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SOUL SLEEP - TRUE/FALSE

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OzSpen said:
So do I believe what it says and the points are that at death:
  1. Both the unbeliever and believer are having a conscious experience;
  2. They are not asleep.
  3. The believer is in Abraham's bosom;
  4. The unbeliever is in Hades;
  5. The unbeliever is experiencing torment in Hades.
  6. There is no soul sleep here.
So you quote a section of Scripture to try to support your doctrine of soul sleep, but it doesn't teach that at all.
Click to expand...


This is scripture -

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.


This is not -

  1. Both the unbeliever and believer are having a conscious experience;
  2. They are not asleep.
  3. The believer is in Abraham's bosom;
  4. The unbeliever is in Hades;
  5. The unbeliever is experiencing torment in Hades.
  6. There is no soul sleep here.

If I was a person who did believe in soul sleep, I would point to # 3, #4, and #5, and ask where does the word unbeliever and believer occur in this scripture?

You would then reply with more of your opinion, and I would have successfully brought doubt to your post because of your opinion.

Others who read this exchange would doubt your position because of your use of your opinion.


I hope this simple lesson was helpful to you, and that you would consider this the next time you "explain" what an assertion is.


JLB
 
JLB said:
This is scripture -

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.


This is not -

  1. Both the unbeliever and believer are having a conscious experience;
  2. They are not asleep.
  3. The believer is in Abraham's bosom;
  4. The unbeliever is in Hades;
  5. The unbeliever is experiencing torment in Hades.
  6. There is no soul sleep here.

JLB
Click to expand...

Actually OzSpen was using a form of systematic theology, based upon that section of Scripture you cited..

While I cannot speak directly for him, I can say that through hos posts on this forum, OzSpen said that he does not believe in soul sleep.

Does that clarify things for you?
 
By Grace said:
Actually OzSpen was using a form of systematic theology, based upon that section of Scripture you cited..

While I cannot speak directly for him, I can say that through hos posts on this forum, OzSpen said that he does not believe in soul sleep.

Does that clarify things for you?
Click to expand...


No, It doesn't clarify anything at all.

I read his post, and it was clear, when I read his post that he doesn't believe in soul sleep.

So your post isn't anymore clear than his.


If you go back and read our post's, you will see why I responded this way.

Thanks for your input.


JLB
 
follower said:
:) :couch ................. :) sorry, forgot to label the couch "for the tired soul"
.
.
.
remember who and how many times Yeshua said don't worry , they are asleep. (not dead). that is just so plain and simple !
Click to expand...

:bricks
 
follower said:
:) :couch ................. :) sorry, forgot to label the couch "for the tired soul"
.
.
.
remember who and how many times Yeshua said don't worry , they are asleep. (not dead). that is just so plain and simple !
Click to expand...


Let's check the survey.

And the survey says -

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; Matthew 27:51-52


Sorry Brother,

There was just a pile of bricks behind door number 3.


The BODIES of the saints who had fallen asleep.

It is the body that sleeps in the dust of the earth, and not the soul.


JLB
 
really?! sorry, check some other english rules, guides/ translations. whether or not you are close or far off i don't know.
people regularly say "the people died" , not "the bodies died".
likewise "the people slept" , not "the bodies slept".

same with what you quoted - "the saints who had fallen asleep"
not "the bodies who had fallen asleep"

Or, if you go in the bedroom and fall asleep or fall asleep on the couch, no one says your body fell asleep. they say you fell asleep.


as in below also --- "God's people [the saints] who had -died [L fallen asleep]"
not their bodies had fallen asleep. they did. plain english grandma //// er.... grammar... :couch

this carries on in accordance with all of Scripture without contradiction.(paradox sometimes, Yhvh is Pleased!)


Matthew 27:52Expanded Bible (EXB)

52 The graves opened, and many [L of the bodies] of ·God’s people [the saints] who had ·died [L fallen asleep] were raised from the dead.
 
follower said:
really?! sorry, check some other english rules, guides/ translations. whether or not you are close or far off i don't know.
people regularly say "the people died" , not "the bodies died".
likewise "the people slept" , not "the bodies slept".

same with what you quoted - "the saints who had fallen asleep"
not "the bodies who had fallen asleep"

Or, if you go in the bedroom and fall asleep or fall asleep on the couch, no one says your body fell asleep. they say you fell asleep.


as in below also --- "God's people [the saints] who had -died [L fallen asleep]"
not their bodies had fallen asleep. they did. plain english grandma //// er.... grammar... :couch

this carries on in accordance with all of Scripture without contradiction.(paradox sometimes, Yhvh is Pleased!)


Matthew 27:52Expanded Bible (EXB)

52 The graves opened, and many [L of the bodies] of ·God’s people [the saints] who had ·died [L fallen asleep] were raised from the dead.
Click to expand...


People regularly say alot of things things... like where's the body buried, or where is the corpse?


It is what the scriptures teach us, that establishes the truth.


