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so if you never get around to learning torah wisdom to apply for yourself i am confident that God and you will have a wonderful time learning many other wonderful things - and i will be very interested in hearing of anything God teaches you because i love to learn as much as i can

I’ve enjoyed our conversation on this topic and indeed learned some things from it. Thanks for your interaction and answering my questions.

I’d recommend a scholar of Jewish Traditions (in Jesus’s day): Dr. David Instone-Brewer. The following is a more scholarly (and the price reflects it ☹️) work on the Feasts and Sabbaths. I picked this volume up used somewhere (I forget) and have enjoyed it.

Traditions of the Rabbis from the Era of the New Testament: Feasts and Sabbaths: Passover and Atonement v. 2A by David Instone-Brewer (2007-11-01) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K0Q080U/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_PkknCbRKC4FJC

You might google him as at one point much of his work (drafts of what got published) was available for free on a website. The link I had seems to be down now though.

He’s also published a quick little read (more affordable, $5 used) that is quite interesting (and witty at times, in a British way):

The Jesus Scandals: Why He Shocked His Contemporaries (and Still Shocks Today) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0857210238/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_TvknCb87C9NYF

Until reading some of DIB’s work, I thought all of Jesus’s parables were original to Him (and some probably are). But several of the parables He taught from predate His 1st Century birth (not surprising really when you think about it). Jesus emphasized the 1st Century’s Rabbis errors of Biblical interpretation more than I ever realized before.

Anyway, to summarize, I could probably nit-pick a lot of what you’ve said about the application of Torah to a NT Christian (especially a Gentile one) but most all of my ‘nits’ are simply semantic (“should” vs “can” vs “must”) or my misunderstanding you to begin with. As you probably have with me and with what I’ve tried to point out. Take care.

Selah
 
I’ve enjoyed our conversation on this topic and indeed learned some things from it. Thanks for your interaction and answering my questions.

I’d recommend a scholar of Jewish Traditions (in Jesus’s day): Dr. David Instone-Brewer. The following is a more scholarly (and the price reflects it ☹) work on the Feasts and Sabbaths. I picked this volume up used somewhere (I forget) and have enjoyed it.

Traditions of the Rabbis from the Era of the New Testament: Feasts and Sabbaths: Passover and Atonement v. 2A by David Instone-Brewer (2007-11-01) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K0Q080U/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_PkknCbRKC4FJC

You might google him as at one point much of his work (drafts of what got published) was available for free on a website. The link I had seems to be down now though.

He’s also published a quick little read (more affordable, $5 used) that is quite interesting (and witty at times, in a British way):

The Jesus Scandals: Why He Shocked His Contemporaries (and Still Shocks Today) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0857210238/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_TvknCb87C9NYF

Until reading some of DIB’s work, I thought all of Jesus’s parables were original to Him (and some probably are). But several of the parables He taught from predate His 1st Century birth (not surprising really when you think about it). Jesus emphasized the 1st Century’s Rabbis errors of Biblical interpretation more than I ever realized before.

Anyway, to summarize, I could probably nit-pick a lot of what you’ve said about the application of Torah to a NT Christian (especially a Gentile one) but most all of my ‘nits’ are simply semantic (“should” vs “can” vs “must”) or my misunderstanding you to begin with. As you probably have with me and with what I’ve tried to point out. Take care.

Selah
thank you for the recommendations - i will see if i can find his material - what are your favorite points he makes? - or is it simply that he presents a lot of history
 
