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Is Christ coming in our life time or is it history

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All historical sources say Rome, in 70ad.

The Histor---------------what? Like the History Channel?

I see your point........... This generation and we want to just take that and stretch it into 2000 years in some magical way. The only way to see if it's the same temple in Dan 9, Luke 21 if it is a temple in Dan 9 is from the History channel though. I think the History channel also had something about Jesus bones in a box......... ewwwwww......

We have Jesus, in Luke 21 talking about the Olive Garden courses. Them folks were
talking about the temple all Bling, bling, and Jesus said not one stone will be left. I assume He meant that temple.
Now, I have to go back to Dan 9 and figure out if there is even a temple in there as the Word Sanctuary means holy place
and decided if it's the one Jesus was talking about in Luke 21

I asked for the Scripture about who destroyed it and when. The scripture is "Watch the History Channel"

I have heard about Rome and Titus coming in to destroy the temple in 70ad. I also heard about the Middle East coming in and destroying the temple. both arguments sound reasonable enough for history.

Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

It seems our Airtight proof rides on the...... cough..... cough... History Channel.

No problem. Those verses above look a whole lot like seals to me. Just the "History of these signs wonders and famines from Heaven recorded in some History text will be fine." I will need all that Jesus mentioned, earthquakes and everything tied to the coming of Rome to destroy the temple. I have not found it yet, but I am sure you have it ready. I am willing to
look at ...... cough.... the History Channel if some Historian has recorded these amazing events together.

Being Airtight. I know you have it Brother...... 2000 years for that generation to happen sounds crazy, right?

Get me the....... sigh...... History.

Blessings.
Mike.

Brother Mike

You mentioned "history channel", I said "historical sources". Such as historians, and historical records from the period in discussion (first century)
I sense your sarcasm.....history channel.....?????

Of course Dan.9 speaks of the same temple.....(457 bc plus 69 weeks (483 years) brings us to 27ad-Jesus' baptism).
What temple was standing in 27ad?
The same temple destroyed in 70 ad?
We take "history's word" for "history " all the time!
Historical records say that Christopher Columbus first crossed the ocean......History records say that Napolean was a General.....that Titus was a Roman general.....ect....
You and I were not there.....we must believe the consistent "historical records"
Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70ad, why should you stumble at this "history"?

Let me know when you have settled "the obvious".....if I may say so, I would say that you are "over thinking" the simple thinks Brother Mike.

You said "It seems our Airtight proof rides on the...... cough..... cough... History Channel."

Answer: Wrong!
Your missing it! It doesn't matter who destroyed Jerusalem for my argument to be "air tight"
Listen:
Both Jerusalems destruction (v20) and Jesus' "coming in the clouds" (v27) are mentioned in Luke 21.
In verse 32 Jesus says that a (one) generation "this generation" will not die until "all" be fulfilled.
Both Jerusalems destruction and Jesus' coming in the clouds are a part of the "ALL"
Therefore, Jesus is saying that one generation will remain alive to see both Jerusalems
destruction and his "coming in the clouds"

This is impossible, therefore his "coming in the clouds" does not refer to his "future return", but rather, he is quoting O.T. prophecy to explain and reveal something to his JEWISH hearers. (Just like he did with Ciaphad in Math.26:64)

Do you see, (do you perceive and understand) it doesn't matter who destroyed Jerusalem, my point is that is was destroyed, and that a generation SAW this.......the same generation generation who saw (perceived and understood) his coming in the clouds.

Air tight indeed Brother Mike!

Blessings
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Answer: Wrong!
Your missing it! It doesn't matter who destroyed Jerusalem for my argument to be "air tight"
Listen:
Both Jerusalems destruction (v20) and Jesus' "coming in the clouds" (v27) are mentioned in Luke 21.
In verse 32 Jesus says that a (one) generation "this generation" will not die until "all" be fulfilled.
Both Jerusalems destruction and Jesus' coming in the clouds are a part of the "ALL"
Therefore, Jesus is saying that one generation will remain alive to see both Jerusalems
destruction and his "coming in the clouds"

This is impossible, therefore his "coming in the clouds" does not refer to his "future return", but rather, he is quoting O.T. prophecy to explain and reveal something to his JEWISH hearers. (Just like he did with Ciaphad in Math.26:64)

Do you see, (do you perceive and understand) it doesn't matter who destroyed Jerusalem, my point is that is was destroyed, and that a generation SAW this.......the same generation generation who saw (perceived and understood) his coming in the clouds.


