Bible Study 10 Commandments....God's Standard of Righteousness ?

[evanman]

Jay T--So you NEVER fall short of the glory of God?

 

[Jay T]

Jay,

I agree with the commandments, but if you hold yourself to the Old Testament code of the sabbath (7th day), then one would have to say that Jesus sinned by breaking the Sabbath Himself.{/quote]Where in all the Bible does it say Jesus sinned by observing the 7th day Sabbath ?
He said that the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath. Because man will work himself to death 7 days a week with no time for God, or family, or time to refresh himself. Everybody needs a day off; a time away from the rat race. The Lord knew it was needed.

Jesus broke it [quote:716a6] again, where does it say Jesus broke the Sabbath ?
Jesus said He had 'kept' His Father's commandments !
[quote:716a6]I'm always careful not to become law-driven, because we humans will tend to expect everyone else to match up to it, and the liberty and grace of the Lord gets pushed aside. I'm no better than anybody else and I always want to live in His total grace, yet respect the will of the Lord in everything.

[/quote:716a6][/quote:716a6] The people of God are described as: "Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that 'keep' the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12).


Jesus said: "IF...you love me..keep my commandments", (John 14:15).

Only those who love Jesus...will keep the commandments of God.

 

[antitox]

Jesus and his disciples went through the grainfields picking the stalks and were confronted by the Pharisees saying they were doing what was not lawful on the sabbath. In reality this wasn't a true violation of the commandment, but it was in the eyes of the Jewish community; at least it was what they all observed.

 

[Jay T]

Jesus and his disciples went through the grainfields picking the stalks and were confronted by the Pharisees saying they were doing what was not lawful on the sabbath. In reality this wasn't a true violation of the commandment, but it was in the eyes of the Jewish community; at least it was what they all observed.

AH...but who was it that accused him, but the Lawbreakers themselves.

The religious leaders, usually are the last to be trusted in religious matters.....then, as now.

 

[evanman]

Jay T--So you NEVER fall short of the glory of God?

I am awaiting your answer

 

[Jay T]

Jay T--So you NEVER fall short of the glory of God?

I am awaiting your answer

The Bible says: "Judge no man".
You have not the right to ask me that, only God has that right....or, are you God ?

Only a guilty conscious would seek to throw off guilt, to put upon someone else...as Adam and Eve did with God.

I judge no one as you think I'm doing......I'm warning people about the Judgment Day of God, about what the standard of the Judgment will be.....so people will pass the Judgment !

 

[Mike01075]

great post evanman!

Also JayT, it says in Leviticus 23

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Here is states that the Sabbath is a holy convocation......as all the feasts described in the rest of Leviticus 23.

could you please explain? (to an ex-WCG'er : )

I was second in line after Evanman :

 

[Jay T]

great post evanman!

Also JayT, it says in Leviticus 23

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Here is states that the Sabbath is a holy convocation......as all the feasts described in the rest of Leviticus 23.

could you please explain? (to an ex-WCG'er : )

I was second in line after Evanman :

OK...from my understanding, Sabbath means, 'rest', right ?

In the Law of God (Exodus 20:3-17) we have the 7th day Sabbath, which God established in the Garden of Eden, (Genesis 2:2,3).

God added to the Law, that Moses wrote down, in a book, other sabbaths to be observed:
Feast of Unleaven Bread, Feasts of Tabernacles, Feasts of Trumpets, Passover, ...etc.,...etc.

When Christ died on the cross...almost everything contained in the Law of Moses was abolished, including these feastival sabbaths.

The only Sabbath that, 'remained' ..was in the very heart of the Law of God...the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17).

 

[John the Baptist]

Is Righteousness....'right-doing' ?

The Bible says: 'All thy commandments are righteousness', (Psalms 119:172).
The modern Christian world says, that this is a lie.



The 10 commandments as found in Exodus 20:3-17, written by Christ himself, covers every aspect and situation of life.

#1......loyalty
#2.....Commitment
#3.....Reverence
#4.................Worship
#5.....Honor
#6.....Appreciation
#7.....purity
#8.....Honesty
#9.....Truthfulness
#10....UNselfishness

Satan understands that 'if ' the Christian world were to understand God's standard of Righteousness....he would lose control over them.

