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Revelation 20:12
The books were opened (books dealing with our life). Could deal with a position in hell / heaven (?) etc.

Revelation 20:15
The book of life (lambs book of life) was opened.
This book is about what Jesus Christ accomplished. IMHO.
You are written in this book when you trust in His life for your righteousness.
If you go back to trusting in the law for righteousness, or go after other gods; our name can be blotted out of this book.

Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus (the Messiah) has the ability to save for eternity. The Law has temporal benefits in life (no eternal life).

Redneck from Mississippi. What could I know. There is one name under heaven for eternal salvation ( I do not think it is John, Charley, eddif or any other name.

eddif
 
Revelation 20:12
The books were opened (books dealing with our life). Could deal with a position in hell / heaven (?) etc.

Revelation 20:15
The book of life (lambs book of life) was opened.
This book is about what Jesus Christ accomplished. IMHO.
You are written in this book when you trust in His life for your righteousness.
If you go back to trusting in the law for righteousness, or go after other gods; our name can be blotted out of this book.

Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus (the Messiah) has the ability to save for eternity. The Law has temporal benefits in life (no eternal life).

Redneck from Mississippi. What could I know. There is one name under heaven for eternal salvation ( I do not think it is John, Charley, eddif or any other name.

eddif

I have to tell you mate that being a "redneck" doesn't lessen anyones understanding of the scriptures. Time spent in the Bible + diligently seeking Yahew = higher understanding imo. I know brilliant, intelligent people, ( by worldly standards ) who are bumbling fools with the scriptures.
 
Revelation 20:12
The books were opened (books dealing with our life). Could deal with a position in hell / heaven (?) etc.

Revelation 20:15
The book of life (lambs book of life) was opened.
This book is about what Jesus Christ accomplished. IMHO.
You are written in this book when you trust in His life for your righteousness.
If you go back to trusting in the law for righteousness, or go after other gods; our name can be blotted out of this book.

Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus (the Messiah) has the ability to save for eternity. The Law has temporal benefits in life (no eternal life).

Redneck from Mississippi. What could I know. There is one name under heaven for eternal salvation ( I do not think it is John, Charley, eddif or any other name.

eddif
after reading this post again are you suggesting the Lamb's Book of Life is different from the Books containing our deeds ?
 
Hi Allen,

Forever may not be the correct interpretation. Comparing different translations revealed there is some question about this. Look at other versions and check how they translate the passage. Here is Young's literal translation.

YLT Psalm 23:6 Only -- goodness and kindness pursue me, All the days of my life, And my dwelling is in the house of Jehovah, For a length of days! (Psa 23:6 YLT)

NET Psalm 23:6 Surely your goodness and faithfulness6 will pursue7 me all my days,8 and I will live in9 the LORD's house10 for the rest of my life.11 (Psa 23:6 NET)

CJB Psalm 23:6 Goodness and grace will pursue me every day of my life; and I will live in the house of ADONAI for years and years to come. (Psa 23:6 CJB)

KJV Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. {for ever: Heb. to length of days}
(Psa 23:6 KJV)

LXE Psalm 23:5 {022:5} Thou has prepared a table before me in presence of them that afflict me: thou hast thoroughly anointed my head with oil; and thy cup cheers me like the best wine. 6 {022:6} Thy mercy also shall follow me all the days of my life: and my dwelling shall be in the house of the Lord for a very long time. (Psa 23:5 LXE)
I'm glad you brought this up Butch.
All the days of my life may very well be speaking of this life and not all eternity.
Maybe not.
One has to ask, was David speaking or was the Holy Spirit speaking through him?
David knew that nothing can separate us from the love of God and that this would continue to the end.
David was removed from worshiping God in his temple and now was able to do that again.
That is in the physical sense.
But were David's words, spoken through the Holy Spirit. speaking even further in a spiritual sense?
Whether physical or spiritual, how would he know he would dwell in the House of the Lord all his days or forever?
Anything could have happened to have changed that?
David knew because the Holy Spirit was speaking through him, just as the Holy Spirit speaks through us.
Our bodies are the temple of God.
Can we say that we will dwell in the House of the Lord all our days?
Since Jesus says he will never leave us or forsake us, can we also say that we will dwell in the House of the Lord forever?

