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Chapter V

The last siege of the Jews after Christ.

After Nero had held the government about thirteen years, Galba and Otho reigned about a year and six months. "Vespasian, who had become illustrious in the campaign against the Jews, was then proclaimed sovereign in Judea, receiving the title of emperor from the armies there. Directing his course, therefore, immediately to Rome, he commits the care of the war against the Jews, into the hands of his son Titus; for after the ascension of our Saviour, the Jews, in addition to their wickedness against him, were now incessantly plotting mischief against his apostles. First, they slew Stephen by stoning him, next James the son of Zebedee, and the brother of John, by beheading, and finally James, who first obtained the episcopal seat at Jerusalem, after the ascension of our Saviour, and was slain in the manner before related. But the rest of the apostles who were harassed in innumerable ways, with a view to destroy them [Matthew 23:34-38; Matthew 24:9], and driven from the land of Judea, had gone forth to preach the gospel to all nations, relying upon the aid of Christ, when he said, "Go ye, teach all nations in my name."

The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here, those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles, finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth.

But the number of calamities which then overwhelmed the whole nation; the extreme misery to which particularly the inhabitants of Judea were reduced, the vast numbers of men, with women and children that fell by the sword and famine, and innumerable other forms of death; the numerous and great cities of Judea that were besieged, as also the great and incredible distresses that those experienced who took refuge at Jerusalem, as to a place of perfect security [Matthew 24:21-22, Luke 21:20-24]; these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each particular of its progress, when finally, the abomination of desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which now was approaching its total down-fall and final destruction by fire; all this, I say, any one that wishes may see accurately stated in the history written by Josephus.

It may, however, be necessary to state, in the very words of this writer, how about three hundred thousand that flocked from all parts of Judea at the time of the passover, were shut up in Jerusalem as in a prison. For it was indeed just, that in those very days in which they had inflicted sufferings upon the Saviour and benefactor of all men, the Christ of God, destruction should overtake them, thus shut up as in a prison, as an exhibition of the divine justice. Passing by, then, the particular calamities which befell them, such as they suffered from the sword, and other means employed against them, I may deem it sufficient only to subjoin the calamities they endured from the famine. So that they who peruse the present history, may know in some measure, that the divine vengeance did not long delay to visit them for their iniquity against the Christ of God.

Eusebius Pamphilus, The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus, WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 85-87.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn [Zechariah 12:10-14], and they [the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the land of Judea] will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [Daniel 7:13-14]. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31 (ESV)

Someone please tell me why any view of eschatology that ignores these words, "
Immediately after the tribulation of those days" should be taken seriously. :chin
 
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Futurism preys on the ignorance of "pew sitters." The world needs students of the Word, not parrots of false doctrine.
 
Chapter V

The last siege of the Jews after Christ.

After Nero had held the government about thirteen years, Galba and Otho reigned about a year and six months. "Vespasian, who had become illustrious in the campaign against the Jews, was then proclaimed sovereign in Judea, receiving the title of emperor from the armies there. Directing his course, therefore, immediately to Rome, he commits the care of the war against the Jews, into the hands of his son Titus; for after the ascension of our Saviour, the Jews, in addition to their wickedness against him, were now incessantly plotting mischief against his apostles. First, they slew Stephen by stoning him, next James the son of Zebedee, and the brother of John, by beheading, and finally James, who first obtained the episcopal seat at Jerusalem, after the ascension of our Saviour, and was slain in the manner before related. But the rest of the apostles who were harassed in innumerable ways, with a view to destroy them [Matthew 23:34-38; Matthew 24:9], and driven from the land of Judea, had gone forth to preach the gospel to all nations, relying upon the aid of Christ, when he said, "Go ye, teach all nations in my name."

The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here, those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles, finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth.