I must be dense and confused here.................... One generation will see the Temples blasted and Jesus coming in the clouds ........... Was that 70ad or yet to happen.

Wow, I needed to go back to post 1.

You make sense about 2K years just magically passing in this generation. I get it but when do you say Jesus came in the clouds the Earthquakes came and so on. In connection to the temple getting blasted. We have a issue of I think I know what your talking about when I don't know.

It also bugs me you bring up this History stuff as if it's rock solid, but you say it's not needed. It might help If I ask questions then you just answer them for me. Get me up to speed. I know what JBL believes, it's a close version of what I see but He stays a bit longer than I do during Tribulation.

has tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 Already come to pass?
What date the temple destroyed?
What date the Earthquakes, the sun go out and stars rolled up?
What date Jesus came in the Clouds?

Just give me the dates so i can sort it in my head. You have sounded great until we get to this temple stuff and Jesus rolling in the clouds. You lost me off your boat, Go back and pick me up.

Blessings.

Mike.
 
Do you see, (do you perceive and understand) it doesn't matter who destroyed Jerusalem, my point is that is was destroyed, and that a generation SAW this.......the same generation generation who saw (perceived and understood) his coming in the clouds. Air tight indeed Brother Mike!

Where is the language of the city and sanctuary destroyed in the Olivet Discourse.

Here is the scripture that shows the city surrounded and the Son of Man being seen -

Zechariah 12 -

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

... though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

And again -

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.


... though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


...then they will look on Me whom they pierced.


... For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;


...And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives


... Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.


7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur.


This is not the events of 70 AD, this is about the The Day of the Lord!


JLB
 
Do you see, (do you perceive and understand) it doesn't matter who destroyed Jerusalem, my point is that is was destroyed, and that a generation SAW this.......the same generation generation who saw (perceived and understood) his coming in the clouds. Air tight indeed Brother Mike!

Where is the language of the city and sanctuary destroyed in the Olivet Discourse.

Here is the scripture that shows the city surrounded and the Son of Man being seen -

Zechariah 12 -

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away
will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

... though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

And again -

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.


... though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.
It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


...then they will look on Me whom they pierced.


... For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;


...And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives


... Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.


7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur.


This is not the events of 70 AD, this is about the The Day of the Lord!


JLB

JLB, you said :Where is the language of the city and sanctuary destroyed in the Olivet Discourse.?"
Answer: I already showed you in Luke 21 "the language of the city and temple being
destroyed"

You quoted :7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. "

Response:
Jesus said.....out of your bellies shall flow rivers if living water (John 7) (living water glows from the Church)
In Rev.21:1-9 the Church (the bride, the Lambs wife) is revealed as the new Jerusalem ......"come here and I will show you the bride the Lambs wife......and he showed me the new Jerusalem......"

Living waters already flow from Jerusalem JLB.......it is the living flow of the Spirit which flows from New Jerusalem, the new covenant Church, the Bride, the Lambs wife!
This is not a "day to come".......the Holy Ghost calls it Today (Heb.4)!!!!

The futurist sees everything by the letter, "come up hither", and see these things by the Spirit!
 
JLB, you said :Where is the language of the city and sanctuary destroyed in the Olivet Discourse.?" Answer: I already showed you in Luke 21 "the language of the city and temple being destroyed"



You have not shown it, because it doesn't exist.

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

This is a reference to Zechariah and the end of the age.


1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur.

From the very Mount of Olives where Jesus gave His Olivet discourse -


And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,

...And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,


This is what Jesus was referring to in His Olivet Discourse.

This event has not taken place yet.

This is where Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies and is associated with His return!

Case Closed!


JLB
 
Answer: Wrong!
Your missing it! It doesn't matter who destroyed Jerusalem for my argument to be "air tight"
Listen:
Both Jerusalems destruction (v20) and Jesus' "coming in the clouds" (v27) are mentioned in Luke 21.
In verse 32 Jesus says that a (one) generation "this generation" will not die until "all" be fulfilled.
Both Jerusalems destruction and Jesus' coming in the clouds are a part of the "ALL"
Therefore, Jesus is saying that one generation will remain alive to see both Jerusalems
destruction and his "coming in the clouds"

This is impossible, therefore his "coming in the clouds" does not refer to his "future return", but rather, he is quoting O.T. prophecy to explain and reveal something to his JEWISH hearers. (Just like he did with Ciaphad in Math.26:64)

Do you see, (do you perceive and understand) it doesn't matter who destroyed Jerusalem, my point is that is was destroyed, and that a generation SAW this.......the same generation generation who saw (perceived and understood) his coming in the clouds.