what are your favorite points he makes?
The most interesting to me was about divorce in Jesus’s day. Evidently it was a hot political topic of the day. Kinda like same sex marriage is today. Which is why the Pharisees tried to trap Him on various divorce questions. I’d always just assumed 1st Century Jews just never really divorced. Wrong! Jesus’s teaching on divorce corrected pretty much all they were doing with divorce though. They (the men) had developed what we call today as ‘no fault divorce’ by using some pretty devious and loss ‘interpretation’ of Torah. But of course they couldn’t call it ‘no fault’ divorcing. They had to claim the wife had broken their marriage vow somehow. So they called it ‘any cause’ divorcing. The ‘cause’ was pretty much anything the men could drum up besides the only Biblical one (adultery). They ‘used’ Deut 24:1. Evidently in the Hebrew it says if a man divorces his wife due to the “cause” of “adultery” ... So they ‘interpreted’ that to mean divorce was legal with “adultery” and (in addition to) “any cause”. It sounds silly but evidently that’s what the liberal lawyers (the Pharisees) of Jesus’s day had come up with. No more silly than much the SCOTUS comes up with. The Shammaites (the conservatives) took they more traditional view of adultery only being the cause.

Thus they asked him:
And Pharisees came up to him in order to test him, and asked if it was permitted for a man to divorce his wife for any cause.
Matthew 19:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:3&version=LEB

He corrected the Pharisees and sided with the Shammaites on this one. Evidently it pissed the Pharisees off a bit too :)

Anyway, they were debating “any cause” divorce in Jesus’s day much like we are “same sex” marriage today.

Or now I guess a “border wall” or a “fence”.
 
The most interesting to me was about divorce in Jesus’s day. Evidently it was a hot political topic of the day. Kinda like same sex marriage is today. Which is why the Pharisees tried to trap Him on various divorce questions. I’d always just assumed 1st Century Jews just never really divorced. Wrong! Jesus’s teaching on divorce corrected pretty much all they were doing with divorce though. They (the men) had developed what we call today as ‘no fault divorce’ by using some pretty devious and loss ‘interpretation’ of Torah. But of course they couldn’t call it ‘no fault’ divorcing. They had to claim the wife had broken their marriage vow somehow. So they called it ‘any cause’ divorcing. The ‘cause’ was pretty much anything the men could drum up besides the only Biblical one (adultery). They ‘used’ Deut 24:1. Evidently in the Hebrew it says if a man divorces his wife due to the “cause” of “adultery” ... So they ‘interpreted’ that to mean divorce was legal with “adultery” and (in addition to) “any cause”. It sounds silly but evidently that’s what the liberal lawyers (the Pharisees) of Jesus’s day had come up with. No more silly than much the SCOTUS comes up with. The Shammaites (the conservatives) took they more traditional view of adultery only being the cause.

Thus they asked him:
And Pharisees came up to him in order to test him, and asked if it was permitted for a man to divorce his wife for any cause.
Matthew 19:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:3&version=LEB

He corrected the Pharisees and sided with the Shammaites on this one. Evidently it pissed the Pharisees off a bit too :)

Anyway, they were debating “any cause” divorce in Jesus’s day much like we are “same sex” marriage today.

Or now I guess a “border wall” or a “fence”.
wow - very interesting - this makes a lot of sense - some people do try to twist God's word to do the selfish things they wish to do - fabricating a false narrative about what is really going on - fake news to justify themselves
 
wow - very interesting - this makes a lot of sense - some people do try to twist God's word to do the selfish things they wish to do - fabricating a false narrative about what is really going on - fake news to justify themselves
Yes. The Scandals book is all about that. The “any cause” divorce was just one chapter of about 30 as I recall.
 
Yes. The Scandals book is all about that. The “any cause” divorce was just one chapter of about 30 as I recall.
awesome - i will try to find that book then

do you remember what he concluded about this?

why do some religious leaders do this kind of thing? - put a heavy burden on others and then not lift a finger to help people come out from under the burden?

i had a conversation with someone recently about those who rise to power in corporations and politics etc

we were discussing how good people normally don't want positions of power and often decline the opportunity when offered to them

this means that people with ulterior selfish motives are often the only ones to accept and even pursue positions of power

good people need to see power positions as an opportunity to help people and declining such positions as a failure to protect people from the unscrupulous power hungry people

iow as distasteful as it is to accept a position of power good people need to take those positions when offered to them