But the number of calamities which then overwhelmed the whole nation; the extreme misery to which particularly the inhabitants of Judea were reduced, the vast numbers of men, with women and children that fell by the sword and famine, and innumerable other forms of death; the numerous and great cities of Judea that were besieged, as also the great and incredible distresses that those experienced who took refuge at Jerusalem, as to a place of perfect security [Matthew 24:21-22, Luke 21:20-24]; these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each particular of its progress, when finally, the abomination of desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which now was approaching its total down-fall and final destruction by fire; all this, I say, any one that wishes may see accurately stated in the history written by Josephus.

It may, however, be necessary to state, in the very words of this writer, how about three hundred thousand that flocked from all parts of Judea at the time of the passover, were shut up in Jerusalem as in a prison. For it was indeed just, that in those very days in which they had inflicted sufferings upon the Saviour and benefactor of all men, the Christ of God, destruction should overtake them, thus shut up as in a prison, as an exhibition of the divine justice. Passing by, then, the particular calamities which befell them, such as they suffered from the sword, and other means employed against them, I may deem it sufficient only to subjoin the calamities they endured from the famine. So that they who peruse the present history, may know in some measure, that the divine vengeance did not long delay to visit them for their iniquity against the Christ of God.

Eusebius Pamphilus, The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus, WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 85-87.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn [Zechariah 12:10-14], and they [the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the land of Judea] will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [Daniel 7:13-14]. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31 (ESV)

Someone please tell me why any view of eschatology that ignores these words, "
Immediately after the tribulation of those days" should be taken seriously. :chin

What did Josephus have to say about seeing The Lord return.

It only takes one scripture for preterism to come crashing down as false doctrine and to be clearly seen as "another" gospel.

Every eye shall see Him!

JLB
 
You're looking for written proof of a spiritual event (parousia; His "presence") manifested in the physical destruction of Jerusalem: you can start with Josephus then move on to Tacitus, Tertullian, and Eusebius, to name a few.

His presence was manifest in the actions of Rome, which He used to judge Jerusalem; the same way the Father used Assyria to judge Israel and Babylon to judge Judah.

The fact that you're looking for His physical return simply illustrates how little you understand the workings of God in either the OT or the new.

Ok, let's assume you're correct. Let's say I don't understand the workings of God, and you do. If you're the example of the Christian faith, then it's a sad time indeed. edited

You're going to spend your entire life peddling preterism and your best friend Josephus, totally missing the entire point of being a Christian.
 
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You're going to spend your entire life peddling preterism and your best friend Josephus, totally missing the entire point of being a Christian.
And what's that: denying the truth? :shame

Your tactics - like those of whom you like to "Amen" and "high five" - are to ignore the message and make this about the messenger. You're not fooling anyone.
 
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It only takes one scripture for preterism to come crashing down as false doctrine and to be clearly seen as "another" gospel.

As you have yet to provide one, I'd say preterism is pretty safe.

Every eye shall see Him!

Futurists must rip single sentences and phrases completely out of context in order to support their indefensible doctrine, and the above is a perfect case in point.

The line "every eye shall see him", which futurists play as a "trump card" actually lays waste to their argument! It's a phrase pulled right out of Zechariah 12!

Futurists want you to believe that this phrase refers to "every single eye" of every single human being living at the time when Jesus physically returns at some not-too-distant point in the future, but that's not what the context of this prophecy means!

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they [inhabitants of Jerusalem] will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. "In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. Zechariah 12:10-11 (NASB)

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they [the tribes of the land!!!] shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye [of the land] shall see him, and they which have pierced him [Matthew 26:64], and all the tribes of the land [Zechariah 12:12-14] shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (Darby)

This is a uniquely Jewish prophecy with a uniquely Jewish fulfillment and it was fulfilled in 70 AD!
 
As you have yet to provide one, I'd say preterism is pretty safe.



Futurists must rip single sentences and phrases completely out of context in order to support their indefensible doctrine, and the above is a perfect case in point.

The line "every eye shall see him", which futurists play as a "trump card" actually lays waste to their argument! It's a phrase pulled right out of Zechariah 12!

Futurists want you to believe that this phrase refers to "every single eye" of every single human being living at the time when Jesus physically returns at some not-too-distant point in the future, but that's not what the context of this prophecy means!

