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Sinthesis said:
One should never underestimate the contorted positions some will adopt to cling to their own eschatological idols. Thank God eschatology is not salvational (for our generation).:wink
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Amen Brother, I couldn't agree more.

Wait, I could agree more.

One should never underestimate the contorted UNSCRIPTURAL positions some will adopt to cling to their own eschatological idols.

Emphasis mine! :biggrin2


JLB
 
Willie T said:
Since we are speaking of a nation of people who are way too familiar with very modern and technical warfare and horribly destructive missiles coming in to wreak havoc at all hours, and planted bombs going off in crowed city districts on a regular basis, killing their friends and families........ I doubt very much that they have some sort of "different mindset" about these things. No, it's highly unlikely that they would "keep watch" from their rooftops for an invading army to march on their city to encircle it.

No. not at all. An army dumb enough to try that would immediately face the swift and effective retaliation of Israel's own very formidable military tanks and jets and rocket batteries.

The things Jesus warned the Christians would happen in AD 70, was just what he spoke of....and just what happened... a marching Roman army with a few hundred horses.

A Jew today KNOWS what Jesus' words meant... though the Jews in olden times didn't heed them. They clearly have their history to show them what happened in 70 AD to effectively end the age of Judaism as the pervision it had become in those days.
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correct, the modern jews do see that tish ma'bav was a judgement but not as we see it. they view that as from the Heshem for failing to do torah.
 
Deborah13 said:
Young's Literal Translation
Mat 16:28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'
Mat 10:23 `And whenever they may persecute you in this city, flee to the other, for verily I say to you, ye may not have completed the cities of Israel till the Son of Man may come.

Mar 13:24 `But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 and the stars of the heaven shall be falling , and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 `And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in clouds with much power and glory,

Joseph's dream, who are the sun, moon, and stars? The family of Jacob (Israel).
Gen 37:9 And he dreameth yet another dream, and recounteth it to his brethren, and saith, `Lo, I have dreamed a dream again, and lo, the sun and the moon, and eleven stars, are bowing themselves to me.'
Gen 37:10 And he recounteth unto his father, and unto his brethren; and his father pusheth against him, and saith to him, `What is this dream which thou hast dreamt? do we certainly come--I, and thy mother, and thy brethren--to bow ourselves to thee, to the earth?'

Dan 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.

Who are Daniel's people? The Jews, the nation of Israel. How do they escape? Jesus told them what to do.
Mat 24:16 then those in Judea--let them flee to the mounts;
Luk 21:21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

Luk 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all things that have been written.
Mat 23:37 `Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.
Mat 23:38 Lo, left desolate to you is your house;

Note; Some people think that Daniel 12, is in relationship to the whole world, and this could be.
I should probably have quote Daniel 9 which is more directly related to Matt. 24.
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I have corrupted thee with the truth my disciple , I remember when you were on the other side and I was pointing you toward this. glad at least you went and lookd and you saw genesis's joseph and pointed it to revelation and taught me something. I did think it had a link when I liked your post earlier but its clearly visible.
 
Willie T said:
Maybe not in your Oliver Discourse, but He certainly did in the Olivet Discourse. But, theological-sounding names for the Sermon on The Mt, aside, what do you think He was talking about?
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Please write out the scripture from the sermon on the mount of Olives where Jesus referred to the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

If you have...

JLB
 
Willie T said:
Post #118
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I have to assume you are just having some odd sort of fun..... The very first verse in Matthew 24 has Jesus stating that not one stone in that temple they are looking at will be left on top of another. Now where was this temple they were looking at? And what year was it?

That, alone (if you never even looked at all the rest of the verses) should let you know that He was talking about that specific building.
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No scripture here!


Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:1


JLB
 
It IS interesting how some of us jockey the scriptures around because of what some "experts say" but what i find more interesting is by doing so they are fulfilling our saviours words from the same chapter..

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

tob
 
turnorburn said:
It IS interesting how some of us jockey the scriptures around because of what some "experts say" but what i find more interesting is by doing so they are fulfilling our saviours words from the same chapter..

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

tob
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:amen
 
JLB said:
No scripture here!


Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:1


JLB
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I could be very wrong, but I'll assume you have more on the ball than your remark demonstrates. Now, go to my Post #118, like I said, and click on Matthew 24. You will see where, starting right there at the beginning of the chapter, Jesus tells His disciples that no stone will be left on another in that very temple they are standing there, talking about.

Other than this help, I don't know how to show you how to read the Bible. You have to learn that on your own, I guess........ the chapter keeps right on going with Jesus telling His disciples what to watch for.

HINT: Those men He is talking to aren't going to be watching for ANYTHING if they have already been dead for 2,000 years.
 