i took a position of power once with an organization - it was offered to me because i was so happy positive and helpful - while in power i learned the higher echelons were corrupt - i foolishly started asking them questions about their treatment of the people under their power - in the end they concocted false and unproven allegations against me and removed me from power - actually i guess that happened to me at least 3 times with 3 different organizations - so perhaps that is one reason why good people don't want positions of power - but still we need good people to take positions of power for the good of us all - and if we find ourselves in a corrupt organization i guess we need to quietly and safely leave rather than confront corrupt higher echelon people regarding their corrupt behavior -

in all 3 situations i stayed rather than leave because i was hoping things would change - but in all 3 cases i was falsely accused as a legal means to remove me - no harm came to me because the false accusations could not be proven - but interesting that to cover their own corruption they tried to smear my integrity - thank God for His protection and vindication
 
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do you remember what he concluded about this?

why do some religious leaders do this kind of thing? - put a heavy burden on others and then not lift a finger to help people come out from under the burden?
You nailed it already. HYPOCRISY!
There’s a chapter one it. But all the “scandals” Jesus addresses to the religious leaders of His day were/are related to hypocrisy and hard-heartedness. He didn’t just call them hypocrites, He showed them how they were. Including in their so-called “any cause” divorce policy. God ‘allows’ divorce because of hard-heartedness and His Torah reflects that. But it’s not the ideal.

Which relates, I think (know actually if you study what Jesus actually taught about Torah within their culture, not our perception of it), to what you’re saying about following Torah today (Jew or Gentile). And especially trying to follow someone else’s ‘interpretations’ thereof. Torah was (always was, always will be) a practical solution to the real problem (a heart problem). I can show you several specific examples but it’s better if you discover them in Jesus’s teaching yourself really. Look at His healing on the Sabbath, for example, and their reaction. Jesus didn’t give a hoot about their accusations of ‘working’ on the Sabbath. He cared about people!

The book is simply a resource that would help with that (culture) I think.

The man’s basically read every scrap of 1-2 Century Jewish writings archeologists have ever discovered (religous and otherwise) so he’s an expert on their culture (I am not). Frankly, even more so than most modern Jews are today. So what the book does is put a lot of Jesus’s teaching into THEIR perspective/culture, not ours. Mine especially. I assume you are Jewish. But keep in mind, you’re not 1st Century Jewish.

good people need to see power positions as an opportunity to help people and declining such positions as a failure to protect people from the unscrupulous power hungry people
Man, you are spot on!
I so wish more Christians would pursue political positions. Every one I know personally that does, I give them thanks for their willingness (gumption frankly) serving in their capacity. Even some I probably disagree with politically. Most are floored as they seem to have never heard “thanks” before. They just get gripped at, day after day after day.


if we find ourselves in a corrupt organization i guess we need to quietly and safely leave rather than confront corrupt people regarding their corrupt behavior
I don’t know that I’d agree with that. But every life situation is different (and challenging). Take the “any cause” divorce situation/corruption of His day. Jesus wasn’t quite about it. I meant to point out previously, by the way, He didn’t really succeed in convincing the Pharisees that “any cause” (i.e. no cause) divorce was wrong. They didn’t listen to Him. But He did succeed in getting it abolished within the Christian churches. At least for awhile.
 
awesome - i will try to find that book then

do you remember what he concluded about this?

why do some religious leaders do this kind of thing? - put a heavy burden on others and then not lift a finger to help people come out from under the burden?

i had a conversation with someone recently about those who rise to power in corporations and politics etc

we were discussing how good people normally don't want positions of power and often decline the opportunity when offered to them

this means that people with ulterior selfish motives are often the only ones to accept and even pursue positions of power

good people need to see power positions as an opportunity to help people and declining such positions as a failure to protect people from the unscrupulous power hungry people

iow as distasteful as it is to accept a position of power good people need to take those positions when offered to them

i took a position of power once with an organization - it was offered to me because i was so happy positive and helpful - while in power i learned the higher echelons were corrupt - i foolishly started asking them questions about their treatment of the people under their power - in the end they concocted false and unproven allegations against me and removed me from power - actually i guess that happened to me at least 3 times with 3 different organizations - so perhaps that is one reason why good people don't want positions of power - but still we need good people to take positions of power for the good of us all - and if we find ourselves in a corrupt organization i guess we need to quietly and safely leave rather than confront corrupt higher echelon people regarding their corrupt behavior -

