Normal, after all, is what the majority accepts. (outside of Christianity).

The Law of Nature, OTOH, does cause all those birth conditions you mention because it has to do with how our DNA works...it has nothing to do with morals. It has to do with how things WORK. Which is why, for us, when something works against this to reverse it, it is called a miracle; because the law of nature has been reversed, and this requires a true miracle. Non- Christians don't even expect any miracles.

Your last two paragraphs are, of course, correct.

The Law of Nature and Natural Law are tied together.
God set the world in motion perfectly.
When man sinned, God's Laws took a whole new course.
When man pulled ore out of the ground and sent all the refuse down the river, a chain reaction was set in place.
The river became polluted, the fish died, it smelled bad, it became a bio-hazardous hell hole.
God's Law (Natural Law) was broken by man and God's Law of Nature paid the consequences as well.
The physical and the spiritual have been tied together since day one.
 
The Law of Nature and Natural Law are tied together.
God set the world in motion perfectly.
When man sinned, God's Laws took a whole new course.
When man pulled ore out of the ground and sent all the refuse down the river, a chain reaction was set in place.
The river became polluted, the fish died, it smelled bad, it became a bio-hazardous hell hole.
God's Law (Natural Law) was broken by man and God's Law of Nature paid the consequences as well.
The physical and the spiritual have been tied together since day one.
Interesting concept.
Of course everything changed after the fall.
But you have to agree that even non-christians follow the natural law.
We know that it is God's law,. But atheists may not know this unless they're pretty intelligent and have pondered this question.
 
But this is the issue. It has nothing to do with the bible.
It does for US, because we believe in God, but everyone who is civilized, even those who do NOT believe in God, have to agree with the Natural Law. We are all moral persons, even those who are not saved. (I said all, but I mean those who are - not ALL are moral persons).

For US, God gets to define who is rational and who is moral. For others, it is the majority of persons that create what is "normal". Normal, after all, is what the majority accepts. (outside of Christianity).

The Law of Nature, OTOH, does cause all those birth conditions you mention because it has to do with how our DNA works...it has nothing to do with morals. It has to do with how things WORK. Which is why, for us, when something works against this to reverse it, it is called a miracle; because the law of nature has been reversed, and this requires a true miracle. Non- Christians don't even expect any miracles.

Your last two paragraphs are, of course, correct.
I understand what you are saying, and from your perspective I find no argument. Nor do I see any harm in your way of thinking.

I suppose I just have a bigger bucket that I throw things in and parse differently.

For me, I see God in all things. Ephesians 4:6 and Colosians 1:17 as reference. When God created the heavens and the earth, what did he make them out of? In other words, what existed outside of God prior to creation? My conclusion is nothing exists outside of God according to the verses I cited.

When God created the heavens and the earth, they were void and without form. In other words, they were without order. What we see in Genesis 1 is God bringing order out of chaos.

And it is interesting how he does it, because he empowers creation. Let me explain. God creates the trees by empowering the earth to bring them forth. Then he empowers the trees to multiply by seed of their own kind. God creates the trees by the empowerment he has both granted, and given.

When God created Adam and formed Eve, he also empowered them by granting and giving that same power, and more. And he blessed them by placing them in a garden, where all was in harmony.

Outside the garden chaos still reigned, and it was humanities duty to subdue it, and expand Eden. But to maintain this harmony, they had one rule. Don't eat of that tree.

To say don't eat of something that looks like the other things that your allowed to eat goes against what is naturally pleasing to the eye, and may not naturally make since. As a result, a negative rule / commandment is made to prevent harm to an otherwise natural reaction. As such, i do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. Simply put, they had the same choice we have today... the ability to create harmony, or create chaos.

What does this have to do with natural law you might ask. Everything, because down deep, do we worship a powerful God, or a just and merciful God?

People who experience tragedy may look at their experience as punishment from God, or may think God unfair, and unjust. They do not see that God has put things in a natural order, and by doing so, has set limits and as a result, they do not see his mercy, nor that he is just.

A homosexual may have natural tendencies for the same sex caused by a hormonal imbalance or other natural malfunction to Gods original design just as drug addicts have defeciecies in the brain that make them suseptable to drug abuse and addiction. But the Good news, is that with Christ, all things are possible and just because one is genetically predisposed to homosexual urges, doesn't mean once they come to Christ that a miracle happens and the urges disappear. They are still at the mercy of natural law, or the law of nature as you put it.

In short, I see it this way. I see Gods Laws which were given to specific people at specific times. And I see these in harmony with Gods natural laws.
 
The Law of Nature and Natural Law are tied together.
God set the world in motion perfectly.
When man sinned, God's Laws took a whole new course.
When man pulled ore out of the ground and sent all the refuse down the river, a chain reaction was set in place.
The river became polluted, the fish died, it smelled bad, it became a bio-hazardous hell hole.
God's Law (Natural Law) was broken by man and God's Law of Nature paid the consequences as well.
The physical and the spiritual have been tied together since day one.

We are on the same page, we are just using different nomenclature.

Where there are no laws, there are no trespasses. However, laws were added to show the trespasses.
 
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