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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Redirectionalism
- Thread starter donald perry
- Start date
JLB, the following is why I believe the Olivet Discourses of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 were talking about the same thing. I will need some pretty solid evidence to the contrary to make me believe otherwise.
Dan
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Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation. . .
Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation . . .
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Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;. . .
Mark 13:14 . . . then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
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Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! . . .
Mark 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matt 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
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Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Matt 24:30 . . . they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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Luke 21:29-30 And he spake to them a parable [of] the fig tree . . . know...that summer is now nigh. . .
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. . . ye know that summer is near:
Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. . . ye know that summer is nigh:
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Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, . . .
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, . . .
Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, . . .
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Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
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Oh Ive heard people refer to those people, but I don't read their commentary.
The scriptures are good for understanding.
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JLB
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JLB, regarding this part, which is obviously different:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation. . .
Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation . . .
There is a lot of debate on what constitutes the "Abomination of Desolation." Among the theories, some have claimed the mere presence of the Roman Armies the soil of the (then) holy city was the Abomination. Others claim the disgraceful actions of the three Jewish factions that were in a civil war with each other inside the city was the Abomination.
But whatever the abomination was, it was most likely something that Christ's people should be able to easily recognize, so they could quickly "get out of Dodge." I believe Jesus identified the Abomination in Luke 21:20 to those who needed the sign.
Dan
JLB, the following is why I believe the Olivet Discourses of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 were talking about the same thing. I will need some pretty solid evidence to the contrary to make me believe otherwise.
Dan
-------------------------
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation. . .
Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation . . .
-------------------------
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;. . .
Mark 13:14 . . . then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
-------------------------
Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! . . .
Mark 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matt 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
-------------------------
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Matt 24:30 . . . they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
-------------------------
Luke 21:29-30 And he spake to them a parable [of] the fig tree . . . know...that summer is now nigh. . .
Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. . . ye know that summer is near:
Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree. . . ye know that summer is nigh:
-------------------------
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, . . .
Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, . . .
Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, . . .
-------------------------
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
-------------------------
The first thing you need to understand is, these chapters are referring to the same place.
In 70 AD, the city and sanctuary are destroyed, and the destroyers [Romans] go home as conquering hero's.
Now look at the language of Zechariah -
3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God.' 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:3-6
"I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem.
Does this language sound like what happened in 70 AD?
JLB
I find it difficult to believe that you can't tell the difference between -
when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies...
Which is what happens when an army surrounds a cpital city and lays siege to it for months, cutting off all food and resources, before they attack,
and -
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation...
One phrase has to do with the physical destruction of the city of Jerusalem, and the other has to do with the spiritual defilement of the Temple area.
Two completely different sets of instructions for two completely different circumstances.
One being when the armies are surrounding the city, the other is when someone sets up an idol inside the holy place within the temple..
That is just for starters.
JLB
LOL! What you wrote just hit me.
I read my King James Version for about 40 years with no commentary, footnotes, concordance, ... nothing. I also did not attend church, so I did not have its influence. Also my wife and I have no cable TV for the past 16 years, and even before then I only watched things like the History Channel. I was so naive, when I first heard--this summer--about the "third temple," I had no clue what they were talking about.
I began to read commentaries around August, including Scofield's Notes, and they only reinforced my beliefs. I recommend them to anyone, once they obtain a good foundation in the scriptures.
Dan
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Wow! I completely misunderstood your earlier posts.
Actually it does. In the days of Christ, the Jews did not understand the Old Testament prophecies, and they do not to this very day; nor does anyone who interprets the Old Testament prophecies literally.
The Jews were the enemies of Christ and the Christians, not the Romans. There was some crazy emperor named Nero who became the enemy of the Christians late in his reign--approx. 67-68 AD time frame, maybe: but his time was brief. Generally, it was the Jews who were the terror to the Christians.
Assume the entire chapter of Zechariah is referring to New Jerusalem; and to Christ, the seed of Judah (Gal 3:16;) and to the apostles, the judges [or "governors"] of the twelve tribes (Mat 19:28;) and it makes a lot more sense.
John gave us the ultimate clue to understanding that chapter when he declared Zechariah 12:10 to be fulfilled.
"But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced [the Lord's] side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. . . For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled . . . They shall look on [the Lord] whom they pierced." (John 19:34-37)
It is written in Zechariah 12:10, "they shall look upon [the Lord] whom they have pierced."
Jerusalem's fate was already sealed by the time Jesus was crucified. Jerusalem was dead in the eyes of God, so much so that in the Revelation Jesus labeled it Sodom and Egypt--the ultimate rejection; and not once was it referred to by name.
Dan
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Are you saying that: when Jesus was on Mount Olives with his disciples, he told three very similar stories to them--changing details only slightly after the opening segment--then turns on a dime and reverts to two completely different time frames--one in 70 A.D., and one in the very distant future--by saying the exact same thing for all three stories?
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
I am not buying it, unless you can come up with a better argument than you have presented so far.