"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they [inhabitants of Jerusalem] will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. "In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. Zechariah 12:10-11 (NASB)

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they [the tribes of the land!!!] shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye [of the land] shall see him, and they which have pierced him [Matthew 26:64], and all the tribes of the land [Zechariah 12:12-14] shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (Darby)

This is a uniquely Jewish prophecy with a uniquely Jewish fulfillment and it was fulfilled in 70 AD!


7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

all the tribes of the earth... Every eye will see Him. All the tribes of the earth!

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS AND TO BE ADMIRED AMONG ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE!
a uniquely Jewish fulfillment :shocked!


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 2 Peter 3:10-13


Futurists must rip single sentences and phrases completely out of context :biglol:crazy:shocked!

Preterism, Catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism all the same... False :verysick


JLB
 
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

all the tribes of the earth... Every eye will see Him. All the tribes of the earth!

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS AND TO BE ADMIRED AMONG ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE!
a uniquely Jewish fulfillment :shocked!


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 2 Peter 3:10-13


Futurists must rip single sentences and phrases completely out of context :biglol:crazy:shocked!

Preterism, Catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism all the same... False :verysick


JLB

So R 1;7 must be understood literally but not R 1;3 :):hysterical
 
all the tribes of the earth... Every eye will see Him. All the tribes of the earth!
Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

Greek NASB Number: 1093

Greek Word: γῆ

Transliterated Word: gê
Root: a prim. word;

Definition: the earth, land:--

List of English Words and Number of Times Used
country (2),
earth (165),
earthly (1),
ground (20),
land (46),
soil (16).

"Earth" is a mistranslation, dude, given that Revelation 1:7 is taken directly from Zechariah 12:10-14, and the word used in that passage is "land", as in the "land" of Judah! This is why literal translations properly translate this word "land."

But don't let the facts stand in the way of your false literalist folly.

Preterism, Catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism all the same... False

Like so many of your ilk, incapable of dealing rationally with the deficiencies of your understanding, you lash out and call those with a better understanding of this material "wrong."

Whatever. I think anybody without a doctrinal dog in this hunt can see which of us has the better grasp of this issue.
 
Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

Greek NASB Number: 1093

Greek Word: γῆ

Transliterated Word: gê
Root: a prim. word;

Definition: the earth, land:--

List of English Words and Number of Times Used
country (2),
earth (165),
earthly (1),
ground (20),
land (46),
soil (16).

"Earth" is a mistranslation, dude, given that Revelation 1:7 is taken directly from Zechariah 12:10-14, and the word used in that passage is "land", as in the "land" of Judah! This is why literal translations properly translate this word "land."

But don't let the facts stand in the way of your false literalist folly.



Like so many of your ilk, incapable of dealing rationally with the deficiencies of your understanding, you lash out and call those with a better understanding of this material "wrong."

Whatever. I think anybody without a doctrinal dog in this hunt can see which of us has the better grasp of this issue.


First twisting, now you are stretching and grasping at straws!:shocked!

Keep on considering yourself whatever you consider yourself to be.

7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Keep on twisting and stretching the scriptures into whatever you want them to say.

Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

In the future! :amen


JLB



 
First twisting, now you are stretching and grasping at straws!:shocked!
Project much?

Keep on considering yourself whatever you consider yourself to be.

Whenever you have to challenge someone else's faith as a defense for your own position, you really don't have much to stand on.

You're dismissed. :salute
 
Then Futurism has come crashing down a thousand times.

I have got news for you. I'm not a futurist.

Futurism is a man made word, those are your word's.

I am God's son, through the blood of Jesus Christ.

You can make all the names and phrases you like, if the not in the bible then why do it.

If scripture has been fulfilled, then it has come to pass.

If scripture has not been fulfilled, then we are waiting for it to come to pass.

It's that simple.

JLB
 
I have got news for you. I'm not a futurist.

Futurism is a man made word, those are your word's.

I am God's son, through the blood of Jesus Christ.

You can make all the names and phrases you like, if the not in the bible then why do it.

You've given me so much to think about!

