“Works”

[netchaplain]

As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God. This involves asking Him to give you faith in His Son and in all He has done to provide salvation. Before an attempt is made to declare that asking for, receiving and applying faith is a “self-work,” it should be remembered that neither grace, faith nor salvation are of “yourselves” (Eph 2:8), therefore disqualifying all as “works” of man (Eph 2:9)!

The only works of godliness are those which exist within “the fruit of the Spirit,” which means works only serve in demonstrating or manifesting, but not producing His fruit. For example, “justify” consists of two definitions: 1) to make one righteous, 2) to show one righteous; and there is an infinite difference between the two. I believe a good example is James 2:24: “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified.” Here the sense of “justify” falls into definition 2, for as all know, only the Blood of Christ can “justify” per definition 1 (Rom 5:9). So, works but do not effect righteousness, but manifests it.

Anyone can appear to have faith by the outward lifestyle which is conducted (indicative appearance), but only a genuine believer can confirm faith in the Lord Jesus by a permanent perseverance of profession and works. Nobody, esp. one unregenerate can permanently maintain a nominal (in word or name only - Isa 29:13; Mat 15:8; Mar 7:6) position in Christ, for they always abandon their hypocrisy (apostatize – 1Jn 2:19), as it requires Divine support to “be held up: for God is able to make him stand” (Rom 14:4).

Only God can know for certain that one is genuinely in Christ. Individuals can know for certain concerning genuine personal salvation by His Spirit (Rom 8:16; 1Jo 4:13), but certainty for us concerning others can only be in the hope of a doubtless acceptance resulting from one’s lifestyle of a continued profession; which is exemplary of the truth that all of “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (non-annullable - Rom 11:29).

Hid With Him

 

[for_his_glory]

Salvation is a free gift by that of God's grace as our faith is in Christ Jesus. We can't earn salvation by self good deeds as salvation is given freely to all who will believe and submit themselves to Christ.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

 

[Walpole]

As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God. This involves asking Him to give you faith in His Son and in all He has done to provide salvation. Before an attempt is made to declare that asking for, receiving and applying faith is a “self-work,” it should be remembered that neither grace, faith nor salvation are of “yourselves” (Eph 2:8), therefore disqualifying all as “works” of man (Eph 2:9)!

The only works of godliness are those which exist within “the fruit of the Spirit,” which means works only serve in demonstrating or manifesting, but not producing His fruit. For example, “justify” consists of two definitions: 1) to make one righteous, 2) to show one righteous; and there is an infinite difference between the two. I believe a good example is James 2:24: “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified.” Here the sense of “justify” falls into definition 2, for as all know, only the Blood of Christ can “justify” per definition 1 (Rom 5:9). So, works but do not effect righteousness, but manifests it.

Anyone can appear to have faith by the outward lifestyle which is conducted (indicative appearance), but only a genuine believer can confirm faith in the Lord Jesus by a permanent perseverance of profession and works. Nobody, esp. one unregenerate can permanently maintain a nominal (in word or name only - Isa 29:13; Mat 15:8; Mar 7:6) position in Christ, for they always abandon their hypocrisy (apostatize – 1Jn 2:19), as it requires Divine support to “be held up: for God is able to make him stand” (Rom 14:4).

Only God can know for certain that one is genuinely in Christ. Individuals can know for certain concerning genuine personal salvation by His Spirit (Rom 8:16; 1Jo 4:13), but certainty for us concerning others can only be in the hope of a doubtless acceptance resulting from one’s lifestyle of a continued profession; which is exemplary of the truth that all of “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (non-annullable - Rom 11:29).

Hid With Him

I'm confused. You write...

"As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God. This involves asking Him to give you faith in His Son and in all He has done to provide salvation."

If there's truly nothing people can do, that would mean one MUST NOT have to ask for it. For asking is, by definition, something one does.

 

[netchaplain]

Salvation is a free gift by that of God's grace as our faith is in Christ Jesus. We can't earn salvation by self good deeds as salvation is given freely to all who will believe and submit themselves to Christ.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Salvation is imparted when one truly asks God for saving faith!

 

[netchaplain]

I'm confused. You write...

"As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God. This involves asking Him to give you faith in His Son and in all He has done to provide salvation."

If there's truly nothing people can do, that would mean one MUST NOT have to ask for it. For asking is, by definition, something one does.

 

[netchaplain]

I'm confused. You write...