in all 3 situations i stayed rather than leave because i was hoping things would change - but in all 3 cases i was falsely accused as a legal means to remove me - no harm came to me because the false accusations could not be proven - but interesting that to cover their own corruption they tried to smear my integrity - thank God for His protection and vindication
Power doesn't corrupt...power attracts the corruptible.
And navigation while surrounded by the corrupt isn't exactly easy for everyone. It can be done but I can truly understand how it feels like you can't.
Part of the game of leadership.

And there's a reason to take the reins of leadership...it's because otherwise evil will. I've effected the tone of jobs more so than others regularly. I've always had a target on my back. Especially if I make others look bad by comparison. I've been reprimanded (without any conviction) by superiors for doing exactly what I was supposed to do. And walked out of those meetings with them understanding that I wasn't going to change a thing... and they were fine with that.
It's all in handling the situation appropriately...and it's never easy. It never can be done with heavy emotions... and that's the truly difficult part. The attacks are aimed at you personally and with intent to get you emotional. And if you fall for it emotionally... you lost even if you are righteous.
I remember the lady who said she had video of me using racist slurs about someone I had chastised and was going to the big boss to start a lawsuit over me. I asked to see it because I wanted to see the quality of the video editing. She then told everyone she had it...but no one ever saw the video. She thought she had me. I would get upset and cower and bluster and foam at the mouth. But I didn't. And that frustrated her even more. Others who thought it might be true came to me and asked about it...I told them to watch her video. (She didn't have one). And get back to me.
I heard nothing more about it.
Of course it wasn't true. I'm not racist nor do I say racist things. If anything I'm exactly the opposite.
When in leadership I have a job. I hand out assignments based on the skills of the crew. Not anything else matters but getting the job completed. Speed isn't relevant except if you are blatantly goofing off. I really don't care who or what a crew person is... the only thing that matters is production. It doesn't have to be the fastest but it has to be done right. Everyone wins when it's done right the first time instead of really fast the third time.
And it upsets people...a lot more than you would ever think.
 
You nailed it already. HYPOCRISY!
There’s a chapter one it. But all the “scandals” Jesus addresses to the religious leaders of His day were/are related to hypocrisy and hard-heartedness. He didn’t just call them hypocrites, He showed them how they were. Including in their so-called “any cause” divorce policy. God ‘allows’ divorce because of hard-heartedness and His Torah reflects that. But it’s not the ideal.

Which relates, I think (know actually if you study what Jesus actually taught about Torah within their culture, not our perception of it), to what you’re saying about following Torah today (Jew or Gentile). And especially trying to follow someone else’s ‘interpretations’ thereof. Torah was (always was, always will be) a practical solution to the real problem (a heart problem). I can show you several specific examples but it’s better if you discover them in Jesus’s teaching yourself really. Look at His healing on the Sabbath, for example, and their reaction. Jesus didn’t give a hoot about their accusations of ‘working’ on the Sabbath. He cared about people!

The book is simply a resource that would help with that (culture) I think.

The man’s basically read every scrap of 1-2 Century Jewish writings archeologists have ever discovered (religous and otherwise) so he’s an expert on their culture (I am not). Frankly, even more so than most modern Jews are today. So what the book does is put a lot of Jesus’s teaching into THEIR perspective/culture, not ours. Mine especially. I assume you are Jewish. But keep in mind, you’re not 1st Century Jewish.


Man, you are spot on!
I so wish more Christians would pursue political positions. Every one I know personally that does, I give them thanks for their willingness (gumption frankly) serving in their capacity. Even some I probably disagree with politically. Most are floored as they seem to have never heard “thanks” before. They just get gripped at, day after day after day.



