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Abomination of Desolation in 70AD
- Thread starter Hope of glory
- Start date
The armies surrounding Jerusalem, has nothing to do with the events of 70 AD.
There is no language to tie the events of 70 AD to in Luke 21.
The language "destroy the city and sanctuary" is nt seen in the Olivet Discourse.
Zechariah 14 show BOTH the armies and the return of The Lord with the saints, as well as the signs in the heavens.
Zechariah 14 is clearly not about the Roman armies.
1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
There was no Return of The Lord in 70 AD!
Preterism has built a doctrine from misunderstanding the scriptures.
JLB
Excellent observation!
Zechariah contains language of both Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and the return of The Lord.
Zechariah 14 is about the end of the age, not the events of 70 AD!
JLB
Hope of glory
Member
Amen!
Hyper-futurism must deny simple facts to maintain it's doctrine.
Luke 21:5-6 "....And as some spake of the TEMPLE....the days will come on the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down"
Verse 20 "And when you shall see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies then know that the desolation thereof is nigh"
Verse 332 "...this generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled"
Both the temple and Jerusalem's desolation (destruction, ruin, pulling down) are mentioned in Luke 21. Jesus said his contemporary generation ("this generation") would witness these things before they died (v32)
Historically, Jerusalem and the temple were both destroyed (made desolate) in 70ad.
It is most clear that Luke 21:20 and well as verses 5-6 are linked to and refer to the events of 70ad (Jerusalems destruction). (The futurist ignores the fact of WHO Jesus' listeners were......"you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies....". Jesus tells his FIRST CENTURY LISTENERS that THEY would see this!!!)
Fact: Luke 21:20 refers to Jerusalems destruction in 70ad
However, the futurist believes verse 27 speaks of Jesus' future return..."and they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory"
Fact: the phrase "this generation" refers to one (a single) generation
Question, which the futurist will continue to stumble over:
How can a single generation (this generation) see both Jerusalems destruction (70ad) and Jesus' future return?
The best the futurist can do is to say "verse 20 doesn't refer to Jerusalrms destruction in 70ad". By this they maintain their doctrine yet deny history and the clear language of the text.
Hope of glory
B
Brother Mike
Guest
I have to agree, I still have been waiting and waiting on that scripture for 70ad armies and There does not seem to be any. If Rev was written before 70ad then I doubt it's even in there. As for Temples being overrun. Going through the OT it does not seem nothing new for Jerusalem to loose a temple here or there. In fact they got their butts handed to them on a regular basis for disobedience. Beat down and God restores them back, beat down again then God restores them back.
Which is why I question this Temple in Luke would even be worth mentioning getting (Supposedly) Destroyed in 70ad. Who would really care? It's connected to some very significant events such as all the signs of the 6th seal being released which would have been recorded in History somewhere. The stars vanishing seems like a big deal to me at least.
What really bothers me is that we have to take the stars and not make them really stars, even though we have many exact accounts in the OT. The sun is not really the sun and the moon is not really the moon. A definite event that would have been recorded somewhere.
What we do is make them something else to fit a Doctrine. You don't believe in Healing then you just say that "By His stripes we are healed." Is ummm. Spiritual Healing, nothing to be proven or seen, just believe it.
Then we have this interesting statement. While not trying to come off as a complete nut case like those (Hyper-Futurism's) out there, we are to accept the Watered down version of it, even though we have to accept a very major event as hyperbole or symbolic, like where the heck the moon, stars and sun go? We don't want to come off as a fanatic so no way to those Hyper types, but seriously........ I can't compare the sun, moon and stars to anything reasonable, among other things. Call the stars angels? then all the angels disappearing would be in some history text right? Oh, you can't see angels so covered once again.
It's like Calvinism. There is hyper Calvinist and Calvinist. No matter how little Vodka you pour into my water though I can still taste it. Jesus said it another way, a little something does something to something but it's all bad.
Mike.
I don't remember Jesus paraphrasing scripture, so that it fit someone's doctrine.
JLB
There aint no Scriptures on WWI , WWII so I guess they didn't happen? The USA is not real because there are no Scriptures? IMO Jesus Himself, give the prophesy and some folks deny it to be so. I can't help but see the end of the Jewish Temple life as an important time. The Grace and Mercy of our Lord was shown to the faithful ( of the OT way of worship) to that last generation... The beginning of the end , in the human sense, was the birth of Jesus. He grew and began His earthly ministry. Then we have His Cross...Everything in the OT looks to His Sacrifice. We first see it in Geneses . I believe the old time saying was, the Red Thread that weaves through scripture.....
In reading the OT we see God doing a lot of stuff by generations why should this be different?
In reading the OT we see God doing a lot of stuff by generations why should this be different?
jasoncran
Member
jasoncran
Member
I don't recall any. he told isiah to tell Hezekiah that it would come. Hezekiah was dead long before Josiah and Josiah was dead and 15 years later after his death the destruction came. isiah also sees the man whom would restore isreal to the land . cyrus. if god wanted us to know the end of the world and final jugdgment he would have told the world.when noah preached the flood there wasn't any signs, just that a flood would come.
Deborah13
Member
Hope of glory
Member
Brother Mike
See it's as I said "The best the futurist can do is to say "verse 20 doesn't refer to Jerusalrms destruction in 70ad". By this they maintain their doctrine yet deny history and the clear language of the text."
This is what futurism has to say: "Luke 21:20 is a reference to this prophecy in Zechariah. "
Here are some facts:
Jesus spoke Luke 21 in approx. 30ad, and therefore his listening audience was a first century generation people.
When Jesus said "when YOU shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies..." (verse20), he was still speaking TO the first century generation.
The FACT is: Jesus told his first century generation that THEY would SEE JERUSALEM COMPASSED WITH ARMIES!
When Jesus said "THIS GENERATION shall not pass until all be fulfilled" he was speaking TO his first century contemporary generation!
The fact is: Jesus told his first century contemporary generation that Jerusalem would be surrounded and destroyed before they died (passed away)!
Question Mike:
Was Jesus speaking to his first century generation (were they his listening audience) in Luke 21....Yes or No?
When Jesus said "when YOU shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies..." was he still speaking TO his contemporary first century generation....Yes or No?
According to the simple reading of the text, did Jesus tell his first century contemporary generation that THEY would see Jerusalem surrounded with armies....Yes or No?
Brother Mike, please answer these questions honestly.
When you have done so please answer the following also:
How can a single generation (this generation) see both Jerusalems destruction (v20-a reference to 70ad) and Jesus' future return?
Thank you for your honesty and sincerity.
Hope of glory
B
Brother Mike
Guest
I fully understand what your saying some say that prophecy was fulfilled in (1946?) Israel became a Nation. I have a big issue though when you have to spiritualize the event of the 6th seal, and 7th following with the sun, moon, stars and why would anyone care if Israel lost yet another Temple for disobedience? Why would the Holy Spirit every record those events out of the volumes Jesus had talked about? Certainly they would have been remembered since Rev was written just before 70ad some say. They did not need to be eternally recorded if it was just for "That" generation.
So it's more than just a History lesson I am having issues with here.
Mike.
I see the generation of Jesus as a big deal...Something God planed on for about 4000 years..... Generation of Jesus, meaning around 4BC to the end to the ( what I will call temple age) 70 AD the total destruction of the temple way of life....
I will back out of this discussion or I will just keep repeating myself........ Keep the discussion friendly guys Thanks reba
I will back out of this discussion or I will just keep repeating myself........ Keep the discussion friendly guys Thanks reba