Yet, he is intelligent enough not to attack all of them at once.
If Satan can get a person to break just one...of those commandments.....he's got them !

James 2:10-12 tells us that, 'to break just one of the commandments ...is to break them all'.

Satan understands this principle, and he is counting on the modern Christian world, not to understand, that point.

Satan has been most successful at keeping from the Christian world, what the definition of sin is.
Satan understands, 'that the wages of sin is death', (Romans 6:23).
BUT then....the Bible does says: "And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an Angel of light, (2 Corinthians 11:14,15). He brings to people his ideas of salvation....his ideas of what grace is, etc,. etc.
He can sell his ideas because his ideas are in agreement with man's sinful nature, which rejects any law (10 commandments ?) that would restrict his sinful practices.


Is it any wonder Jesus said, concerning his 2nd coming...."Will there be faith in the earth, at the coming of the son of man"?

Hi there!

I just want to bring it to your attention, that you are comparing apples to oranges in your posting.

The word "commandment" in Psalm 119 and Exodus 20 in Hebrew is "mitsvah" which is not the same as the Greek word used in James which is "nomos".

In James, the term is used to define "custom", "the established name for "law" as decreed by a state and set up as the standard for the administration of justice" (Vine's) which is entirely different from the totality of the law of the Torah. Vine Expositionary Dictionary continues to delineate that the term in James 2 does not have the definite article, thus, "the absence of the article before nomos indicates the assertion of a principle, by "obedience to law", but evidently the Moasic Law is in view. Here the apostle is maintaining that submission to circumcision entails the obligation to do the whole "laws." Circumcision belongs to the ceremonial part of the "Law," but, while the Mosaic Law is actually divisible into the ceremonial and the moral, no such distinction is made or even assumed in Scriptures. The statement maintains the freedom of the believer from the "law" of Moses in its totality as a means of justification."


You are comparing apples to oranges.


~serapha~

**********************

You best study the FACTS of 2 Cor. 3:3 to 'see' what the 'EPISTLE' (CHARACTER-LETTER!) of Christ 'produces' in the MIND OF THE BORN AGAIN SAINT! (and where they were, before salvation came to them?)

I know, one cannot understand what they DO NOT HAVE! See 1 John 4:6

SO: The bottom line of "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" (ALL ARE DELIGHTFUL) will need a RECREATION of ones mind & heart to LOVE CHRIST!

---John

 

[Bob10]

condensed version

Loving God with all your heart and soul and mind; and
Loving your neighbor as yourself

is a condensed version of the Ten Commandments.

Compare Matt. 19:17-19 with the same story, told by Luke (10:25-28).

Matthew has Jesus listing some of the Ten Commandments, while Luke has the lawyer giving the "condensed version" out of the law (Deut. 6:5 / Lev. 19:18).

Both accounts are correct: the first four Commandments tell us how to love God. The last six tell us how to love our fellow man.

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: condensed version

Loving God with all your heart and soul and mind; and
Loving your neighbor as yourself

is a condensed version of the Ten Commandments.

Compare Matt. 19:17-19 with the same story, told by Luke (10:25-28).

Matthew has Jesus listing some of the Ten Commandments, while Luke has the lawyer giving the "condensed version" out of the law (Deut. 6:5 / Lev. 19:18).

Both accounts are correct: the first four Commandments tell us how to love God. The last six tell us how to love our fellow man.

*******
Right you are! :fadein: And what 'Born Again Saint' would not want to keep [ALL OF THEM]? No one! BECAUSE WE LOVE OUR LORD & HE has provided the necessary provisions, huh? Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9

---John

 

[Jay T]

Hi there!

I just want to bring it to your attention, that you are comparing apples to oranges in your posting.

The word "commandment" in Psalm 119 and Exodus 20 in Hebrew is "mitsvah" which is not the same as the Greek word used in James which is "nomos".

I agree with you on the fact that there are 2 different languages here.
So, let's look at the Greek only, for right now, OK ?
The same Greek word for commandments is found in Matthew (before the death of Jesus Christ)......as found in 1 John 2:4 (after the death and resurrection of Christ).

Thereby showing that the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) as found before Christ's death and resurrection ....are the same as after the death and resurrection of Christ.
WHICH MEANS.........the 7th day Sabbath, did 'not' fade away, as so much of the Christian world wants to believe.