"As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God. This involves asking Him to give you faith in His Son and in all He has done to provide salvation."

If there's truly nothing people can do, that would mean one MUST NOT have to ask for it. For asking is, by definition, something one does.

Hi and thanks for your comment! I don't see asking is doing anything to earn salvation, and if we don't ask for salvation, how would we enter it? When one is asking for salvation, they may not know it but they are being given faith, "through" which is the only means grace can be imparted.

Plus it's worth noting, why would one not desire to ask, e.g. Mat 7:7; Mar 9:24; Luk 11:13; Jam 4:2, 3, etc.?

 

[Walpole]

Hi and thanks for your comment! I don't see asking is doing anything to earn salvation, and if we don't ask for salvation, how would we enter it? When one is asking for salvation, they may not know it but they are being given faith, "through" which is the only means grace can be imparted.

Plus it's worth noting, why would one not desire to ask, e.g. Mat 7:7; Mar 9:24; Luk 11:13; Jam 4:2, 3, etc.?

But asking is by definition doing something. Hence, if you ask for salvation, you have done something to merit it. Ergo your statement, "As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God. This involves asking Him to give you faith in His Son and in all He has done to provide salvation" is self-contradictory. (For again, asking is doing something.)

 

[for_his_glory]

Salvation is imparted when one truly asks God for saving faith!

I agree as Jesus is our saving faith and God's salvation is imparted to us when we confess Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[for_his_glory]

But asking is by definition doing something. Hence, if you ask for salvation, you have done something to merit it. Ergo your statement, "As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God. This involves asking Him to give you faith in His Son and in all He has done to provide salvation" is self-contradictory. (For again, asking is doing something.)

What we are doing on our part is believeing.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Walpole]

What we are doing on our part is believeing.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And believing is something man does. Ergo, the OP's premise, "As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God" is erroneous.

 

[for_his_glory]

And believing is something man does. Ergo, the OP's premise, "As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God" is erroneous.

What is being spoke of is that no one can work for their salvation as it is a free gift from God. Of course believing is something we have to do on our part as we ask Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. Salvation only comes to those who believe.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Walpole]

What is being spoke of is that no one can work for their salvation as it is a free gift from God. Of course believing is something we have to do on our part as we ask Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. Salvation only comes to those who believe.

Again, believing and asking are things one does. Hence, they are work.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Precisely. Grace is not (an absolute negative) a work man does. Rather, it is a gift of God. (cf Eph 2:8-9). Grace does not originate from man, but rather it originates from its source: God (cf. 1 Pt 5:10)

 

[Nathan12]

And believing is something man does. Ergo, the OP's premise, "As Scripture attests, there’s nothing people can do of themselves to effect salvation and must ask for it from God" is erroneous.

The Bible is crystal clear that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. That involves a conscious turning AWAY from sins and idols (repentance) and a conscious turning TO Christ for salvation, while believing that He is indeed God manifest in the flesh who died for our sins, and rose again for our justification.

Calvinists falsely proclaim that salvation is all about God's sovereignty, when Scripture says that salvation is all about God's grace. Hence this erroneous idea that turning to Christ for salvation is a "work" and man does nothing for his salvation.

 

[Walpole]

The Bible is crystal clear that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. That involves a conscious turning AWAY from sins and idols (repentance) and a conscious turning TO Christ for salvation, while believing that He is indeed God manifest in the flesh who died for our sins, and rose again for our justification.

Calvinists falsely proclaim that salvation is all about God's sovereignty, when Scripture says that salvation is all about God's grace. Hence this erroneous idea that turning to Christ for salvation is a "work" and man does nothing for his salvation.

Good post.

 

[for_his_glory]

Again, believing and asking are things one does. Hence, they are work.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12)




Precisely. Grace is not (an absolute negative) a work man does. Rather, it is a gift of God. (cf Eph 2:8-9). Grace does not originate from man, but rather it originates from its source: God (cf. 1 Pt 5:10)

I never said grace originated with man as everyone knows it's a free gift of God to all who will believe by faith in His Son Christ Jesus. We can't work for it, but only believe in it.

Explain to me how you see believing and asking Jesus to be your Lord and Savior as being a work of salvation.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Working out our own salvation is letting God work within us as He is the author and finisher of our faith in Christ Jesus. It's not our works, but God's work in us. Our part is to be obedient to His commands and statures.

 

[Walpole]

I never said grace originated with man as everyone knows it's a free gift of God to all who will believe by faith in His Son Christ Jesus. We can't work for it, but only believe in it.