Willie T said:
I could be very wrong, but I'll assume you have more on the ball than your remark demonstrates. Now, go to my Post #118, like I said, and click on Matthew 24. You will see where, starting right there at the beginning of the chapter, Jesus tells His disciples that no stone will be left on another in that very temple they are standing there, talking about.

Other than this help, I don't know how to show you how to read the Bible. You have to learn that on your own, I guess........ the chapter keeps right on going with Jesus telling His disciples what to watch for.

HINT: Those men He is talking to aren't going to be watching for ANYTHING if they have already been dead for 2,000 years.
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Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Matthew 24:1-2

Let's establish the setting and context -

Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "
Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Matthew 23:33-24:1-2

Jesus spoke these words in the hearing of all.


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matthew 24:3

The Olivet Discourse is the teaching from the mount of Olives privately with His Disciples!

What Jesus teaches His Disciples and what Jesus teaches the Pharisee's and what Jesus says to the multitudes are different.


Olivet Discourse - Matthew 24:4 - 25:46



JLB

 
This is not directed at any one member or any side of the 'preterism debate.

I dont understand why other believers who happen to be at a different place in the Lord are treated like the enemy. If we are not willing to to treat each other as brothers/sisters in the Lord because He has asked us too.. then please do so because each of us has agree to the TOS of this site... here is a segment that has bearing on this post...

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

My view or understanding of this topic started changing a number of years ago.... I am not more saved today than yesteryear. I am thankful for the understanding i have for what i believe the Scriptures have taught me... one of the lessons to be learned .....

Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
1Co_13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
 
You're right. If someone is going to learn, then they have to do it at their rate.
 
Willie T said:
You're right. If someone is going to learn, then they have to do it at their rate.
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I was where the others are and reba, hitch and stormcrow tried to convince. in me zealously to defend my futurist position I learned that it wasn't so solid. thus its why I changed. I asked god to show me.
 
jasonc said:
I was where the others are and reba, hitch and stormcrow tried to convince. in me zealously to defend my futurist position I learned that it wasn't so solid. thus its why I changed. I asked god to show me.
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Do you believe Jesus physically returned in 70 AD and the Resurrection is past?

The Resurrection is always called just that: The Resurrection.

If anyone wants to know the truth, it's right here in the Word.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

Those who are Christ's...

In Christ ALL shall be made alive...


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

These scriptures are all anyone should need to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

THE Resurrection.

One Resurrection for His people at His Coming, at the end of the age on the last Day.


JLB
 
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JLB said:
Do you believe Jesus physically returned in 70 AD and the Resurrection is past?

The Resurrection is always called just that: The Resurrection.

If anyone wants to know the truth, it's right here in the Word.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

Those who are Christ's...

In Christ ALL shall be made alive...


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

These scriptures are all anyone should need to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

THE Resurrection.

One Resurrection for His people at His Coming, at the end of the age on the last Day.


JLB
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for the thousandth time. context, context, if some standing here doesn't mean just that it would mere jibberish. I never said all the prophetic word are fulfilled , I like willie T have served I have been to war. haji has roof time homes they sit on top of them and use the sun to dry clothes if need be, so why would YOU stand on the roof while im firing rockets at YOU and bullets from my trust m-4 carbine. makes no sense doesn't it? you would be on the ground, behind the wall, and also inside a building taking cover. willie T is right. shabat? really so tell me when isreal is attacked today by the hamas. they have a shabat break for the idf? really? we have Hebrews in our services, they don't get the day for shabat and NEITHER DOES the idf. war first, then their faith.
 
jasonc said:
if matthew 24 is to happen again then isreal is decimated and most jews are a taken as slaves.
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Just Half Brother.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

It's all there!

Surrounding of Jerusalem with the armies.

The Coming of The Lord with His saints.

Matthew 24 Brother!

You got the city right Jerusalem.

Wrong Century.

Half right!


JLB
 
jasonc said:
for the thousandth time. context, context, if some standing here doesn't mean just that it would mere jibberish. I never said all the prophetic word are fulfilled , I like willie T have served I have been to war. haji has roof time homes they sit on top of them and use the sun to dry clothes if need be, so why would YOU stand on the roof while im firing rockets at YOU and bullets from my trust m-4 carbine. makes no sense doesn't it? you would be on the ground, behind the wall, and also inside a building taking cover. willie T is right. shabat? really so tell me when isreal is attacked today by the hamas. they have a shabat break for the idf? really? we have Hebrews in our services, they don't get the day for shabat and NEITHER DOES the idf. war first, then their faith.
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When the Temple is standing during the 70th week, the Jews will enforce more than the Sabbath!

JLB
 
reba said:
JLB What do you think they will enforce? How many years will it take them to build a temple...
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The Temple Institute, in an Interview stated; with Today's technology less than 3 1/2 years.


JLB
 
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