I must be dense and confused here.................... One generation will see the Temples blasted and Jesus coming in the clouds ........... Was that 70ad or yet to happen.

Wow, I needed to go back to post 1.

You make sense about 2K years just magically passing in this generation. I get it but when do you say Jesus came in the clouds the Earthquakes came and so on. In connection to the temple getting blasted. We have a issue of I think I know what your talking about when I don't know.

It also bugs me you bring up this History stuff as if it's rock solid, but you say it's not needed. It might help If I ask questions then you just answer them for me. Get me up to speed. I know what JBL believes, it's a close version of what I see but He stays a bit longer than I do during Tribulation.

has tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 Already come to pass?
What date the temple destroyed?
What date the Earthquakes, the sun go out and stars rolled up?
What date Jesus came in the Clouds?

Just give me the dates so i can sort it in my head. You have sounded great until we get to this temple stuff and Jesus rolling in the clouds. You lost me off your boat, Go back and pick me up.

Blessings.

Mike.

Brother Mike

You asked: has tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 Already come to pass?
Answer: YES
You asked: What date the temple destroyed?
Answer 70ad
You asked: What date the Earthquakes, the sun go out and stars rolled up?
Answer: 67-70ad
You asked: What date Jesus came in the Clouds?
Answer: 30ad (however, the "seeing" or the "understanding" of this came in 70ad)


You asked: I must be dense and confused here.................... One generation will see the Temples blasted and Jesus coming in the clouds ........... Was that 70ad or yet to happen.
Answer: 70ad.....and because this is true, my Luke 21 argument remains airtight!

We can discuss these question and my answers one at a time if you like?
State which one you want to start with......and let chips fall where they will!
Blessings
 
JLB, you said :Where is the language of the city and sanctuary destroyed in the Olivet Discourse.?" Answer: I already showed you in Luke 21 "the language of the city and temple being destroyed"



You have not shown it, because it doesn't exist.

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

This is a reference to Zechariah and the end of the age.


1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur.

From the very Mount of Olives where Jesus gave His Olivet discourse -


And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,

...And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,


This is what Jesus was referring to in His Olivet Discourse.

This event has not taken place yet.

This is where Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies and is associated with His return!

Case Closed!


JLB

You must re-evaluate you interpretation of Zecharias' prophecy and what the "end of the age" refers to!

Paul said the "end of the age" was in his day (during his generation)
Heb.9:26 "But NOW once in the END OF THE AGE hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself"
1Cor.10:11 "Now these things happened to them as examples for us. They were written down to warn US (the first century Church) who live at the END OF THE AGE!"

Jesus said the "end of the age" would be fulfilled before "that generation" passed away
Math.24:3...."what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age.......(34)....."THIS GENERATION (the first century generation) will not pass until all these things be fulfilled!"

The apostles taught that their days (the first century) were the LAST DAYS!
Heb.1:1-2 "God who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past yo the fathers by the prophets, hath in THESE LAST DAYS spoken to US (the first century church)...."
So did Peter:
Acts 2:15-27....."but THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel.....in the LAST DAYS.....
(THIS IS THAT.....THE LAST DAYS....)

Apostolic doctrine teaches that the LAST DAYS and the END OF THE AGE was a time period which came upon the first century church!
The last days were the last days of the passing age (the Mosiac economy-which although abolished at the cross, continued for 40 years until it's destruction in 70ad).

JLB, your doctrine that the last days are upon US and that the end of the age is upon US in the year 2013, totally contradicts the teaching of Jesus and his apostles.

Blessings
 
So far so good guys.... :) lets remember ....Addressing a member by name is fine....

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.
 