51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; Matthew 27:51-52


JLB
 
JLB said:
People regularly say alot of things things... like where's the body buried, or where is the corpse?
It is what the scriptures teach us, that establishes the truth.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; Matthew 27:51-52
JLB
Click to expand...

find an older english teacher, retired. they might not help, but they might. hope springs eternal.
just in case,
(i don't remember),
is english not your first language ? (even if it is, almost no one .... no , i take that back.... no one got better grades than i did all through school, including english and grammar et al related. it didn't help per salvation any more than Paul's education helped him, but that's how I know it says the saints who had fallen asleep is correct english, not the bodies had fallen asleep..... also, remember, except for Yeshua, the bodies that died saw corruption. if the bodies had just fallen asleep, no corruption.)
 
follower said:
find an older english teacher, retired. they might not help, but they might. hope springs eternal.
just in case,
(i don't remember),
is english not your first language ? (even if it is, almost no one .... no , i take that back.... no one got better grades than i did all through school, including english and grammar et al related. it didn't help per salvation any more than Paul's education helped him, but that's how I know it says the saints who had fallen asleep is correct english, not the bodies had fallen asleep..... also, remember, except for Yeshua, the bodies that died saw corruption. if the bodies had just fallen asleep, no corruption.)
Click to expand...


1 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; Matthew 27:51-52

The body dies and decays.


JLB
 
JLB said:
No, It doesn't clarify anything at all.

I read his post, and it was clear, when I read his post that he doesn't believe in soul sleep.
So your post isn't anymore clear than his.
If you go back and read our post's, you will see why I responded this way.

Thanks for your input.
JLB
Click to expand...

If his post was clear that he does NOT believe in "soul sleep", (I also do not believe in it) then what is the point you are attempting to make?

Please connect the dots for me and please do not tell me to "go back to your posts". I have read them, and I am confused about what you are attempting to say, therefore going back would be useless for me. OK?
 
follower said:
find an older english teacher, retired. they might not help, but they might. hope springs eternal.
just in case,
(i don't remember),
is english not your first language ? (even if it is, almost no one .... no , i take that back.... no one got better grades than i did all through school, including english and grammar et al related. it didn't help per salvation any more than Paul's education helped him, but that's how I know it says the saints who had fallen asleep is correct english, not the bodies had fallen asleep..... also, remember, except for Yeshua, the bodies that died saw corruption. if the bodies had just fallen asleep, no corruption.)
Click to expand...

If you were so good in English, then why did you fail to capitalize it TWICE?? :confused2
Yes, I am retired, and yes, my undergrad degree was in teaching English.

and no, you are not e.e.cummings so use capital letters when required, or else do not tell others that we English teachers taught you improper capitalization.
:lol2
 
Last edited:
JLB said:
This is scripture -

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

This is not -
  1. Both the unbeliever and believer are having a conscious experience;
  2. They are not asleep.
  3. The believer is in Abraham's bosom;
  4. The unbeliever is in Hades;
  5. The unbeliever is experiencing torment in Hades.
  6. There is no soul sleep here.

If I was a person who did believe in soul sleep, I would point to # 3, #4, and #5, and ask where does the word unbeliever and believer occur in this scripture?

You would then reply with more of your opinion, and I would have successfully brought doubt to your post because of your opinion.

Others who read this exchange would doubt your position because of your use of your opinion.


I hope this simple lesson was helpful to you, and that you would consider this the next time you "explain" what an assertion is.

JLB
Click to expand...

JLB,

So you want to believe that the rich man in the parable (story) of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31 ESV) was not an unbeliever.

Lk 16:22-23 ESV states that after death the rich man was 'in Hades, being in torment' and Lk 16:28 ESV, 'For I have five brothers - so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment'. Lk 16:24 ESV states of the rich man after death, 'I am in anguish in this flame'.

Please show me where in Scripture that there is teaching that believers after death go to a place of torment, anguish or in the flame?

Revelation 20:11-15 ESV tells us that unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire. That is not where believers are destined.
 
OzSpen said:
JLB,

So you want to believe that the rich man in the parable (story) of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31 ESV) was not an unbeliever.

Lk 16:22-23 ESV states that after death the rich man was 'in Hades, being in torment' and Lk 16:28 ESV, 'For I have five brothers - so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment'. Lk 16:24 ESV states of the rich man after death, 'I am in anguish in this flame'.

Please show me where in Scripture that there is teaching that believers after death go to a place of torment, anguish or in the flame?

Revelation 20:11-15 ESV tells us that unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire. That is not where believers are destined.
Click to expand...


Show me from scripture from the law, that those under the law had to believe, rather than do all the law.


JLB
 
JLB said:
Show me from scripture from the law, that those under the law had to believe, rather than do all the law.


JLB
Click to expand...

Why do you refuse to answer what I wrote at #95? What you've done here is given me a red herring logical fallacy. We can't have a logical discussion when you do this.
 
OzSpen said:
Why do you refuse to answer what I wrote at #95? What you've done here is given me a red herring logical fallacy. We can't have a logical discussion when you do this.
Click to expand...


The rich man was under the law, and was required to keep the law, all the law.

Please show from the law, what this rich man had to believe in order to "go to heaven".


JLB
 
JLB said:
The rich man was under the law, and was required to keep the law, all the law.

Please show from the law, what this rich man had to believe in order to "go to heaven".

JLB
Click to expand...

Why are you still refusing to answer the issues I raised at #95 are giving another red herring fallacy?
 
OzSpen said:
Why are you still refusing to answer the issues I raised at #95 are giving another red herring fallacy?
Click to expand...


Brother,

If you can show me from the law of Moses what the rich man was commanded to believe in order to avoid the fires of hell, then you have a point.

If you can't show from the law what the rich man was to believe, then why would you claim he is an unbeliever?

Then you turn around and accuse me of posting a red herring fallacy. :eek


JLB
 
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