"At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women"

Debbie · Jun 29, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

I am not surprised. But then again I work with parents with small children so they are a fairly young crowd and tattoos are common. It is just part of our society now. I personally do not want one but that is for several reasons. Health concerns, the way they look as your skin ages, health concerns, the history, and Lev. 19:28. This is for me. I have no problem with what another does. Some of the most devout people I know have tattoos-young and older.

When I hear or participate in conversations like this I think of my parents and the conversations we had in the 60's and 70's about men with long hair and women wearing pants. To them this was rebellion against God and society. To some tattoos are the same. Over time, and as any behavior is accepted by our society, we no longer see a problem with it. It is only when a behavior is in rebellion to God that it is wrong and that is something only God and the person with the behavior knows for sure. Unless the behavior is directly in opposition to the word of God (like the commandments and the teachings of Christ) it is open. Like Paul the apostle said - All things are lawful but not all things are expedient nor do they edify. (1 Cor 10:23 my paraphrase)

farouk · Jun 29, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Debbie said:
I am not surprised. But then again I work with parents with small children so they are a fairly young crowd and tattoos are common. It is just part of our society now. I personally do not want one but that is for several reasons. Health concerns, the way they look as your skin ages, health concerns, the history, and Lev. 19:28. This is for me. I have no problem with what another does. Some of the most devout people I know have tattoos-young and older.

When I hear or participate in conversations like this I think of my parents and the conversations we had in the 60's and 70's about men with long hair and women wearing pants. To them this was rebellion against God and society. To some tattoos are the same. Over time, and as any behavior is accepted by our society, we no longer see a problem with it. It is only when a behavior is in rebellion to God that it is wrong and that is something only God and the person with the behavior knows for sure. Unless the behavior is directly in opposition to the word of God (like the commandments and the teachings of Christ) it is open. Like Paul the apostle said - All things are lawful but not all things are expedient nor do they edify. (1 Cor 10:23 my paraphrase)

Debbie,

Thanks a lot for your comments; you raise some interesting issues, from hypothetical perspectives.

You mention health concerns and in the days of unsupervised back alley establishments this may have been more of an issue; these days, however, tattooists positively welcome regulation (and I even read an article where a client felt tattooists actually care for their users' health more than some doctors! — in the light of those who refuse to take on new patients, because of money issues, etc.; a moot point, though.) These days, too, the quality of inks, which used to be problematic sometimes, has increased greatly. I think that if people are relying on impressions of the tattoo parlor scene from 30 - 40 years ago, then they might have been accurate then, but they certainly would not be accurate now.

You referred also to Lev. 28; it's interesting that the same passage also mentions men not trimming the corners of their beards; it's rather hard for a preacher who shaves to use this verse in relation to the modern practice of tattoos; the ancient context of 'for the dead', pagan funeral rites, etc., is also mentioned in the passage. I wonder if the context of the passage relates more directly to Old Testament Jews in the land under the law. (There is also the passage in Romans 14 that speaks of Christian liberty for those who are under grace.) No one should feel somehow under pressure about a tattoo, is another important point. But in any case, if someone today STILL has conscientious problems, despite the contextual aspects of this passage Lev. 28 passage, then one needs to respect them, certainly.

Having it done is very widespread, anyway; as you rightly say: "It is just part of our society now." And many Christians too find that a discreet, faith related tattoo can work wonders with conversations with people, who otherwise might not be nearly as receptive to conversation-starters that they might find unfamiliar and threatening. You said: "Some of the most devout people I know have tattoos-young and older." You are absolutely right; many Godly people choose to do it.

Another thing, which you maybe didn't mention: some people find pretty well ALL tattoos bordering on the distasteful to the ugly: Christians in this category are unlikely to be motivated by them, as a consequence.

But many other Christians genuinely recognize artistic merit in tattoos, quite apart from the very useful testimony aspect of a Bible ref. tattoo, or whatever.

You mentioned also about the appearance of tattoos changing as the person gets older; what a lot of people don't realize, or if they do, they do little about it, is that after several years a tattoo can sometimes benefit from touching up with a little more judiciously placed ink; a tattooist can often give very helpful advice here.