You asked: has tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 Already come to pass?
Answer: YES
You asked: What date the temple destroyed?
Answer 70ad
You asked: What date the Earthquakes, the sun go out and stars rolled up?
Answer: 67-70ad
You asked: What date Jesus came in the Clouds?
Answer: 30ad (however, the "seeing" or the "understanding" of this came in 70ad)

I am with you..................... The historical account of the stars vanishing and the temple and such. Also need the historic account of a resurrection. Give me that and I am on your side. If something is airtight then there should be tons of proof somewhere, even if not in the bible. Include the resurrection event also that was recorded. Included the death toll numbers also.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Resurrection Event at this time also during the destruction of the temple.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

No Flesh saved unless that time was made short, so we have an event that was greater than the flood which killed about everyone and in this event being greater than the flood most the earth population would be dead......................
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Just give me the History where this is all documented, and I am on your team. It could not be just a coincidence if all these events are recorded as Historical fact. Airtight!!! I agree...... Just point me to where this was all recorded by some Historian.

Blessings.

Mike.
 
JLB, you said :Where is the language of the city and sanctuary destroyed in the Olivet Discourse.?" Answer: I already showed you in Luke 21 "the language of the city and temple being destroyed"



You have not shown it, because it doesn't exist.

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

This is a reference to Zechariah and the end of the age.


1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur.

From the very Mount of Olives where Jesus gave His Olivet discourse -


And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,

...And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,


This is what Jesus was referring to in His Olivet Discourse.

This event has not taken place yet.

This is where Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies and is associated with His return!

Case Closed!


JLB

You must re-evaluate you interpretation of Zecharias' prophecy and what the "end of the age" refers to!

Paul said the "end of the age" was in his day (during his generation)
Heb.9:26 "But NOW once in the END OF THE AGE hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself"
1Cor.10:11 "Now these things happened to them as examples for us. They were written down to warn US (the first century Church) who live at the END OF THE AGE!"

Jesus said the "end of the age" would be fulfilled before "that generation" passed away
Math.24:3...."what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age.......(34)....."THIS GENERATION (the first century generation) will not pass until all these things be fulfilled!"

The apostles taught that their days (the first century) were the LAST DAYS!
Heb.1:1-2 "God who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past yo the fathers by the prophets, hath in THESE LAST DAYS spoken to US (the first century church)...."
So did Peter:
Acts 2:15-27....."but THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel.....in the LAST DAYS.....
(THIS IS THAT.....THE LAST DAYS....)

Apostolic doctrine teaches that the LAST DAYS and the END OF THE AGE was a time period which came upon the first century church!
The last days were the last days of the passing age (the Mosiac economy-which although abolished at the cross, continued for 40 years until it's destruction in 70ad).

JLB, your doctrine that the last days are upon US and that the end of the age is upon US in the year 2013, totally contradicts the teaching of Jesus and his apostles.

Blessings

The Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and 25 are about The Coming of the Lord in power and great glory -

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


  • This power is demonstrated when His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,.

2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

  • Though He comes to reign and rule in Jerusalem, He will be seen by all the tribes of the earth, not just Jerusalem.


Unlike the events of 70 AD, The Lord will fight against those nations.

By saying "those nations", The Holy Spirit is indicating a multiplicity of nations, not just Rome, is in 70 AD.

The events of Zechariah 14 have not come to pass, just as Matthew 24 events have not come to pass.


Every eye all over the whole earth will see The Son of Man Coming in the clouds with power and great glory, and they will mourn!


Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 have nothing to do with the events of 70 AD, but rather Jesus is referring to the events of Zechariah 12-14 when Jerusalem will be surrounded with armies, and the Lord will return in Power and stand on the Mount of Olives, right where He gave the Olivet Discourse, and the Mount of Olives will split in two!


JLB



 
You asked: has tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 Already come to pass?
Answer: YES
You asked: What date the temple destroyed?
Answer 70ad
You asked: What date the Earthquakes, the sun go out and stars rolled up?
Answer: 67-70ad
You asked: What date Jesus came in the Clouds?
Answer: 30ad (however, the "seeing" or the "understanding" of this came in 70ad)

I am with you..................... The historical account of the stars vanishing and the temple and such. Also need the historic account of a resurrection. Give me that and I am on your side. If something is airtight then there should be tons of proof somewhere, even if not in the bible. Include the resurrection event also that was recorded. Included the death toll numbers also.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Resurrection Event at this time also during the destruction of the temple.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

No Flesh saved unless that time was made short, so we have an event that was greater than the flood which killed
about everyone and in this event being greater than the flood most the earth population would be dead......................

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Just give me the History where this is all documented, and I am on your team. It could not be just a coincidence if all these events are recorded as Historical fact. Airtight!!! I agree...... Just point me to where this was all recorded by some Historian.

