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About how many here hold some preterism views? - Part 2

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thethinker said:
Likewise, only the Christians living in John's time could understand the visions because they were "signified" to hide the meaning from their enemies. Unless you are a prophet or an angel, you CANNOT know what the symbols in the Revelation meant to them.
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1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3

His servants.

Those who hear.

No sorry, you don't have to be living at that time and be a prophet or an angel.

Signified means to convey a meaning or make known.

The revealing of Jesus Christ is what this book of Revelation is about.

There are some symbolic meanings in this prophecy and there is some direct speech as well.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants...


JLB
 
JLB said:
thethinker said:
See my post on the word "signified." http://www.christianforums.net/showt...ht=#post838013
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Post 58 above explains the word signified well enough.


JLB
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Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon page 365:

semainio, to indicate by a sign

just-ify, to make just
pur-ify, to make pure
glor-ify, to make glorious
sign-ify, to make a sign

Did Jesus literally have seven eyes and seven horns? Is His hair actually made of wool? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Furthermore, John saw what he wrote in VISIONS. There is not one single vision in the bible that did not use symbols that were meant to be signs of what God was really trying to say. Find one.

Tim LaHaye has made a lot of money off gullible Christians from his Left Behind series.
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

JLB said:
I have no doubt John was in a tribulation. Nero was feeding Christians to lions for entertainment. He tried to boil John alive in oil.
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Are you suggesting John was Exiled to Patmos by NERO?
I agree!

However this is not a reference to the great tribulation that has not been since the beginning of the world, nor shall ever be.
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Aside from there being no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24), and due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated, You apparantly overlook the common Old Testament figure of speech Jesus is utilizing in Matthew 24:21: "ever was/nor ever shall be."


Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hebraic idiom meaning "very great" or "very much." Our Lord was simply saying in Matthew 24:21 that there would be very great tribulation. St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Luke 21:22-23)​
Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

Rev33 said:
JLB said:
I have no doubt John was in a tribulation. Nero was feeding Christians to lions for entertainment. He tried to boil John alive in oil.
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting John was Exiled to Patmos by NERO?
I agree!

However this is not a reference to the great tribulation that has not been since the beginning of the world, nor shall ever be.
Click to expand...

Aside from there being no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24), and due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated, You apparantly overlook the common Old Testament figure of speech Jesus is utilizing in Matthew 24:21: "ever was/nor ever shall be."


Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hebraic idiom meaning "very great" or "very much." Our Lord was simply saying in Matthew 24:21 that there would be very great tribulation. St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Luke 21:22-23)​
Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).
Click to expand...


Without question, Jesus teaches that those who witness the sun, moon and stars event, will see Him coming in the clouds.

This will be seen world wide as all the families of the earth will witness His return.


JLB
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

Just a practical question

So we have no sun moon or stars... how does the earth make the clouds....
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

reba said:
Just a practical question

So we have no sun moon or stars... how does the earth make the clouds....
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The sun will be darkened. It doesn't say we will have no sun.

When you start adding or taking away from what the word actually says, I suppose that will lead to all sorts of "practical" conclusions.

He will be seen by all the tribes of the earthy, coming on the clouds of heaven.

clouds of heaven.

of heaven.



JLB
 
How is a third part of the sun smitten, so that only a third part is darkened, but also that there is no day for a third of it?
 
Sinthesis said:
How is a third part of the sun smitten, so that only a third part is darkened, but also that there is no day for a third of it?
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29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

This is a world wide event, whereby all the people on earth will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds, just as the angels who were present and told the Apostles when He left.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11


JLB
 
if the third of the sun goes dark? uhm the whole world will go dark. the sun is a bit bigger then the earth. lets put it this way. a third of the sun is equalivent to 333 earths. if a sun spot was that large the whole spectrum sent to the earth would be much dimmer. thus much life would die.
 
JLB said:
Sinthesis said:
How is a third part of the sun smitten, so that only a third part is darkened, but also that there is no day for a third of it?
Click to expand...

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

This is a world wide event, whereby all the people on earth will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds, just as the angels who were present and told the Apostles when He left.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11


JLB
Click to expand...

Rev 8:12 - And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.​

I'm not making this up. The answer is in symbolism, because literally it makes no sense literally.
 
I agree synthesis. the moon gets its light from the sun. so why would god then smite a third of the moon? never mind the stars are now mostly not seeable in the large cities. one cant get a good of view of the stars from NEW YORK city with all the skyscrapers.
 
jasoncran said:
if the third of the sun goes dark? uhm the whole world will go dark. the sun is a bit bigger then the earth. lets put it this way. a third of the sun is equalivent to 333 earths. if a sun spot was that large the whole spectrum sent to the earth would be much dimmer. thus much life would die.
Click to expand...

Isa 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
​

We can see the opposite in scripture as well. Literally this would be fatal, instead of the blessing it is meant to convey.
 
I know, that is the reason im a preterist. too much sun light means that the earth would boil or be like venus.
 
jasoncran said:
I know, that is the reason im a preterist. too much sun light means that the earth would boil or be like venus.
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So instead we look for significance to the sun, moon, stars that is not scientific, but symbolic, which is what would have been important to the people that lived when the words were put down.
 
sadly I cant find any jewish thinking on that from the sages. rashi does say somethings on it but he isn't a ramban in that matter.
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
 
Plug that in and we have a third of 'Israel' darkened, or a third not being the light to the Gentiles as they were intended, as just one interpretation
 
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