Your final point is certainly very true: some tattoos don't edify.

The opposite is also true: some tattoos with conversation-friendly content certainly do edify.

My two cents'. (If any of it makes some sort of sense?) Ty again for what you said.

Blessings.

jasoncran · Jun 29, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

farouk said:
jason:

Yes, what you say about the tattoo artist profession is perfectly valid.

In fact, it's relevant to piercers as well as tattooists. As we know. (If I had not written the OP I might not even have taken it upon myself to mention the locker room.)

My suggestion for this thread would be, however, if we are going to end up naming hidden male or female body parts, and I don't deny that can be a valid discussion, that we do so in the locker room.

Christian parents of any of the teens who are looking forward, in the years ahead, to their rite of passage day at the parlor when 18 arrives (it's almost the first place they go when the big day arrives) need to have confidence that the sort of thing their teen might read on this thread reflects what they would reasonably expect about the usual, visible placements. Call me reactionary; prudish; whatever, then fine; I think mods would probably agree that if Christian parents want a discussion about named hidden body parts, then the parent of the teen can take him or her to the locker room together. For me I'll readily agree it's awkward but it's also sensible, I think.

You make some valid observations, though.

Blessings.

PS: You're also right about people wanting to pursue a career in tattoo parlors needing to be able to face certain situations professionally, if one has to be in close physical proximity with a client/patient; this also would apply more widely to the medical and nursing fields.

Blessing.

parents take teens to be pierced these days. seen it with a christian buddy of mine.

farouk · Jun 29, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

jasoncran said:
parents take teens to be pierced these days. seen it with a christian buddy of mine.

jasoncran:

Well, okay; ears and eyebrows, etc. Valid topic, too, as well as tatts.

Blessings.

westtexas · Jun 29, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

farouk said:
jasoncran:

Well, okay; ears and eyebrows, etc. Valid topic, too, as well as tatts.

Blessings.

Anybody like all those face piercings? Earrings don't bother me (even 3 or 4 of them) but I never have liked all the face piercings.
if I got you off topic farouk-just pull out the machine gun-:fullauto

edited to add: except for them big giant coke bottle cap ear stretchers-them are ugly too!!!

farouk · Jun 29, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

westtexas said:
Anybody like all those face piercings? Earrings don't bother me (even 3 or 4 of them) but I never have liked all the face piercings.
if I got you off topic farouk-just pull out the machine gun-:fullauto

edited to add: except for them big giant coke bottle cap ear stretchers-them are ugly too!!!

westtexas: I was just saying to jason, who raised the subject of piercings only, that they are a valid theme too, though maybe not this thread's theme.

On a previous post, I appreciate that you said that in church you like to wear long sleeves over your arm tattoos. I guess your attitude is for men and women, Go for the tatts if you wish, but know when to cover them sometimes, right?

Blessings,

Jethro Bodine · Jun 30, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

farouk said:
 Jethro:

You might be interested in this quote from an article I read; I think youâ€™ve mentioned the matter of older people in relation to the subject:

Article by Laura Stampler in the Huffington Post â€œMany Women Get Tattoos post-50 â€” and Donâ€™t Regret It Laterâ€
Gallo-Kohlas, (of Requiem Body Art in Spring Hill, Fla.) told The Huffington Post. â€™ "We see a lot of women in their sixties and seventies getting their first tattoos." Gallo-Kohlas recalls a woman in her sixties who got a tattoo because everyone in the golf clique at her gated community had one. It seemed like the thing to do in order to fit in.â€™ (Emph. added)

It is utterly beyond my comprehension why a mature, genuinely born again, Christian woman over sixty would get a tattoo. I'm betting most would not do that.

Call me old fashioned, but I'm not ready to see Grandma show up at Thanksgiving dinner with her favorite sweet potato dish sporting a fresh tattoo. :shame

...let alone show up that way to teach her next children's Sunday school class. It would make me wonder what the heck is going on inside of that head. Some things are understandable...some these are simply beyond understanding.