Blessings.

Mike.

Brother Mike

I will respond to this post in full later, for now know that:
The stars never literally vanished in 70ad, nor will they
There was no literal resurrection (rising) in 70ad, there is only one physical resurrection
The phrase "such as was not since the beginning of the world...." and similar phrases are used several times in scripture. This is called "hyperbolic language", and if taken "literally", causes many similar scriptures to contradict eachother.

Thanks, more later.
 
YOu do know JBL once Hope in Glory gives me these Historical documents of everything I asked, I will have to be persuaded to jump on his side here. That means I have to change up my Pre-trib rapture theory as soon as he provides these air tight documents with Rome coming in and the stars vanishing with earthquakes and most the earth's population being destroyed like at the time of the flood, Jesus coming in the clouds, recorded as History. I am very excited that man has this all recorded in perfect order.

I suggest you Join use once all these historical documents are provided.

Just giving you a head up JBL

Blessings.

Mike.
 
The phrase "such as was not since the beginning of the world...." and similar phrases are used several times in scripture. This is called "hyperbolic language", and if taken "literally", causes many similar scriptures to contradict eachother.

Thanks, more later.

So the temple being destroyed by (ROME?) would be hyperbolic................. got it...........

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So the sun darkened for days, the stars fall from heaven and the heavens are shaken is not recorded anywhere in History because it is Hyperbolic just like the temple you claim Rome destroyed?

That generation is all Hyperbolic............................ OR...................... Just what you want to pick and Choose as Hyperbolic?

Which is it Hope IN Glory? What you choose, or you going to provide that recorded historical information I asked for? Jesus did not say all that if it was not a major event for men looking up have their hearts fail them over a Hyperbolic event???? Seriously??? You want me to believe that?

Air tight documents Brother............. You claim you have Rome destroying the temple now show me where Men looked up and their hearts failed?

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Luk_21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.


Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

So I have to assume at this point that the events mentioned in Isa are not connected to Luke 21 or Matt 24 even though they line up perfectly and the 6th seal released.

In Isa it is the Lord Almighty that does this..................... Not the Roman Army by which I have no scripture yet ........ but it's historic fact....... right. got it.

Then it's all hyperbolic.....................?????????????????????????????

Hope in Glory, Brother.................. I have been in the Word of God for 14 years, every day I have read my Word. I don't know everything but .............. Isa can't be Luke 21....... Unless the Roman army is the Almighty.............. I know God used the Roman army to destroy the sinners off the earth. Right? Cmon brother......... then it's all Hyperbolic?

Wow........... You can't provide the History, I have no evidence that (This Generation) has come to pass. I give you the benefit of Doubt because I like a lot of things you have taught, but now the evidence I want is "Hyperbolic" How convenient. Now I am comparing the day of the Lord where the Roman army destroyed the sinners off the earth, do we have historical evidence that Rome was sent by the Almighty to destroy sinners? Don't bother I know we don't.............
The Almighty sent Rome to destroy His temple, that has to be it.

Air Tight means there can't be any possible argument against it. I feel a big draft here.

Blessings to you..

Mike.
 
The phrase "such as was not since the beginning of the world...." and similar phrases are used several times in scripture. This is called "hyperbolic language", and if taken "literally", causes many similar scriptures to contradict eachother.

Thanks, more later.

So the temple being destroyed by (ROME?) would be hyperbolic................. got it...........

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So the sun darkened for days, the stars fall from heaven and the heavens are shaken is not recorded anywhere in History because it is Hyperbolic just like the temple you claim Rome destroyed?
That generation is all Hyperbolic............................ OR...................... Just what you want to pick and Choose as Hyperbolic?

Which is it Hope IN Glory? What you choose, or you going to provide that recorded historical information I asked for? Jesus did not say all that if it was not a major event for men looking up have their hearts fail them over a Hyperbolic
event???? Seriously??? You want me to believe that?

Air tight documents Brother............. You claim you have Rome destroying the temple now show me where Men looked up and their hearts failed?

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Luk_21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are
coming on the earth
: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.


Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

So I have to assume at this point that the events mentioned in Isa are not connected to Luke 21 or Matt 24 even though they line up perfectly and the 6th seal released.

In Isa it is the Lord Almighty that does this..................... Not the Roman Army by which I have no scripture yet ........ but
it's historic fact....... right. got it.

