A person who is once sanctified can return to commiting sin.
What does this question have to do with Jesus paying the price for our sin on the cross?
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Is man not really capable of seeking God?
- Thread starter Walpole
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A person who is once sanctified can return to commiting sin.
What does this question have to do with Jesus paying the price for our sin on the cross?
To answer the OP,
To answer OP, check out John 6:44 and John 12:32.
Jesus tells the disciples to not bother with the weeds because pulling them out will damage the crop, but wait till judgement.
The chocking Jesus talks about is the sin within each believer if they stay corrupted by the world and follow its ways.
It is this that is the problem to be avoided.
God bless you
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
I can't speak for brightfame52 .. and I don't want you to weaponize anything I say to another general indictment about reformed theology and how horrible because you don't agree/understand something. So, just staying to the question at hand ....
...... we are getting into the question of "what is eternity" and "God (I am) is eternal". We have a clue what that means, but to some degree we cannot understand it. We think of eternity as unlimited time going backwards and forwards but this is not accurate for, if eternity went backwards infinitely we would never get to NOW.
(Aside: Sometimes people use the word "eternity" as in we will live for eternity and this is a different sense of the word)
Anyways, not sure how deep you want to go, there is a lot of interesting stuff and how being eternal correlates with being immutable (for if something had a beginning then it was created and if something is created it is mutable, etc ... )
but one aspect of being eternal is "God has no succession of moments". God has no beginning, end (Job 36:26), or "succession of moments" in His own being, and He sees all time equally vividly, yet God sees events in time and acts in time. Time does not limit God; time has no effect on God’s knowledge, He cannot learn or forget for that means a change in His perfect knowledge. To God himself, all of his existence is always somehow “present” as He is in all moments of time; He is the cause of time. (Hebrews 11:3).
So, back to the question of "how we are predestined to be saved from the beginning of time." I'll take a stab at the part in blue first. God creates time. Anything that is created is not eternal as it has a beginning. Physics confirms this as it tells us that matter and time and space must all occur together: if there is no matter, there can be no space or time either. So, assuming you are still with my meanderings, what do we have:
Premise 1: God is eternal
Premise 2: Time is not eternal, it has a beginning
Premise 3: God created time
Premise 4: God is all knowing
Premise 5: God is immutable
Conclusion 1: God is said to have "no succession of moments" because he is outside of time having himself created time. Eternity and time are not the same
Conclusion 2: God must know who would be saved from the beginning of time because he existed before time and his knowledge does not change.
O.K. ... that is my answer for the part of the question in blue, now for how we are predestined
Aside: Predestined means salvation that is planned before it happens in time
Premise 1: Before time NOTHING (no thing) existed except God in 3 persons
Premise 2: the Law of Cause and Effect states every Effect has a Cause. This law is true by definition
Premise 3: Being "saved" is an effect (something/someone caused it)
Premise 4: God is immutable and thus his knowledge does not change
Premise 5: ex nihilo nihil fit ... nothing comes from nothing. Nothing is not a thing.
Conclusion: Since God always (eternally and immutably) knew who would be saved and since He knew this before anything existed and since nothing else exists eternally there is but one cause of everything. God knows what will immutably happen in time and that cause can only be God because at one "time so to speak" only God existed. So God must be the cause of all He knows. Thus, we have God as the Cause of everything and knowing everything and thus we answer the question how we are predestined
(Aside: I don't want to explain how God is not the cause of evil so don't go off on that tangent ..... the above is a big enough mouthful. )
The first statement should be "before" the beginning of time and not "from" the beginning of time. Technically, "before the beginning of time" is a contradiction as "before" is an element of time. But since Eternality is outside of time I use the term "before" anthropomorphicly'
The second statement is misleading. We do not "receive" faith. We are given cause (regeneration) to believe (have faith). Before regeneration our sin nature causes NONE TO SEEK GOD. This answers the third question, "WHY would they ever need to be regenerated?", because regeneration is the cause for our believing.
Not sure I understand ... but in the context of the previous questions .... God has no succession of moments (a difficult concept as being eternal is difficult to understand) so in God's mind we are His adopted children eternally. To accommodate our minds (we learn, we see things in time, we are mutable) God adapts to our understanding and operates in time though He transcends time. (Aside: God is transcendent so any explanation of his transcendent attributes will come up short in some respect)
This is a false premise.