If we can walk away from God, we can't say either of these things, nor could David.
 
after reading this post again are you suggesting the Lamb's Book of Life is different from the Books containing our deeds ?
Yes
Click o the Revelation 20:12 and read another book.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Books and then another book.

eddif
 
Yes
Click o the Revelation 20:12 and read another book.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Books and then another book.

eddif

Yeah sure I agree. Please show me in the OT wher this "other book" is. Or show me who you are if that's preferable :biggrin
 
Yeah I agree the unmerciful servant will be headed for the LoF. Do you have a scripture which shows us such a person; I mean if this is something that can happen to a true believer I suggest we would have an example.
Who's lives besides the apostles were followed and recorded in our Bibles for any real length of time that we can see what they eventually did or didn't do with their faith in Christ? Even in Jesus' time many embraced him and then turned against him in the end but I don't recall off the top of my head any names being named who did that. The point is, we know it happened. It wasn't necessary to name names to somehow validate the truth of that happening. We accept that the Bible simply says it happened.

These people who leave the straight path are spoken about in an overall general sense . What I see in the Bible are warnings to not let it happen to you, and what will happen if you do, and to avoid those who have. Why is this plain language of the Bible not good enough? I don't get it.
 
Who's lives besides the apostles were followed and recorded in our Bibles for any real length of time that we can see what they eventually did or didn't do with their faith in Christ? Even in Jesus' time many embraced him and then turned against him in the end but I don't recall off the top of my head any names being named who did that. The point is, we know it happened. It wasn't necessary to name names to somehow validate the truth of that happening. We accept that the Bible simply says it happened.

These people who leave the straight path are spoken about in an overall general sense . What I see in the Bible are warnings to not let it happen to you, and what will happen if you do, and to avoid those who have. Why is this plain language of the Bible not good enough? I don't get it.

The OT is 39 books the NT is 27 books. Why do you see warnings instead of admonitions ?
 
I find it very difficult to link this unmerciful servant parable (Matt 18) with that of salvation?
And that does not surprise me. Somewhere along the line salvation became so utterly of God in the church that we forgot that the free gift of justification is secured through the forgiveness of one's sins for the asking, but instead through this strange but amazing gift that suddenly appeared on our front door step one day and there's no way to not accept it, or return it. You've been picked to receive it completely and utterly apart from any input from you whatsoever and now your stuck with it.

But anyway, the parable is about forgiveness. Justification and salvation are contingent on forgiveness--God forgiving you, and you not showing contempt or indifference and lack of trust and appreciation in that forgiveness by failing to offer that same forgiveness to others. So it most certainly is a parable about salvation.


This man was (present tense) a servant of the King.
Everyone in this present earthly kingdom of God is a servant of the King. But many simply do not live up to the responsibility that comes with having your sins forgiven for free and apart from the merit of your own goodness to secure it.

Do you suggest that we get saved and then have to settle our accounts with our Saviour King...
The Bible is very clear that EVERYONE will give an account of himself to God for what he did, whether good or bad, at the Judgment.


...and if we cannot settle the account, we (and our family) are then in danger of being sold?
Remember, it's a parable. He's speaking in the vernacular of the day. Why you had a DEBT YOU COULDN'T PAY your family was seized to help pay the debt. That's the point--the debt you owe is one that you simply can not pay yourself. That's how the debt of sin is for us. It's simply too big for us to pay ourselves. The literal elements of the parable illustrate this fact.


Do you believe that this debt (for the purpose of salvation) can ever be repaid as Jesus said?
Yes. See what I just wrote above.

edit: Sorry, my vision is failing. I saw 'never be paid', lol. So, 'no', the debt can never be paid. It has to be forgiven, or else it remains to be paid in full.


These torturers, who do you think they me be?
Again, remember, this is a parable. I don't think there are literal torturers in the place of torment. The point is, the place where those who can't pay their own debt of sin, and forfeit God's gracious gift of payment of their sins for them through their contempt and/or indifference to that gift, will go to a tortorous place where there will be the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'. And since the debt you owe is bigger than what you can pay--but which must be paid before you can get out--you will never leave that place of suffering. It is a final judgment.


Perhaps the following teaching gives us a bit more insight into the expected duties and responsibilities that receiving God's gracious free gift of forgiveness, and then becoming a servant of the King has attached to it, and the result of not acting on those duties and responsibilities:

"35 "Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit. 36 "Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. 37 "Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them. 38 "Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves. 39 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 40 "You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect." 41 Peter said, "Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?"42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves , both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. " (Luke 12:35-46 NAS)

Many probably see this as a works salvation and, therefore, twist it's meaning to divorce it from that understanding. But it is a works salvation only in the sense that the free gift of justification (having your sin debt removed for free) does have an expected and obligatory outcome attached to it.