Then it's all hyperbolic.....................?????????????????????????????

Hope in Glory, Brother.................. I have been in the Word of God for 14 years, every day I have read my Word. I don't know everything but .............. Isa can't be Luke 21....... Unless the Roman army is the Almighty.............. I know God used the Roman army to destroy the sinners off the earth. Right? Cmon brother......... then it's all Hyperbolic?

Wow........... You can't provide the History, I have no evidence that (This Generation) has come to pass. I give you the benefit of Doubt because I like a lot of things you have taught, but now the evidence I want is "Hyperbolic" How convenient. Now I am comparing the day of the Lord where the Roman army destroyed the sinners off the earth, do we have historical evidence that Rome was sent by the Almighty to destroy sinners? Don't bother I know we don't.............
The Almighty sent Rome to destroy His temple, that has to be it.

Air Tight means there can't be any possible argument against it. I feel a big draft here.

Blessings to you..

Mike.

Brother Mike

I said "
Originally Posted by Hope of glory
The phrase "such as was not since the beginning of the world...." and similar phrases are used several times in scripture. This is called "hyperbolic language", and if taken "literally", causes many similar scriptures to contradict eachother."

I did not say Jerusalems destruction was "hyperbolic language"......how do you come up with this stuff?
I said the language used to describe the tribulation was hyperbolic language!

Here is my airtight argument, with no draft whatsoever!!!

"Both Jerusalems destruction (v20) and Jesus' "coming in the clouds" (v27) are mentioned in Luke 21.
In verse 32 Jesus says that a (one) generation "this generation" will not die until "all" be fulfilled.
Both Jerusalems destruction and Jesus' coming in the clouds are a part of the "ALL"
Therefore, Jesus is saying that one generation will remain alive to see both Jerusalems
destruction and his "coming in the clouds"

This is impossible, therefore his "coming in the clouds" does not refer to his "future return", but rather, he is quoting O.T. prophecy to explain and reveal something to his JEWISH hearers. (Just like he did with Ciaphas in Math.26:64)"

Simple! Whether or not Rome destroyed Jerusalem or an army of ants destroyed it, the fact remains that it was destroyed in 70ad and the generation which saw it's destruction MUST also be the same generation to see Jesus' coming in the clouds!

This argument is airtight.....no drafts!
Once you can admit that this reasoning is correct, then we can move on to discuss what certain scriptures mean (ie. stars falling from heaven, coming on the clouds, tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world....etc.)

Brother Mike, you said: .....Isa can't be Luke 21
Really.....
Isa. 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
.....he shall destroy.....
......the Son of man Coming on the clouds of heaven...."

The "he" (the Lord) of Isa is the "Son of man" of the gospels......
.....he shall come on the clouds......(search your word, this OT language speaks of judgment and destruction at the hand of the Lord).

Please show me the "draft" in my Luke 21 argument if there is one.

Thanks
 
Brother Mike, you said: .....Isa can't be Luke 21
Really.....
Isa. 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
.....he shall destroy.....
......the Son of man Coming on the clouds of heaven...."

The "he" (the Lord) of Isa is the "Son of man" of the gospels......
.....he shall come on the clouds......(search your word, this OT language speaks of judgment and destruction at the hand of the Lord).

Please show me the "draft" in my Luke 21 argument if there is one.

So Jesus already came in the clouds, it's the stars part that are hyperbolic. Isa and Luke are the same event that happened in 70ad am I following you?

Blessings.

Mike.
 
How about slowing down the sarcasm.

Not sarcasm............... (OK it is) however, I want Hope in Glory to think!!! think!!! think!!! about what He is telling us. I also don't want to miss something He says if what He says happens to be true. It's like this......

Someone believes in the Trinity Doctrine. So I ask who Jesus prayed to not understanding fully what they believe..........

They say it was the 2nd person of the Trinity, who was praying to the first part of the Trinity (Father). They tell me both are fully a person and coequal and both are God.

I say, OK. I see where both are God, One is not lesser than the other, both are persons, both distinct I see that, it makes sense. I agree 100%!!! and I really do agree, no sarcasm.

So, then I say................ OK, we have two persons, that are distinct, and they are both fully God, is that correct?

"YES" they say, that is correct

OK, so then where do you just come up with ONE GOD? You just told me there was two of them, the 1st and 2nd person of the Trinity you said are both God? I agree with that.