By the way, my brother lives in Spring Hill. Another brother lives in Brookesville just east of there. Still another brother lives in Hudson just south of there. And I used to live right by him there in Hudson. Maybe you've heard of the Christian nudist camp that was going to be built there. Well, that was right behind the subdivision I used to live in there. Thankfully, it never materialized.

handy · Jun 30, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

It is utterly beyond my comprehension why a mature, genuinely born again, Christian woman over sixty would get a tattoo.

It could be Jethro that this is because you seem (based upon your views you've expressed here) that you have linked tattoos with sexuality in your mind in such a way that you can't see that not all tattoos have sexual overtones.

Most people don't automatically and without exception view all tattoos on women as sexual.

Now, I agree 100% with you, that mature Christian women should never walk around dressed or adorned in a sexually provocative way.

If Grandma showed up with the sweet potato casserole wearing a spaghetti string camisole instead of a blouse, or teaching Sunday School wearing a T-Shirt emblazoned with "I'm a Hot Grandma and I'm Flashin'" (I actually saw one in a store once, thankfully on the rack not on a Grandmother.)... then yes, one would have cause to take her aside in loving rebuke and help her re-examine her confession..

Same if she goes out and gets a tramp stamp and starts wearing low rider pants and thongs just to show it off...

But, just as Grandma can wear a nice blouse to serve up the gravy and it not be sexual, so can she have a butterfly on her calf... neither is sexual.

Jethro Bodine · Jun 30, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

handy said:
But, just as Grandma can wear a nice blouse to serve up the gravy and it not be sexual, so can she have a butterfly on her calf... neither is sexual.

Actually, I wasn't thinking of it in the vein of it being sexual. Come on, we're talking about a 60 year old grandma here, for corn's sake!

I was thinking of it in regard to worldliness. It's a red flag for me...and I'm entitled to be on my guard as far as what I consider to be a red flag in another believer's life. I'm not entitled to condemn (I have no way of knowing what her true motivation is), but I am entitled to a little cautiousness as I see fit.

handy · Jun 30, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Why do you "need to be cautious" about the actions of another. What is cautiousness about?

Now, we all need to be cautious about our own actions... anything not done of faith is sin... but I'm not understanding the need of one person to be cautious about the actions of another.

farouk · Jun 30, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

farouk said:
jason:

Those placements would seem to be particularly suitable for them, yes...

PS jason:

Also, re. your Q., I guess a very relevant aspect is that in the warmer weather arms and (lower?) legs are often open to the air, and it's hardly a thing to regard as strange on a warm, summer's day.

So it's not surprising if tattoos in these placements are chosen.

This kind of ties in a bit with handy's point about tattoos in certain placements being quite decent.

(Ty also for the visitor message.)

Jethro Bodine · Jul 1, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

handy said:
Why do you "need to be cautious" about the actions of another. What is cautiousness about?

Now, we all need to be cautious about our own actions... anything not done of faith is sin... but I'm not understanding the need of one person to be cautious about the actions of another.

It's in the same vein as Jesus telling us to treat someone as a pagan or a tax collector. The point being, we really are to make judgments about what other people do and regard them one way or another accordingly. If not in regard to out right sin, then in regard to worldliness.

Worldliness is probably the most damaging and pervasive influence in the church. It creeps in under the guise of not being an easily identifiable and undebatable sin, and gets protected by the 'thou shalt not judge' argument. That's what gives it it's immunity to operate freely in the church and draw others into that worldliness.

15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world." (1 John 2:15-16)

farouk · Jul 1, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Jethro Bodine said:
It's in the same vein as Jesus telling us to treat someone as a pagan or a tax collector. The point being, we really are to make judgments about what other people do and regard them one way or another accordingly. If not in regard to out right sin, then in regard to worldliness.

Worldliness is probably the most damaging and pervasive influence in the church. It creeps in under the guise of not being an easily identifiable and undebatable sin, and gets protected by the 'thou shalt not judge' argument. That's what gives it it's immunity to operate freely in the church and draw others into that worldliness.

15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For everything in the worldâ€”the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and doesâ€”comes not from the Father but from the world." (1 John 2:15-16)

Jethro:

Those are great, searching verses and for years I have been challenged by them. (I love John's Epistles.)