We are expected to give the goods of the Master's household that have been placed in our care--because we have now been made servants in his household--out to our fellow servants (think forgiveness, mercy, long suffering, helps, etc., but especially forgiveness). The day is coming when we will give an account of the stewardship of these things that have been entrusted to us. And if we have been found abusing others instead of feeding and caring for them with these things that we have been given charge over we will lose our place of service in the kingdom of God and assigned a place with the unbelievers (not spanked and sent on into the kingdom with a bruised bottom as some insist).

The parable of the shrewd manager (Luke 16:1-12 NAS) is another teaching of how we are given the responsibility to forgive others the debt of sin they owe the Master we work for in order for we ourselves to be commended by the Master and have the assurance of a secure future when we exit the abode of these bodies we live in now.
 
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We are managers of God's goodness--his wealth. If we are found to be wicked and slothful servants of the wealth that has been entrusted to us as believers, we will not inherit the kingdom. Plain and simple.
 
I'm glad you brought this up Butch.
All the days of my life may very well be speaking of this life and not all eternity.
Maybe not.
One has to ask, was David speaking or was the Holy Spirit speaking through him?
David knew that nothing can separate us from the love of God and that this would continue to the end.
David was removed from worshiping God in his temple and now was able to do that again.
That is in the physical sense.
But were David's words, spoken through the Holy Spirit. speaking even further in a spiritual sense?
Whether physical or spiritual, how would he know he would dwell in the House of the Lord all his days or forever?
Anything could have happened to have changed that?
David knew because the Holy Spirit was speaking through him, just as the Holy Spirit speaks through us.
Our bodies are the temple of God.
Can we say that we will dwell in the House of the Lord all our days?
Since Jesus says he will never leave us or forsake us, can we also say that we will dwell in the House of the Lord forever?

If we can walk away from God, we can't say either of these things, nor could David.

Hi Allen,

We're on opposite sides of this issue, but I didn't post that to initiate a discussion I just wanted to point out the word "forever." I think translators use this word much to freely and it causes a lot of confusion among Christians. I really wish they stick more closely to an accurate rendering of these words.
 
Your words are a far cry from the truth.
Psalm 23:6 NIV
"...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
This is Scripture, God's word.
It is 100% true.
It doesn't say only if you keep your faith.
What it says is a fact.
We know from the whole counsel of the Bible that faith, and a continuing faith, is what makes it a fact. David has this faith.


If David lost his faith after he wrote this verse, then it would no longer be true if he were to lose his salvation.
Bingo!

What you're saying is that Davids' faith decides whether God's word is true or not.
No, that's not what I'm saying. What the Bible teaches is that the application of the truth of God's word is contingent on your faith. It doesn't become untrue just because someone doesn't have faith. It becomes inapplicable to the person who doesn't have faith. Just as the promises of God become applicable to the person who does have faith, and continues in that faith to the end.


God doesn't need Davids' faith to decide whether his word is true or not.
It is true, period, regardless of what David does.
Right on. And faith is how that truth gets applied. No faith, no application of God's truth.

So I'll go back to my original question, "How did David know the end result if OSAS is not true?
Because he had faith. The end result is guaranteed and iron clad for the person who has faith. Everyone who has faith has the promise and guarantee of the eternal everlasting kingdom. Lose that faith and you no longer have the guarantee of the eternal and everlasting kingdom that can never be shaken or removed.
 
Allen, think about it this way.

If I have a winning lotto ticket I surely have everything promised to the one who possesses that winning ticket. Nothing can take that away from you, except if you lose the ticket.

So it is in the kingdom of God. Like a winning lotto ticket, you have to have that which secures what is promised right up to the day it is to be redeemed. It's impossible to redeem a ticket for lotto winnings you once had, but no longer have in your possession on the day it is to be redeemed.

Faith is the winning lotto ticket, so to speak, that we have now that ensures the payment that ticket promises on the Day of Redemption. No faith, no payout. It's unreasonable, even unfair, to think insisting you once had it is good enough to receive the payout. But many will do that. Their lack of good works and proper stewardship of God's goodness, and their record of unforgiven abuses toward others, will prove that they presently do not have the required faith--the winning ticket--to collect on the prize.
 
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We know from the whole counsel of the Bible that faith, and a continuing faith, is what makes it a fact. David has this faith.



Bingo!


No, that's not what I'm saying. What the Bible teaches is that the application of the truth of God's word is contingent on your faith. It doesn't become untrue just because someone doesn't have faith. It becomes inapplicable to the person who doesn't have faith. Just as the promises of God become applicable to the person who does have faith, and continues in that faith to the end.



Right on. And faith is how that truth gets applied. No faith, no application of God's truth.