And I never said you said grace originated with man. I simply commented on the verse from Ephesians you quoted.

Explain to me how you see believing and asking Jesus to be your Lord and Savior as being a work of salvation.

Because if MAN has to believe and ask (both works / something man does), and in return salvation is granted, then salvation is dependent upon a work man must do.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Yes, of course. And don't forget the preceding verse...

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (v. 12)

Working out our own salvation is letting God work within us as He is the author and finisher of our faith in Christ Jesus. It's not our works, but God's work in us. Our part is to be obedient to His commands and statures.

But being believing / asking and now being obedient are all things MAN does. God doesn't do the believing / asking / obeying. Man does. They are works of man.

 

[netchaplain]

But being believing / asking and now being obedient are all things MAN does. God doesn't do the believing / asking / obeying. Man does. They are works of man.

Just wanted to add that faith is a work (fruit - Gal 5:22) of the Spirit, and man is the recipient of its benefit. Man has not the power for faith in God apart from the work of the Son, the Author or creator of our faith - (Heb 12:2); and the Spirit is the giver of faith via His fruit.

Not taking sides but just keeping the thread going in the proper direction with Scripture.

 

[Nathan12]

Just wanted to add that faith is a work (fruit - Gal 5:22) of the Spirit, and man is the recipient of its benefit. Man has not the power for faith in God apart from the work of the Son, the Author or creator of our faith - (Heb 12:2); and the Spirit is the giver of faith via His fruit.

While it is perfectly true that faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit, and also that faith is one of the gifts of the Spirit, those truths are applicable only to those who are ALREADY saved.

But saving faith is what we are talking about, and saving faith cannot be either a work of man or a "gift" from God, since God has provided a very definite means of generating saving faith. And that is the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:26). Thus "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). In Ephesians 2:8,9, the gift is salvation, not faith, just as in Rom 6:23, the gift is eternal life, and in John 3:16, Christ Himself is the gift.

Indeed Romans chapter 10 is there to show us how saving faith is generated so that it leads to the obedience of the Gospel. And while the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in this chapter, Scripture tell us that one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit is to convict and convince sinners when they hear or read the Gospel. So the power of the Spirit and the power of the Gospel bring sinners to the Savior. It is in this sense that Christ is the Author (or Originator) of our faith.

Since God desires the salvation of all mankind, He would also give the gift of saving faith to all, if indeed it was a gift. But since we know that all are not saved, we can discount this interpretation.

 

[Walpole]

Just wanted to add that faith is a work (fruit - Gal 5:22) of the Spirit, and man is the recipient of its benefit. Man has not the power for faith in God apart from the work of the Son, the Author or creator of our faith - (Heb 12:2); and the Spirit is the giver of faith via His fruit.

Not taking sides but just keeping the thread going in the proper direction with Scripture.

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and charity, which does St. Paul say is the greatest?


"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is _________." (1 Cor 13:13)

 

[netchaplain]

While it is perfectly true that faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit, and also that faith is one of the gifts of the Spirit, those truths are applicable only to those who are ALREADY saved.

There is a natural faith and a spiritual faith, and the latter is of course from God. Christ being its Author manifests it's not within man to provide saving faith, and is why is presented as a gift, which is to be sought from God and received.

But saving faith is what we are talking about, and saving faith cannot be either a work of man or a "gift" from God, since God has provided a very definite means of generating saving faith. Thus "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17).

Some think just hearing the Gospel will provide faith (not saying you of course), but it must be given or "mixed with faith" (Heb 4:2). It cannot be in possession if not given, "for not all men have faith," i.e. saving faith (2Thess 3:3).

In Ephesians 2:8,9,

Everything godly enters "through faith," hence salvation is simultaneous with faith. I find that attempting to assign "gift" only to "salvation" in this text detracts from its narrative, which is that grace, salvation and faith are not of man's works (v 9) and hence are gifts.

I found this interesting, which has been a long standing debate concerning to which this passage specifically refers:

John Gill -
I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor: "In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? His reply was:

"Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely.

"However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position). In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology."

Since God desires the salvation of all mankind, He would also give the gift of saving faith to all, if indeed it was a gift. But since we know that all are not saved, we can discount this interpretation.

It's my understanding that God does not give faith to most people because most do not desire to choose "the narrow way" (Mat 7:13, 14), and therefore they will not ask of it from Him.