I don’t know that I’d agree with that. But every life situation is different (and challenging). Take the “any cause” divorce situation/corruption of His day. Jesus wasn’t quite about it. I meant to point out previously, by the way, He didn’t really succeed in convincing the Pharisees that “any cause” (i.e. no cause) divorce was wrong. They didn’t listen to Him. But He did succeed in getting it abolished within the Christian churches. At least for awhile.
thanks for the info - it does sound like an excellent book based on good sources

you know every corrupt organization i was given a position of power in covered their corruption so that those NOT in power could not see it
 
And navigation while surrounded by the corrupt isn't exactly easy for everyone. It can be done but I can truly understand how it feels like you can't.
Part of the game of leadership.
you mean it is like a chess game trying to navigate around corrupt people in a corrupt organization?

if that is what you are saying i agree - it is also troubling to the soul to watch corruption in action and how many innocent people get hurt by corrupt organizations who pretend to be good organizations
 
And there's a reason to take the reins of leadership...it's because otherwise evil will. I've effected the tone of jobs more so than others regularly. I've always had a target on my back. Especially if I make others look bad by comparison. I've been reprimanded (without any conviction) by superiors for doing exactly what I was supposed to do. And walked out of those meetings with them understanding that I wasn't going to change a thing... and they were fine with that.
wow - that is inspiring - you must have done something differently than i did - perhaps you were more direct and confrontational than i was - i would like to learn what you did
 
Power doesn't corrupt...power attracts the corruptible.
And navigation while surrounded by the corrupt isn't exactly easy for everyone. It can be done but I can truly understand how it feels like you can't.
Part of the game of leadership.

And there's a reason to take the reins of leadership...it's because otherwise evil will. I've effected the tone of jobs more so than others regularly. I've always had a target on my back. Especially if I make others look bad by comparison. I've been reprimanded (without any conviction) by superiors for doing exactly what I was supposed to do. And walked out of those meetings with them understanding that I wasn't going to change a thing... and they were fine with that.
It's all in handling the situation appropriately...and it's never easy. It never can be done with heavy emotions... and that's the truly difficult part. The attacks are aimed at you personally and with intent to get you emotional. And if you fall for it emotionally... you lost even if you are righteous.
I remember the lady who said she had video of me using racist slurs about someone I had chastised and was going to the big boss to start a lawsuit over me. I asked to see it because I wanted to see the quality of the video editing. She then told everyone she had it...but no one ever saw the video. She thought she had me. I would get upset and cower and bluster and foam at the mouth. But I didn't. And that frustrated her even more. Others who thought it might be true came to me and asked about it...I told them to watch her video. (She didn't have one). And get back to me.
I heard nothing more about it.
Of course it wasn't true. I'm not racist nor do I say racist things. If anything I'm exactly the opposite.
When in leadership I have a job. I hand out assignments based on the skills of the crew. Not anything else matters but getting the job completed. Speed isn't relevant except if you are blatantly goofing off. I really don't care who or what a crew person is... the only thing that matters is production. It doesn't have to be the fastest but it has to be done right. Everyone wins when it's done right the first time instead of really fast the third time.
And it upsets people...a lot more than you would ever think.
wow - awesome post - thanks for sharing - very inspiring - very solid
 
I’ve enjoyed our conversation on this topic and indeed learned some things from it. Thanks for your interaction and answering my questions.

I’d recommend a scholar of Jewish Traditions (in Jesus’s day): Dr. David Instone-Brewer. The following is a more scholarly (and the price reflects it ☹️) work on the Feasts and Sabbaths. I picked this volume up used somewhere (I forget) and have enjoyed it.

Traditions of the Rabbis from the Era of the New Testament: Feasts and Sabbaths: Passover and Atonement v. 2A by David Instone-Brewer (2007-11-01) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K0Q080U/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_PkknCbRKC4FJC

You might google him as at one point much of his work (drafts of what got published) was available for free on a website. The link I had seems to be down now though.