Because he had faith. The end result is guaranteed and iron clad for the person who has faith. Everyone who has faith has the promise and guarantee of the eternal everlasting kingdom. Lose that faith and you no longer have the guarantee of the eternal and everlasting kingdom that can never be shaken or removed.
So you are saying OSAS is true.
I agree.
 
Allen, think about it this way.

If I have a winning lotto ticket I surely have everything promised to the one who possesses that winning ticket. Nothing can take that away from you, except if you lose the ticket.

So it is in the kingdom of God. Like a winning lotto ticket, you have to have that which secures what is promised right up to the day it is to be redeemed. It's impossible to redeem a ticket for lotto winnings you once had, but no longer have in your possession on the day it is to be redeemed.

Faith is the winning lotto ticket, so to speak, that we have now that ensures the payment that ticket promises on the Day of Redemption. No faith, no payout. It's unreasonable, even unfair, to think insisting you once had it is good enough to receive the payout. But many will do that. Their lack of works will prove that they do not have the required faith--the winning ticket--to collect on the prize.
I, too, have a scenario.
In Romans 1;1-15, Paul calls himself a slave of Christ and tells us we are also.
1 Peter 2;16, Peter calls himself a slave of Christ.
Ephesians 6:6 says we are slaves of Christ.
1 Corinthians 7;22-23 says when we were free we were called to be slaves of Christ.

So, are we slaves of Christ?
Are you a slave of Christ?
How do we walk away from slavery?
Jesus tells of the 100 lambs, one goes astray and he goes after it and brings it back.

We can walk away from Christ all we want, but if we belong to him, he will bring us back.
 
So you are saying OSAS is true.
I agree.
Salvation is guaranteed as long as you have faith.

For OSAS to be true, it has to be proven that one can not lose their faith (lose the winning lotto ticket). What I see in the Bible are several warning to not lose your faith so that you will not lose what faith secures. That tells me it's possible to lose your faith. Why warn the flock about something that simply can not happen?

The sad part about the OSAS argument is much time and energy is spent making vague and disputable passages mean you can't lose your salvation while ignoring the plain ones that warn us not to. But I know that's how indoctrinations work. My hope is that others, like myself, will see how these indoctrinations work and begin to read the Bible without the glasses of popular indoctrinations presently wrapped on the eyes of this end-time kingdom of God--a 2000 year old earthly kingdom of God puffed up with the ever increasing leaven of false teaching (that's how leaven works--it works it's way through the dough more and more as time goes by until it has worked it's way all the way through. We were warned.).
 
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Salvation is guaranteed as long as you have faith.

For OSAS to be true, it has to be proven that one can not lose their faith (the winning lotto ticket). What I see in the Bible are several warning to not lose your faith so that you will not lose what faith secures. That tells me it's possible to lose your faith. Why warn the flock about something that simply can not happen?

The sad part about the OSAS argument is much time and energy is spent making vague and disputable passages mean you can't lose your salvation while ignoring the plain ones that warn us not to. But I know that's how indoctrinations work. My hope is that others, like myself, will see how these indoctrinations work and begin to read the Bible without the glasses of popular indoctrinations presently wrapped on the eyes of this end-time kingdom of God--a 2000 year old earthly kingdom of God puffed up with the ever increasing leaven of false teaching (that's how leaven works--it works it's way through the dough more and more as time goes by until it has worked it's way all the way through. We were warned.).
I still don't see anyone in the Bible that you can truly say was saved that lost their salvation.
 
I, too, have a scenario.
In Romans 1;1-15, Paul calls himself a slave of Christ and tells us we are also.
1 Peter 2;16, Peter calls himself a slave of Christ.
Ephesians 6:6 says we are slaves of Christ.
1 Corinthians 7;22-23 says when we were free we were called to be slaves of Christ.

So, are we slaves of Christ?
Are you a slave of Christ?
How do we walk away from slavery?
Have you read my lengthy post from this morning?

Jesus teaches that we lose the privilege of our service in the kingdom of God. It is taken away from us.



Jesus tells of the 100 lambs, one goes astray and he goes after it and brings it back.
His plea goes out to the world. No question about it.

We can walk away from Christ all we want, but if we belong to him, he will bring us back.
I believe he probably will try.

Don't forget that the prodigal son was NOT chased down by his loving Father. So don't be surprised when you notice your Father, the one who gave you birth, is not shadowing your every move, but instead let's you serve in the pig pen of the world to see if you'll come to your senses and repent and come home. Balance, allen baby, balance. We are to rightly divide the Word of God, not lift parts of it out of the context of ALL that the Bible teaches.
 
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