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gr8grace said:Ok, I completely agree with you. But I am talking about when the focus becomes Israel once again.
I believe Paul is one of the 12 Apostles on the 12 Thrones. And we the Church Are witnesses along with Him to Israel.
But Like we have been saying It is minor. You keep preaching these distinctions between the Church and Israel. They should be seen by the believer.
Israel is just a name which can be applied to many things/people to illustrate a contrast with another thing/people. For every instance of the word Israel, you have to ask what/who is the Jacob to that Israel.
Opinions are certainly welcome... and this statement clearly lacks any scriptural support.
It's funny, you start a thread and post scriptural information within it... and typically people respond to anything BUT what the person writes..
Care to comment on anything which has been written, or will this simply be your drive by statement having nothing to do with what has been written ?
As mentioned in the OP, I can't understand why so many seem to have difficulty understanding who Israel is...
Is the word of God not perfectly clear here.. ?
Jacob... his twelve sons... the twelve tribes of Israel...?
Jacob, who is called Israel.
Twelve Apostles, who shall sit upon twelve thrones in the regeneration, judging the twelve tribes of Israel...
The mystery pertaining to Israel... how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..
Israel, the only nation on earth that is not GENTILE..
Revelation showing us clearly each of the twelve tribes with the seal of God in their foreheads.. with respect to the things which shall be hereafter..
How is all of this not painfully obvious ?
ow that His Apostles shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel...?
I don't see this.
Only eleven apostles stayed true to Jesus.
Who is the 12th?
Matthias? Barnabas? Paul?
Your assumption is obviously Matthias but he was not there.
A better reading is that those who have followed Jesus to the end will sit on thrones ruling all of Israel.
Scripture teaches us plainly that Matthias took the place of Judas.
Why wouldn't you read this literally rather than metaphorically as in all believers ?
Hello Eventide,
I enjoy reading your posts and IMO you are rightly dividing the word when it comes to Israel/Church. I want to carry out a thought and See what you think.
I do not see Matthias as the 12th Apostle. I do believe that Peter literally drew straws and they picked Matthias. But when It comes to Apostles, only God chooses. And Matthias was mens choice. And the choice was in the Bible for us to see that men do not choose Apostles, God does. Gods choice was Paul.
I believe this is what Matt 19:30 is speaking of on one level. Paul, the last Apostle chosen by God will be first. Another level being Gentiles and Jews.
SOOO, if I believe this, what doctrine does it affect down the road for me? IOW At what point will you and I bump heads if I believe it is Paul and you believe it is Matthias?
If you had to believe it was Paul, what doctrine or belief would have to change for you? I get the feeling in your belief system, that you cannot have Paul on one of the 12 thrones, why is that? If my assumption is wrong, Forgive me and disregard if my assumption is incorrect.
Just curious, you have obviously given this more thought then me.
Exo_4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Saul became Paul, and gave up his prior understanding of theology for the revelation of Christ.yet if isreal is NOT a church then the law returns and the way of salvation for any man is by mosaic ordinance in the millennium. I don't recall paul loosing his name or inhertence cause he was a Christian.
Scripture teaches us plainly that Matthias took the place of Judas.
Why wouldn't you read this literally rather than metaphorically as in all believers ?
Hello Eventide,
I enjoy reading your posts and IMO you are rightly dividing the word when it comes to Israel/Church. I want to carry out a thought and See what you think.
I do not see Matthias as the 12th Apostle. I do believe that Peter literally drew straws and they picked Matthias. But when It comes to Apostles, only God chooses. And Matthias was mens choice. And the choice was in the Bible for us to see that men do not choose Apostles, God does. Gods choice was Paul.
I believe this is what Matt 19:30 is speaking of on one level. Paul, the last Apostle chosen by God will be first. Another level being Gentiles and Jews.
SOOO, if I believe this, what doctrine does it affect down the road for me? IOW At what point will you and I bump heads if I believe it is Paul and you believe it is Matthias?
If you had to believe it was Paul, what doctrine or belief would have to change for you? I get the feeling in your belief system, that you cannot have Paul on one of the 12 thrones, why is that? If my assumption is wrong, Forgive me and disregard if my assumption is incorrect.
Just curious, you have obviously given this more thought then me.
Gr8grace, it's an interesting aspect of this topic although not vital IMO.
Then again I think that it's fairly clear that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and not one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
I don't understand why the scriptures would show us Matthias being chosen by lot if it wasn't true.
One thing is certain...
In the regeneration, when the Son of man sits in the throne of His glory, His Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
This is clearly future so it means that this is post resurrection of the dead.
This sort of gives new meaning to Romans 9 where we read of The Lord loving Jacob...
Who is Jacob ?
Jacob is... I S R A E L ...
Israel is God's elect, just as the church of God is His elect.
Ok, I completely agree with you. But I am talking about when the focus becomes Israel once again.
If I am understanding your views ... We will go back to shadows again?
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Absolutely not Reba. In the Mill. there will still be people having babies and living physical lives. They will still have the choice to make.
Christ will rule on the earth in the Mill. and some will still not choose Christ, Even with perfect environment and a perfect Judge. And perfect witnesses(you and I)
Its hard to fathom, with all of this that Satan will still have a Army of people with Him at the end of the 1000 years.
yes, but he was still a man of jewish lineage. his genes didn't change. nor did he not also say that he would become a jew to the jew? I do see that he counted that as dung but that doesn't mean he didn't use jewish thoughts to line them up with jesus and any other biblical thing.Saul became Paul, and gave up his prior understanding of theology for the revelation of Christ.yet if isreal is NOT a church then the law returns and the way of salvation for any man is by mosaic ordinance in the millennium. I don't recall paul loosing his name or inhertence cause he was a Christian.
Phl 3:8 - Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
The inheritance Saul expected as a Pharisee became as nothing compared to what he would inherit from Jesus as a Christian.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first...
I've wondered about his before and have my theories about what it means...What does this mean exactly?
One thing is certain...
In the regeneration, when the Son of man sits in the throne of His glory, His Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
This is clearly future so it means that this is post resurrection of the dead.
Actually it means that the OT is interpreted in light of the NT. Thus the actions and beliefs of the OT covenant people are judged by the standards of the NT covenant people, Christianity. As Christians we do this already.
Ok, I completely agree with you. But I am talking about when the focus becomes Israel once again.
If I am understanding your views ... We will go back to shadows again?
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Absolutely not Reba. In the Mill. there will still be people having babies and living physical lives. They will still have the choice to make.
Christ will rule on the earth in the Mill. and some will still not choose Christ, Even with perfect environment and a perfect Judge. And perfect witnesses(you and I)
Its hard to fathom, with all of this that Satan will still have a Army of people with Him at the end of the 1000 years.
How is this interpretation of the millennium any different than what we see around us today?