He’s also published a quick little read (more affordable, $5 used) that is quite interesting (and witty at times, in a British way):

The Jesus Scandals: Why He Shocked His Contemporaries (and Still Shocks Today) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0857210238/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_TvknCb87C9NYF

Until reading some of DIB’s work, I thought all of Jesus’s parables were original to Him (and some probably are). But several of the parables He taught from predate His 1st Century birth (not surprising really when you think about it). Jesus emphasized the 1st Century’s Rabbis errors of Biblical interpretation more than I ever realized before.

Anyway, to summarize, I could probably nit-pick a lot of what you’ve said about the application of Torah to a NT Christian (especially a Gentile one) but most all of my ‘nits’ are simply semantic (“should” vs “can” vs “must”) or my misunderstanding you to begin with. As you probably have with me and with what I’ve tried to point out. Take care.

Selah
I'm going to check this out. If you enjoyed his writings on parables (Mashal), you would really like Stories with Intent by Snodgrass. I highly recommend it.
 
so i wonder what did i accomplish?
1. You spoke the truth in love. You followed God’s instructions. He likes that.
2. You showed integrity to others.
3. You’re sharing wisdom gained by your experience with others.
4. ...
i learned a lot about them by being on the inside

And we know that all things are working-together for good for the ones loving God, the ones being called ones according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 8:28&version=DLNT

it was worth a lot of money to them to hide the fact they were corrupt
That book addresses this issue as well.

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry and began to pluck heads [of grain] and eat. And the Pharisees, having seen it, said to Him, “Behold— Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to be doing on a Sabbath”.
Matthew 12:1-2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 12:1-2&version=DLNT

Actually, no He wasn’t doing what was not lawful according to God’s law. Mishnah maybe, but not Torah. The ‘laws’ of the 1st Century Jews had morphed into a fat-cat High Priests society through various absurdity in the long list of agricultural laws (taxes). Mostly meant to line the pockets of those in power.
 
I'm going to check this out. If you enjoyed his writings on parables (Mashal), you would really like Stories with Intent by Snodgrass. I highly recommend it.
I will. $32 hardcover or kindle. I’ve never seen a Kindle book cost so much ☹️

I like digital, print and audio books with each having some pros/cons. Would you say the ability to electronically search for words/phrases might be useful after reading it? (Which is the biggest advantage of electronic books to me). Otherwise, I’ll just go hardcover and highlighter.
 
I will. $32 hardcover or kindle. I’ve never seen a Kindle book cost so much ☹️

I like digital, print and audio books with each having some pros/cons. Would you say the ability to electronically search for words/phrases might be useful after reading it? (Which is the biggest advantage of electronic books to me). Otherwise, I’ll just go hardcover and highlighter.
Personally, I like books. He lays the parables out by category and each is easy to locate.
I have Augustine in electronic format because he rambles and it's hard to remember where he said what. But personally, the way I read, I prefer real paper. It's really up to you and how you foresee using it. If you wanted to teach the parables online, electronic copy would be the way.

Snodgrass displays a comprehensive exegetical approach to the parables with a summary of the primary intent behind each of Jesus stories. It's over 500 pages and is near exhaustive while pulling from the various exegetical disciplenes. I've never followed up on all of his resources that he footnotes and honestly, I couldn't fathom it.

BTW, I can't see myself highlighting any of my books lol. It just seems wrong to me.
 
1. You spoke the truth in love. You followed God’s instructions. He likes that.
2. You showed integrity to others.
3. You’re sharing wisdom gained by your experience with others.
4. ...


And we know that all things are working-together for good for the ones loving God, the ones being called ones according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 8:28&version=DLNT


That book addresses this issue as well.

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry and began to pluck heads [of grain] and eat. And the Pharisees, having seen it, said to Him, “Behold— Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to be doing on a Sabbath”.
Matthew 12:1-2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 12:1-2&version=DLNT

Actually, no He wasn’t doing what was not lawful according to God’s law. Mishnah maybe, but not Torah. The ‘laws’ of the 1st Century Jews had morphed into a fat-cat High Priests society through various absurdity in the long list of agricultural laws (taxes). Mostly meant to line the pockets of those in power.
yes

thanks for the encouragement on sticking it out in corrupt organizations
 
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