The official reform view point is that babies go to heaven (it's in the confession of faith I read and I can find it if you insist your premise is correct. ). Candid people will say that scripture is not clear. But where ever babies go, God is the one that decides and not the 'free will' of babies, I think even Arminians agree to this.
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
I believe Psalm 51:5 ... I have not commented on the question above. I have only commented on the statement that babies are born innocent. To this Psalm 51:5 should be a clear answer.
This is false. Post #301 JLB states: "However, little children who know neither good nor evil are innocent, until they commit sin."
Agreed ... no idea why this is relevant
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
LOL ... you keep changing the phrasing.
Post #301 you said "However, little children who know neither good nor evil are innocent, until they commit sin."
I believe an innocent body does not contain evil. Could Christ, who is innocent, possibly be considered to be conceived in sin, I think not. Why the heck do you think Christ was born of a virgin by the Spirit .... to AVOID being conceived in sin, so He would be innocent.
Again, I never used the term "committing" sin. That's your insertion to side track the discussion or you have a communication issue.
Do you believe a 6 month old child is capable of committing sin? If so, what sin is it that they commit?
Because the male bloodline is tainted with sin.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12
Every person will die a physical death (excluding those raptured), because of sin in the physical body.
This does not mean a child of six month old is capable of committing sin.
Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3
- unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
What scripture contains the phrase immaculate conception?
JLB
Last edited:
I have an idea, why dont you start a new thread about the eternal aspect of salvation.
Rom 5:12 seems clear to me that all men sinned in Adam when he sinned Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
It was when Adam sinned, death was passed upon all men !
[ACMP=reminder]
Let's be slow to read and understand what another is saying as we will always unfortunately disagree in certain areas of understanding as we are ever learning. Misquoting's others happens when we are to quick to not thoroughly read and understand what another replies with as we are to quick to show others where they have errored, but can not accept our own error. Let each one come to there own understanding as we discuss the scriptures and never put another down for what they believe to be truth to them.
[/ACMP]
Let's be slow to read and understand what another is saying as we will always unfortunately disagree in certain areas of understanding as we are ever learning. Misquoting's others happens when we are to quick to not thoroughly read and understand what another replies with as we are to quick to show others where they have errored, but can not accept our own error. Let each one come to there own understanding as we discuss the scriptures and never put another down for what they believe to be truth to them.
[/ACMP]
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Why the heck do you think Christ was born of a virgin by the Spirit .
Did God use Mary's egg or just her womb?
If God used Mary's egg as I assume your statement implies, there must be some sort of filtration going on such that the egg has nothing in it that would result in Adam sin being transferred to the infant. Might contradict Job 14:4 and Matt. 7:17-18 .. but might be stretching the meaning of those verses.
Anyways, my guess is God didn't use Mary's egg, but I don't know ... interesting. Thanks for your answer.
Aside: If you want to start a new thread about when babies/children are capable of sinning, have at it. Our discussion is about your post #290,#300 where you assert little children are innocent.
Now this is interesting. Lots of questions without answers.
Did God use Mary's egg or just her womb?
If God used Mary's egg as I assume your statement implies, there must be some sort of filtration going on such that the egg has nothing in it that would result in Adam sin being transferred to the infant. Might contradict Job 14:4 and Matt. 7:17-18 .. but might be stretching the meaning of those verses.
Anyways, my guess is God didn't use Mary's egg, but I don't know ... interesting. Thanks for your answer.
Again, you keep changing the subject. Your original post #290,#300 said the little children are innocent. That is the crux of my subsequent comments. I say they are not innocent per Psalm 51:5 and you have given no counter argument (not that you are obligated to, but that's where we are in the discussion)
Aside: If you want to start a new thread about when babies/children are capable of sinning, have at it. Our discussion is about your post #290,#300 where you assert little children are innocent.
God does not select before the womb who will spend eternity with Him or those who will spend eternity in the lake of fire. God is a sovereign God that in his love and patience for us would not want anyone to perish and only God knows the intents of the heart as he alone judges us, 2 Peter 3:9. God wants all of us to come to repentance, but not everyone will for the way they are raised from birth. Many babies are born into families that have rejected God and will be raised to also come against Him as their hearts are hardened.
Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. A baby can not be covered by the blood of Jesus until they come into the knowledge of good and evil and accept Him as Lord and Savior. Many use Ephesians 1:4, 5 to support this, but that is not what these verses are saying. These two verses are very similar to that of 2 Peter 3:9 that through Gods love he breathed his breath (spirit) into us when we first came from the womb making us a living soul and that he would want us to be holy and without blame. Staying holy without blame is through repentance and acceptance that brings us to that adoption that is in Christ Jesus thus we were made for Gods good pleasure.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Zechariah 12:1 the burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
A baby can not inherit the sin of the parents, but are born with a sin nature. Adam’s sin was his own sin, not our sin, but through his sin, sin now entered into the world, Romans 5:12 and was imputed to every one of us as there is none that are righteous, babies included, Romans 5:12-18. Psalms 58:3 says, The wicked are estranged (turn from God) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Who taught a child to lie or be rebellious against their parents? It's that sin nature that causes a child to do this. Psalms 51:5 says, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The only thing God gave us at birth was His very breath (spirit) that made us a living soul and it's that breath that goes back to God when we die as he preserves it in judgment until the coming of the Lord, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. A baby can not be covered by the blood of Jesus until they come into the knowledge of good and evil and accept Him as Lord and Savior. Many use Ephesians 1:4, 5 to support this, but that is not what these verses are saying. These two verses are very similar to that of 2 Peter 3:9 that through Gods love he breathed his breath (spirit) into us when we first came from the womb making us a living soul and that he would want us to be holy and without blame. Staying holy without blame is through repentance and acceptance that brings us to that adoption that is in Christ Jesus thus we were made for Gods good pleasure.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Zechariah 12:1 the burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
A baby can not inherit the sin of the parents, but are born with a sin nature. Adam’s sin was his own sin, not our sin, but through his sin, sin now entered into the world, Romans 5:12 and was imputed to every one of us as there is none that are righteous, babies included, Romans 5:12-18. Psalms 58:3 says, The wicked are estranged (turn from God) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Who taught a child to lie or be rebellious against their parents? It's that sin nature that causes a child to do this. Psalms 51:5 says, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. The only thing God gave us at birth was His very breath (spirit) that made us a living soul and it's that breath that goes back to God when we die as he preserves it in judgment until the coming of the Lord, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Man is capable of seeking God, but many refuse to believe there even is one.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
I ageee.
You have failed to answer a simple question about a 6 month old child being able to commit a sin.
Why
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
This is interesting. If we assume the statement is correct then are you saying a fetus before birth has no soul or a dead soul (whatever that is). What are the consequences of this? Do aborted babies just go back to dust (not to heaven or hell).
Psalm 51:5 speaks of being in sin from conception. At conception do we have a no soul and if so, where does the sin reside at conception. Hmmmm, sounds like Deut. 29:29 stuff to me. (aside: this is above my pay level ... lol)
Aside: I've read where there are two theories as to where our soul comes from, parents or God and supposedly both theories have flaws ... not a critical issue anyways
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
I responded indirectly several times. I don't want to go on a tangent. You posted in #296/#300 that little children are innocent. This is the subject at hand. Whether and when children commit sin is not essential to proving the statement that little children are innocent because Psalm 51:5 says we are conceived in sin. To have sin is proof that little children not innocent. No further proof like a 6 month old committing sin or not committing sin is necessary.
If the subject of whether or not a 6 month baby can commit sin interests you, open up a thread and if the subject interests me I may give an opinion.
A fetus can not breath on its own while in the womb by inhaling air/oxygen the way they do after delivery. Oxygen travels through the mothers lungs, heart, vasculature, uterus and placenta making its way through the umbilical cord and into the fetus that keeps them alive in the womb. According to John 3:13 no one other than Jesus has ever ascended up to heaven. I hate to even think what they do with aborted fetus as I can only assume it goes to hazardous trash, but anything that dies turns back to the dust of the ground.
Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
James 2:26 for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul, as the breath, goes back to God who gave it. 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
James 2:26 for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul, as the breath, goes back to God who gave it. 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.
My point is, we are born in sin; a body that contains sin.
This come from our father's bloodline.
However little children who do not know good from evil, are innocent.
My question is designed to get you to see the point Im making.
Whether you agree or not is up to you.
A 6 month old little child does not commit sin, nor do they even conceive of the concept of sin.
Please cease from labeling me with an unbiblical term as immaculent conception, claiming I believe all people are born in immaculent conception, a term not found in the scriptures.
Last warning.
JLB