In James, the term is used to define "custom", "the established name for "law" as decreed by a state and set up as the standard for the administration of justice" (Vine's) which is entirely different from the totality of the law of the Torah. Vine Expositionary Dictionary continues to delineate that the term in James 2 does not have the definite article, thus, "the absence of the article before nomos indicates the assertion of a principle, by "obedience to law", but evidently the Moasic Law is in view.

then, how do you explain Colossians 214-16 ?
The Bible says...that the Law of Moses was abolished at the Cross.

Here the apostle is maintaining that submission to circumcision entails the obligation to do the whole "laws." Circumcision belongs to the ceremonial part of the "Law," but, while the Mosaic Law is actually divisible into the ceremonial and the moral, no such distinction is made or even assumed in Scriptures.

OH ?
question then:
POINT #1.) In Duet. 5:22 (Immediately after the 10 commandments are quoted)....'and He added no more'.
POINT #2.) In light of the above statement, Where is the rite of circumcision anywhere in the 10 commandments ?

The statement maintains the freedom of the believer from the "law" of Moses in its totality as a means of justification."I agree.......the sacrificial systems contained in the law of moses was abolished at the cross....because of the great sacrifice of Jesus ...AS, the sacrificial lamb.


one final point to clarify:
God's Law , the 10 commandments was written on stone tablets...with the very finger of God, (Exodus 31:18).

The Law of Moses, was written , by Moses himself.....in a 'book', (Exodus 24:4,7).


You are comparing apples to oranges.


~serapha~

**********************

You best study the FACTS of 2 Cor. 3:3 to 'see' what the 'EPISTLE' (CHARACTER-LETTER!) of Christ 'produces' in the MIND OF THE BORN AGAIN SAINT! (and where they were, before salvation came to them?)

I know, one cannot understand what they DO NOT HAVE! See 1 John 4:6

SO: The bottom line of "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" (ALL ARE DELIGHTFUL) will need a RECREATION of ones mind & heart to LOVE CHRIST!

---John[/quote]

 

[evanman]

If anyone believes that holding "church services" on Saturday instead of Sunday is "Keeping Sabbath" then they are deceived!

Keeping Sabbath has absolutely nothing to do with "Going To Church" It is about entering into God's rest!

 

[John the Baptist]

If anyone believes that holding "church services" on Saturday instead of Sunday is "Keeping Sabbath" then they are deceived!

Keeping Sabbath has absolutely nothing to do with "Going To Church" It is about entering into God's rest!

*******
O' so John being IN THE SPIRIT ON THE LORD'S DAY of Rev. 1:10 (you don't know what day that is?? See Mark 2:27-28) & Heb. 10:25's suggestion of assembly, is just not Truth, huh? Sure sounds like Cains reasoning of Gen. 4:7 to me! : But surely I understand that God only 'leads' as one will follow. Rom. 8:14

---John

 

[Jay T]

Keeping Sabbath has absolutely nothing to do with "Going To Church" It is about entering into God's rest!

Yes,
And God specified which 'day' that rest was to be observed:
"Remember the Sabbath 'day'...to keep 'it'...Holy".

 

[Bob10]

Sign for Israel only?

Exodus 31:16: "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant."


No one can deny that this absolutely BINDS the people of Israel to keep the Sabbath FOREVER, and throughout their generations perpetually. Their generations are still going on. Therefore it is binding on them today.


Also we have to admit that salvation and Christianity are open to Jews and all Israelites. The gospel "is the power of GOD UNTO SALVATION to every one that believes; TO THE JEW FIRST, and also the Greek" (Rom. 1:16).

So then the Jew can be a converted CHRISTIAN! Indeed, the Church at the beginning was nearly altogether Jewish! So the JEW, even though a Christian in God's CHURCH, is BOUND to keep God's Sabbath as a perpetual covenant, throughout his generations, FOREVER!


Now, does God have TWO KINDS of Christians? Is it SIN for a Jewish Christian to break the Sabbath, and sin for all others to KEEP it? Must Jewish Christians assemble on the Sabbath, and those of other nationalities on Sunday? Didn't Jesus say a house divided against itself would fall?