They say, "Because there is only ONE GOD!! as clearly shown in the scriptures."

sigh.......... OK, there are Two Gods, the 2nd person prays to the 1st person. I am following there, at what point do they just become ONE GOD?

They say, "It's always been ONE ONE God."

OK, So if your wife tells you to get two gallons of Milk, both fully come from a cow, both Milk, Both in a plastic Jug, Both 2% Milk, your only going to bring back ONE MILK because Why?????

They say, "NO, I would bring back two gallons of Milk."

I am confused.................. Tell me this (Showing scripture of the two thrones in Heaven, One belongs to Jesus, one to His Father in REV) So, then you and I are in Heaven, and we are in the throne room with Jesus on His throne and the Father on His. Someone comes and ask you how many Gods you count, what will you tell them?

See, it's bringing back what they are telling you as true, and making them think about what they are exactly saying. It is Sarcasm but it's not putting them down, it's trying to get them to see something you see without a ton of scriptures going back and fourth. You bring back to them, what they said is true in another light.

The Trinity example, I already know going into it that the doctrine itself said it was a mystery. The mystery part is how can each be God, but there only be one. That can not be answered with Human reasoning as it's a mystery. It's already in the doctrine. The person trying to defend it does not even understand their own doctrine and how it's written, so I use that on them. They will come to the same brick wall that those who wrote the doctrine come to.

The correct answer is that it's a mystery of our faith, that we believe in One GOD. After adding the mystery part, no more need to defend it. It's what they choose to believe. I personally can't put faith into some mystery, that is me though.

I hope you understand why the sarcasm, it's not to be mean. If you don't try to show someone what they are saying, it goes on forever with scripture after scripture.

Blessings..

Mike.
 
How about slowing down the sarcasm. :rollingpin
[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION]


I am not asking why the sarcasm. Have you read the ToS? here is a point:

1.3: If you feel that any action taken was unfair, it can be appealed. To appeal an action taken against you by CF.net staff, you are advised to start a new thread in the ‘Talk With the Staff’ forum area. Threads in this forum are viewable only by the person initiating the thread and CF.net staff. In this private venue, anyone on the CF.net staff may respond, and the OP can address his/her concerns with regard to the action taken. This forum is intended only for appeals to actions by CF.net staff. TWTS area may also be used, according to Staff discretion, for other expedient purpose of communication. If a member disagrees with a Moderator's action, they are not to take their dispute public.

You can adjust to the rules like everyone else
 
You asked: has tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 Already come to pass? Answer: YES

! Here is what the word says -

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The destruction of one city does not come close to what is described by Jesus.

The city of Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians before, that alone disqualifies the events of 70 AD as being the great tribulation.

The whole earth was flooded in the days of Noah, the events of 70 AD in no way eclipses the event of the flood of Noah's day.

You asked: What date the Earthquakes, the sun go out and stars rolled up? Answer: 67-70ad

Here's what the word says -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The Great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world, nor ever shall, has not happened.

Therefore the sun, moon, and stars event has not happened.

Furthermore, Jesus has not Come in the clouds with power and great glory, whereby every eye has seen Him.

When Jesus returns as described in Matthew 24:29-31, al the Jews will see Him and mourn, for they will then know He is the Messiah that they rejected.

When Jesus Comes in the clouds in power and great glory, there will be no more unbelieving Jews left on Earth, for they wil have seen Him as He is.

When Jesus returns as described in Mathew 24, we will have risen from the dead and those who are alive and remain will be caught together with them and we have will be changed and have our immortal bodies that will never die.

You asked: What date Jesus came in the Clouds? Answer: 30ad (however, the "seeing" or the "understanding" of this came in 70ad)

This has to be one of the funniest and at the same time, saddest things I have ever seen a Preterist write.

Jesus came in the clouds in 30 AD, but everybody didn't see this event until 70 AD.

You asked: I must be dense and confused here.................... One generation will see the Temples blasted and Jesus coming in the clouds ........... Was that 70ad or yet to happen. Answer: 70ad.....and because this is true, my Luke 21 argument remains airtight!

Nothing you have said is airtight, Nothing!!

Oh, except for when Jesus came in the clouds in 30 AD, but everyone didn't see it until 70 AD. Yeah, that is airtight alright.


No wonder Preterism has been marked as Heresy by this forum.


JLB
 
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