Thanks,
Dan
I believe I found the cause of spiritual defilement of the temple in A.D. 67-70. The abomination of desolation was most likely caused by the warring Jewish factions [the zealots] within the city. The Roman Army of Cestius Gallus arrived at Jerusalem in A.D. 66, but departed. That gave time for the Christians to flee to the mountains, as Jesus warned them to do. Between the time that Gallus left, and Titus arrived, the following abominations occurred within the city:
"10. And now, when the multitude were gotten together to an assembly, and every one was in indignation at these men's seizing upon the sanctuary, at their rapine and murders, but had not yet begun their attacks upon them, (the reason of which was this, that they imagined it to be a difficult thing to suppress these zealots, as indeed the case was,) Ananus stood in the midst of them, and casting his eyes frequently at the temple, and having a flood of tears in his eyes, he said, "Certainly it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places, that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these blood-shedding villains; '" [Josephus, The Wars Of The Jews, IV:3:10].
This was Josephus' summary of the wickedness of his generation of Jews. He also refers to the tribulation that occurred within the city:
"5. It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." [The Wars Of The Jews, V:10:5]
Dan
...nor does anyone who interprets the Old Testament prophecies literally.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." 22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." Matthew 1:21-23
Fulfilled Literally!
14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son." Matthew 2:14-15
Fulfilled Literally!
22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee. 23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew 2:22-23
Fulfilled Literally!
Most of the old testament prophecies were fulfilled literally.
First you say -
In the days of Christ, the Jews did not understand the Old Testament prophecies, and they do not to this very day; nor does anyone who interprets the Old Testament prophecies literally.
Then in the same breath you say that the piercing was a fulfillment of the prophecy from Zechariah????
I guess all that preterist commentary you study tends to get confusing at times.
John 19:34-37 was not a fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.
John 19:34, the piercing of Jesus was done, so that Zechariah 12:10 should be fulfilled when The Lord returns all of The inhabitants of Israel look upon Him.
It was the Jews that had Him crucified, and it was the Jews that had Him pierced.
Not the Romans, but the Jews.
4 Pilate then went out again, and said to them, "Behold, I am bringing Him out to you, that you may know that I find no fault in Him." 5 Then Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. And Pilate said to them, "Behold the Man!" 6 Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, "Crucify Him, crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him." 7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God." 8 Therefore, when Pilate heard that saying, he was the more afraid, 9 and went again into the Praetorian, and said to Jesus, "Where are You from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Then Pilate said to Him, "Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?" 11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:4-11
15 But they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!"
14 Then Pilate said to them, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they cried out all the more, "Crucify Him!" Mark 15:14
21 The governor answered and said to them, "Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" They said, "Barabbas!" 22 Pilate said to them, "What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all said to him, "Let Him be crucified!" 23 Then the governor said, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they cried out all the more, saying, "Let Him be crucified!" 24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it."
25 And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children." Matthew 27:21-25
And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children."
JLB
Deborah13
Member
What is righteous and holy before God cannot be defiled by something from the outside. Defilement is within and can only affect holiness by something that comes from within.
ie. If one is raped, they themselves are not defiled in their holiness. But if they willfully participate in an unholy act through desire, then they are defiled within.
Can a thief stealing from you make you a thief?
The forced invasion of an unholy army could not defile what is holy to God.
God told the Jews through Haggai, for one, that if they would return to Him He would dwell with them again in the rebuilt temple (second temple) and He did. It, once again, was their corruption that brought about the defilement of the temple.
As you say, there were groups that were striving for power among the Jews themselves and they took their eyes off the commandments to love one another (written in Torah) and became enemies living in the same camp and defiling it. We, as Christians, need to take care that we do not do the same thing.
JLB,
I didn't say it. JOHN SAID IT! John said the prophecy was fulfilled, not me! My words mean nothing!
I would have to believe "this" means "that" and "you" means "them" in Matthew 24:34, before I could believe John did not mean what he said; and that ain't gonna happen.
You really like to throw around the Preterist label, as if it is a bad thing. Frankly, I appreciate you labeling me a Preterist. Now that I know what it means, I am very happy with that label. As long as you do not label me a futurist or a dispensationalist, I will most likely be okay with it.
Speaking of labels: JLB, whoever taught you most likely learned their interpretation method from Darby, or his protege Scofield. Scofield's notes match your beliefs almost exactly on misinterpretation of Zechariah 12 and Daniel 9; and on the mystical and magical "third earthly temple" that is not found anywhere in the scripture. These are excerpts of Scofields notes for Zechariah 12 through 14, and 12:10 specifically, beginning with his first note found in Zechariah 12:1:
Zech [chapters] 12-14 "from one prophecy the general theme of which is the return of the Lord and the establishment of the kingdom. The order is:"
. . .
"not merely as the glorious Deliverer, but as the One whom Israel pierced and has long rejected (Zech 12:10)"
That is what you say you believe, exactly.
Scofield made up that interpretation for Zech 12:10 out of thin air; and he was only able to get away with it for so long by his misdirection in the first note. But people are getting wise to him now that we have the internet and great search tools, and don't have to rely so much on interpretation by our ministers (most of whom are trained using the Scofield Bible, anyway.)