So many choices for the lamest of all arguments. "Preterism" is a manmade word, and you just used it! Did anyone say "futurism" is from the Bible? No, "futurism" is just to contrast with "preterism."

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You've given me so much to think about!

So many choices for the lamest of all arguments. "Preterism" is a manmade word, and you just used it! Did anyone say "futurism" is from the Bible? No, "futurism" is just to contrast with "preterism."
.
Show me in my quote below where I mentioned the word Preterism!

Show me in Matthew 24:4-25:46 where Jesus mentioned the word temple or phrase that refers to the destruction of the temple!


I have got news for you. I'm not a futurist.

Futurism is a man made word, those are your word's.

I am God's son, through the blood of Jesus Christ.

You can make all the names and phrases you like, if the not in the bible then why do it.

If scripture has been fulfilled, then it has come to pass.

If scripture has not been fulfilled, then we are waiting for it to come to pass.

It's that simple.
JLB
 
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If scripture has not been fulfilled, then we are waiting for it to come to pass.

It's that simple.

Then why havnt you answered?
The scriptures concerning His first coming were fulfilled, LITERALLY.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

So his name isnt Jesus at all it is Immanuel... Perhaps you referred to the resultant reconstruction of Dave's Tabernachle? Maybe the building of a temple with living stones? Who peirced him ?? Scattering sheep? ..............

The scriptures concerning the destruction of the temple were fulfilled, LITERALLY.

The scriptures concerning His Second coming will be fulfilled, LITERALLY
. Well if the record above is any indication ,,
It must be concluded since the Son of the Virgin is called Jesus the prophecy remains in the future.:rolling
 
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If scripture has not been fulfilled, then we are waiting for it to come to pass.

It's that simple.

Then why havnt you answered?
The scriptures concerning His first coming were fulfilled, LITERALLY.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

So his name isnt Jesus at all it is Immanuel... Perhaps you referred to the resultant reconstruction of Dave's Tabernachle? Maybe the building of a temple with living stones? Who peirced him ?? Scattering sheep? ..............
It must be concluded since the Son of the Virgin is called Jesus the prophecy remains in the future.:rolling

So according to Hitch He only has one name!:shocked!

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

JLB
 
If scripture has not been fulfilled, then we are waiting for it to come to pass.

It's that simple.

Then why havnt you answered?

So according to Hitch He only has one name!:shocked!
Another of your falsshoods, ho hum, but since you brought it up there is only one name the virgin is prophecied to give him.
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

JLB

The scriptures concerning His first coming were fulfilled, LITERALLY.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


Interesting ,this passage tells us that the Virgin will give him a name, a specific name.

As you say so often 'didnt happen' , and we're all informed that unfulfillled prophecy has to come to pass in the future, or at least that what JLB says. Or used to say anyways...
 
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So according to Hitch He only has one name!:shocked!

Jesus only has one name: Jesus (Iesous). Immanuel is not his name, at least not literally - yet you insist it's literally his name. You just make things. Immanuel is an epithet.
 
Jesus only has one name: Jesus (Iesous). Immanuel is not his name, at least not literally - yet you insist it's literally his name. You just make things. Immanuel is an epithet.

JLB insists on suggesting that all prophecy must be fulfilled literally: "Every eye shall see him", "Sun darkened, moon turned red", the "heavens and earth" literally catching fire and burning up (how do you burn up the sky?), Jesus literally "returning physically on a cloud" (or is it a white horse...don't know what he thinks about that one), etc.

The problem is, such literalism works against his argument when he suggests "The scriptures concerning His first coming were fulfilled, LITERALLY" and then someone comes along and says "Mary was supposed to call Him 'Immanuel.'"

In other words, how can the scriptures be fulfilled "literally" when at least one of them has Mary giving Him a different name? You either need to live with that discrepancy or develop a better interpretive framework for understanding this stuff. Futurists have chosen the former evinced by the way they ignore passages that don't fit their doctrinal views.

The futurist's inability to separate the literal from the symbolic is the real cause of the problem here.
 
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