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Jesus said "this" generation, which is a clear and plain reference to the generation that sees "these things" will be the generation that sees the Coming of The Lord with power and great glory, as well as witnessing the angels go forth and gather His people at the Resurrection of the dead, as well as the rapture.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34
The generation that sees these things, is the generation that will witness the Resurrection.
More than that. Both of you have similar doctrines, as well, and you said you had never heard of him.
Dan
Jesus said "this" generation, which is a clear and plain reference to the generation that sees "these things" will be the generation that sees the Coming of The Lord with power and great glory, as well as witnessing the angels go forth and gather His people at the Resurrection of the dead, as well as the rapture.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34
The generation that sees these things, is the generation that will witness the Resurrection.
Oh Ive heard people refer to those people, but I don't read their commentary.
The scriptures are good for understanding.
Try it sometime.
JLB
JLB, the following is why I believe the Olivet Discourses of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 were talking about the same thing. I will need some pretty solid evidence to the contrary to make me believe otherwise.
Dan
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Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation. . .
Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation . . .
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Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;. . .
Mark 13:14 . . . then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
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Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! . . .
Mark 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matt 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
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Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Matt 24:30 . . . they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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Luke 21:29-30 And he spake to them a parable [of] the fig tree . . . know...that summer is now nigh. . .
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. . . ye know that summer is near:
Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. . . ye know that summer is nigh:
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Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, . . .
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, . . .
Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, . . .
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Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
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JLB, regarding this part, which is obviously different:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation. . .
Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation . . .
There is a lot of debate on what constitutes the "Abomination of Desolation." Among the theories, some have claimed the mere presence of the Roman Armies the soil of the (then) holy city was the Abomination. Others claim the disgraceful actions of the three Jewish factions that were in a civil war with each other inside the city was the Abomination.
But whatever the abomination was, it was most likely something that Christ's people should be able to easily recognize, so they could quickly "get out of Dodge." I believe Jesus identified the Abomination in Luke 21:20 to those who needed the sign.
Dan
Oh Ive heard people refer to those people, but I don't read their commentary.
The scriptures are good for understanding.
Try it sometime.
JLB
The first thing you need to understand is, these chapters are referring to the same place.
In 70 AD, the city and sanctuary are destroyed, and the destroyers [Romans] go home as conquering hero's.
"I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem.
Does this language sound like what happened in 70 AD?
JLB
I find it difficult to believe that you can't tell the difference between -
when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies...
Which is what happens when an army surrounds a cpital city and lays siege to it for months, cutting off all food and resources, before they attack,
and -
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation...
One phrase has to do with the physical destruction of the city of Jerusalem, and the other has to do with the spiritual defilement of the Temple area.
Two completely different sets of instructions for two completely different circumstances.
One being when the armies are surrounding the city, the other is when someone sets up an idol inside the holy place within the temple..
That is just for starters.
JLB
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation...
One phrase has to do with the physical destruction of the city of Jerusalem, and the other has to do with the spiritual defilement of the Temple area.
Two completely different sets of instructions for two completely different circumstances.
Wow! I completely misunderstood your earlier posts.
Actually it does. In the days of Christ, the Jews did not understand the Old Testament prophecies, and they do not to this very day; nor does anyone who interprets the Old Testament prophecies literally.
The Jews were the enemies of Christ and the Christians, not the Romans. There was some crazy emperor named Nero who became the enemy of the Christians late in his reign--approx. 67-68 AD time frame, maybe: but his time was brief. Generally, it was the Jews who were the terror to the Christians.
Assume the entire chapter of Zechariah is referring to New Jerusalem; and to Christ, the seed of Judah (Gal 3:16;) and to the apostles, the judges [or "governors"] of the twelve tribes (Mat 19:28;) and it makes a lot more sense.
Jerusalem's fate was already sealed by the time Jesus was crucified. Jerusalem was dead in the eyes of God, so much so that in the Revelation Jesus labeled it Sodom and Egypt--the ultimate rejection; and not once was it referred to by name.
Dan
John gave us the ultimate clue to understanding that chapter when he declared Zechariah 12:10 to be fulfilled.
"But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced [the Lord's] side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. . . For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled . . . They shall look on [the Lord] whom they pierced." (John 19:34-37)
It is written in Zechariah 12:10, "they shall look upon [the Lord] whom they have pierced."
I believe I found the cause of spiritual defilement of the temple in A.D. 67-70. The abomination of desolation was most likely caused by the warring Jewish factions [the zealots] within the city. The Roman Army of Cestius Gallus arrived at Jerusalem in A.D. 66, but departed. That gave time for the Christians to flee to the mountains, as Jesus warned them to do. Between the time that Gallus left, and Titus arrived, the following abominations occurred within the city:
"10. And now, when the multitude were gotten together to an assembly, and every one was in indignation at these men's seizing upon the sanctuary, at their rapine and murders, but had not yet begun their attacks upon them, (the reason of which was this, that they imagined it to be a difficult thing to suppress these zealots, as indeed the case was,) Ananus stood in the midst of them, and casting his eyes frequently at the temple, and having a flood of tears in his eyes, he said, "Certainly it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places, that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these blood-shedding villains; '" [Josephus, The Wars Of The Jews, IV:3:10].
This was Josephus' summary of the wickedness of his generation of Jews. He also refers to the tribulation that occurred within the city:
"5. It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." [The Wars Of The Jews, V:10:5]
Dan
First you say -
In the days of Christ, the Jews did not understand the Old Testament prophecies, and they do not to this very day; nor does anyone who interprets the Old Testament prophecies literally.
Then in the same breath you say that the piercing was a fulfillment of the prophecy from Zechariah????
John 19:34-37 was not a fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.
John 19:34, the piercing of Jesus was done, so that Zechariah 12:10 should be fulfilled when The Lord returns all of The inhabitants of Israel look upon Him.
I guess all that preterist commentary you study tends to get confusing at times.
...nor does anyone who interprets the Old Testament prophecies literally.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." 22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." Matthew 1:21-23
Fulfilled Literally!
14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son." Matthew 2:14-15
Fulfilled Literally!
22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee. 23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew 2:22-23
Fulfilled Literally!
Most of the old testament prophecies were fulfilled literally.
What is righteous and holy before God cannot be defiled by something from the outside. Defilement is within and can only affect holiness by something that comes from within.
What is righteous and holy before God cannot be defiled by something from the outside. Defilement is within and can only affect holiness by something that comes from within.
ie. If one is raped, they themselves are not defiled in their holiness. But if they willfully participate in an unholy act through desire, then they are defiled within.
Can a thief stealing from you make you a thief?
The forced invasion of an unholy army could not defile what is holy to God.
God told the Jews through Haggai, for one, that if they would return to Him He would dwell with them again in the rebuilt temple (second temple) and He did. It, once again, was their corruption that brought about the defilement of the temple.
As you say, there were groups that were striving for power among the Jews themselves and they took their eyes off the commandments to love one another (written in Torah) and became enemies living in the same camp and defiling it. We, as Christians, need to take care that we do not do the same thing.
Are you saying that: when Jesus was on Mount Olives with his disciples, he told three very similar stories to them--changing details only slightly after the opening segment--then turns on a dime and reverts to two completely different time frames--one in 70 A.D., and one in the very distant future--by saying the exact same thing for all three stories?
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
I am not buying it, unless you can come up with a better argument than you have presented so far.
Thanks,
Dan
I am saying Matthew and Mark are the Olivet Discourse, While Luke was His teaching given in the Temple area.
JLB