These are Scofield's notes from John 19:34-37:
" "
Crystal clear!
How do you know they were fulfilled? You don't believe the plain words of John 19:34-37 over the cryptic words of Zechariah 12:10? Why would you believe those you listed?
Besides, the few you quoted were insufficient to convince the power-mad Jewish leadership who wanted an earthly kingdom. Recall, they killed the prophets before they killed Christ when the prophets explained to them their future punishment if they did not clean up their act.
JLB, almost none were literal. In other cases they were very cryptic, such as:
[This was in reference to the fulfillment of Amos 9:11 when Cornelius, the Gentile, was converted]
"And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."
[This was the fulfillment of raising Jesus to the Throne of David, forever. Recall: "I go to my Father and ye see me no more." (John 16:10)]
"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."
"Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
"smite the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered"
"In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not."
"The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up."
""Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses."
"And he was numbered with the transgressors."
"The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes"
"That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."
"My kingdom is not of this world."
"Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt."
[Note: Jesus did not come to be King of the Jews. His kingdom is "not of this world." Sion is a heavenly place, where His kingdom is established forever (Hebrews 12:22-24). Therefore, there is no contradiction.]
Others may as well have been cryptic:
"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."
"And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
"My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
"The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up."
Thanks,
Dan
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And that is exactly what Josephus said occurred in the temple.
Wow! After all these years I could never quite put it together. And to think that Josephus could have been killed or imprisoned by the Romans, rather than become an eyewitness to these events, if he had not accurately prophesied Vespasian's destiny. It appears God wanted him around to record the event.
Dan
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Deborah, I want to make sure we are on the same page. Is this the way you interpreted what I wrote?
Jesus said desolation would be near when Jerusalem was compassed with armies:
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." (Luke 21:20)
But the presence of the Armies was a sign of, not the cause of, the desolation. Many historians have implied the cause was the army on the holy soil; but the cause was actually the spiritual defilement of the temple, as Josephus wrote about:
"Ananus stood in the midst of them, and casting his eyes frequently at the temple, and having a flood of tears in his eyes, he said, "Certainly it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places, that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these blood-shedding villains; '"
Those abominations were the "abomination of desolation," that Jesus referred to:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation . . ." (Matt 24:15)
And they resulted in the desolation of the city and temple.
Another point: I believe there were over 2 million people in the city at that time (if I understand Josephus correctly,) and it is doubtful all were aware of the arrival and departure of the Roman Army. But those inside the city may have known about the abominations that occurred in the temple. I would think the word of something that horrific to Jews would have spread like wildfire.
Therefore, as Jesus said, both were signs for the Christians to flee to the mountains: 1) the first arrival of the Roman Army, and 2) the defilement of the temple (abomination of desolation.)
I have read that no Christians were killed in Jerusalem during the Roman siege and assault. I am unsure how they know that.
Dan
I am saying Matthew and Mark are the Olivet Discourse, While Luke was His teaching given in the Temple area.
JLB
Deborah13
Member
Dan00
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
The cause:
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:13 is what I see as their offenses were in a nutshell. They killed the prophets that told of this day when the Messiah would come. They would see Christ crucified, kill all those they could Stephen, etc., they burdened their people with rules that God never intended. In all ways keeping their people from entering in. Liars, snakes. vipers.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
I am not sure what this abomination was it reads a little differently from Luke and watching for the armies.
The word abomination is of something detestable, especially idolatry. The word in the Greek translated as "stand" does not necessarily mean stand in the context we would say " we saw him stand up". http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2476&t=KJV
But I do know that nothing pagan armies could do, could defile God's house or God's people unless they willingly in their hearts allowed it.
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
If we didn't know that Jesus was speaking here of the temple, we would think He was speaking of their own home or dwelling. He didn't say God's house will be left to you desolate. So I wonder if even at that point, if the temple was still God's dwelling place, at all? I don't know. But surely when the veil was torn in two, that was the end.
We also know that the destruction of the city and the temple was already determined (decreed).
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
The cause:
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:13 is what I see as their offenses were in a nutshell. They killed the prophets that told of this day when the Messiah would come. They would see Christ crucified, kill all those they could Stephen, etc., they burdened their people with rules that God never intended. In all ways keeping their people from entering in. Liars, snakes. vipers.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
I am not sure what this abomination was it reads a little differently from Luke and watching for the armies.
The word abomination is of something detestable, especially idolatry. The word in the Greek translated as "stand" does not necessarily mean stand in the context we would say " we saw him stand up". http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2476&t=KJV
But I do know that nothing pagan armies could do, could defile God's house or God's people unless they willingly in their hearts allowed it.
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
If we didn't know that Jesus was speaking here of the temple, we would think He was speaking of their own home or dwelling. He didn't say God's house will be left to you desolate. So I wonder if even at that point, if the temple was still God's dwelling place, at all? I don't know. But surely when the veil was torn in two, that was the end.
We also know that the destruction of the city and the temple was already determined (decreed).
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