At the same time, I would find it somewhat of a stretch for anyone to claim that, e.g., a modest, Bible ref. design on a wrist, obtained with its witness conversation potential in mind, should only be dismissed, in case someone thought it was not spiritual enough or supposedly denoting something bad.

Blessings.

OK_Shane · Jul 1, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

I had tats before I became a true follower of Christ. I have some bad decisions marked on my body, I want to cover them and I will...but in the mean time, I think of how they impact my ministering to the youth and therefore cover them with sleeves. I wouldn't doubt some of these middle age folks were in the same boat.

Has anyone taken the time to ask them about them, learn the story of the tats, of the person, of their background? Not saying anyone in this thread does it but how quick are we to judge someone with piercings and ink. Maybe the ink and piercings is your opening to bring that lost person to Christ. Talk to them, love them, do not judge them.

I may have missed it in this thread, but other than the one post about the Torah, what does the Bible say about tats if it says it all...or what verses can be used for or against tats? I'm open to learning scripture.

Jethro Bodine · Jul 1, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

farouk said:
At the same time, I would find it somewhat of a stretch for anyone to claim that, e.g., a modest, Bible ref. design on a wrist, obtained with its witness conversation potential in mind, should only be dismissed, in case someone thought it was not spiritual enough or supposedly denoting something bad.

Tattooing came into the church from the world. And as I say, worldliness insidiously creeps into the body in small, seemingly harmless and innocent ways, under the protection of 'don't judge', until it achieves it's goal of making us that much more indistinguishable from the world.

farouk · Jul 1, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Jethro Bodine said:
Tattooing came into the church from the world. And as I say, worldliness insidiously creeps into the body in small, seemingly harmless and innocent ways, under the protection of 'don't judge', until it achieves it's goal of making us that much more indistinguishable from the world.

Jethro:

In broad terms certainly I would agree with you. But more broadly still, my comment would be that we are living in an imperfect world and God can draw straight lines with what some people might prefer to regard as crooked sticks, but which others might be motivated about as undoubtedly being evangelistically effective in talking to people. (I ask myself, Do I talk to people enough about the Savior?)

Blessings.

Jethro Bodine · Jul 1, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

farouk said:
...my comment would be that we are living in an imperfect world and God can draw straight lines with what some people might prefer to regard as crooked sticks, but which others might be motivated about as undoubtedly being evangelistically effective in talking to people.

Very true. God can use anything to somehow reach lost people. But to purposely choose a crooked stick hoping God will do that????

farouk · Jul 1, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Jethro Bodine said:
Very true. God can use anything to somehow reach lost people. But to purposely choose a crooked stick hoping God will do that????

Jethro:

Not what I said!

What I did say was: "what some people might prefer to regard as crooked sticks".

Then, as I said, others may feel it is a very useful way of prompting conversations to evangelistic advantage.

I guess it really comes back to what Debbie was saying, above:

Debbie said:
It is just part of our society now..Some of the most devout people I know have tattoos-young and older.

I guess it follows from Debbie's point, that since the practice — often benign — has become established as part of our society, then there are likely to be many Godly people who will be strongly motivated to do it as a means of prompting evangelistic conversations, etc. As a practice it undoubtedly has a lot of potential for faith-related designs.

Blessings.

Brightmorningstar · Jul 2, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

Whilst I woud suggest not to have tatoos, even if they pay tribute to God, as to honour God with our bodies is not really to mark them, if people have tattoos and become believers they cant really get rid of them.

farouk · Jul 2, 2012

Re: "At our church, there are several with tatts, including several middle aged women

mygraine said:
..We are friends with two female tattoo artists and neither of us have been inked in 14 years. I am torn on the subject myself. I have some convictions so I have put it on the back burner. For my wife it seems to come down to the money, she may get more later, as the finances become available.

mygraine:

Sounds like maybe she is keener than you are to become freshly tattooed?

Anyway, like you said earlier,

mygraine said:
..the thought of Christian women with tattoos is just how it is.

As an activity, one can be assured that there is undeniable evidence of a widespread desire and expectation among Christian women to participate in it, and it's not usual for already tattooed people who have been converted to want a new design which is maybe faith related.

Blessings.

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