Are there TWO KINDS of Christians? Read Galatians 3:28-29: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. And if you [Gentiles] be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

So, since the Sabbath is BINDING TODAY on the Jewish part of God's Church, and there is no difference - we are all ONE in Christ - it is also binding on Gentiles!

 

[BereanDAD2003]

The Torah for the Jews Only

Your point would be significant if God hadn't specifically told Israel that the Law was for them.

Gentiles are not bound to the Torah, not one word of it.

Distinction between biblical economies is essential to accurate interpretation of the same, dude.

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: The Torah for the Jews Only

Your point would be significant if God hadn't specifically told Israel that the Law was for them.

Gentiles are not bound to the Torah, not one word of it.

Distinction between biblical economies is essential to accurate interpretation of the same, dude.

***
DUDE? (here we go again it seems?)

The last few verses of Rom. 2 tell's just who it is that will be in heaven!
No one will be there that is not a 'spiritual' Jew. But of course that comes ONLY by being Born Again, huh? You do not want to be a member of the church bride of a Jewish Christ's 'fold'? God/forbid!

And gentils are not bound by the Covenant of God??? See Rom. 3:31-Rom. 2:13 and even the angels who have not fallen! See Rev. 22:8-9, I suspect you know where this Covenant comes from? (and your missive original)

Yet, you are right! : NO one is [bound] by the Covenant of 'LIBERTY'.
It does one NO good to follow the Everlasting Covenant (see Heb. 13:20) of the GodHead with any other [MOTIVE] OTHER THAN A [RECREATED LOVE]!

'If ye love me keep my commandments' is only for the Jew?? Young'in, Israel of old never even accepted the Master! : How about you?

 

[BereanDAD2003]

Law versus Faith

John, you wrote:

"The last few verses of Rom. 2 tell's just who it is that will be in heaven! No one will be there that is not a 'spiritual' Jew. But of course that comes ONLY by being Born Again, huh? You do not want to be a member of the church bride of a Jewish Christ's 'fold'? God/forbid!"

BereanDAD's Response:

First, I'm not sure at all if the passage you refer to speaks of "heaven," but yes, it does speak in Romans 2 of those who are in relationship with God (v. 17) based on being non-hypocritical and on being a "true Jew." While the passage isn't talking about individuals being born again to become such a Jew, it is saying that no one who is a Jew is recognized as such if he happens to be a hypocrite, teaching "the foolish" and "infants" (v. 20) and others (vv. 21-24) to follow various aspects of the law while doing the very things they condemn.

Paul says that the value of the law comes in one's following it. He gravely points out in another place that if one seeks to be justified by the law, he will definitely find himself condemned by it since law-keeping requires following all the details of it: "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the Law.' Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because 'The righteous will live by faith'" (Galatians 3:10-11). The whole point of the Law of Moses was to create the desperation that should come when one sees the catalogue of sins leveled against him for his disobedience to it. Paul's point is that one should not seek to be justified by the Law, but rather "by faith" as a system. Abraham was considered righteous by God on the basis of his faith (certainly not his perfection, given some of his moral bobbles; notwithstanding that the Law was over 400 years away from being given anyway.)

The whole point of Christianity is that before the foundation of the world, God had planned, schemed, determined--however you want to say it--that there would come a time when he would have a family comprised of all members of the human family (Ephesians 2:11-18). Certainly that would be accomplished by the bringing into existence his "seed," namely the Messiah Jesus. The Law was an afterthought, or maybe it would be more correct to say that "it was added": "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come" (Galatians 3:19). Salvation was by faith, not by law. Even king David, for example, according to the Law of Moses, should have been wasted because of the two sins of murder and adultery (2 Samuel 11; Leviticus 20:10; Numbers 35:16). Neither sin had any provision for forgiveness in the Mosaic Law. Yet Nathan the prophet declares David forgiven (2 Samuel 12:13-14). If David was forgiven, it was not on the basis of the Law, but rather on the basis of God's Sovereign prerogative (Psalm 115:3) to forgive those who have a heart to live faith (Habakuk 2:4), which of course, David did (Acts 13:22).

The Mosaic Law, given to the Jews, guided them well enough, but it was never intended to be permanent. And indeed, through the Messiah's sacrifice, it was done away, since God never intended it to be permanent anyway. "The law with its commandments" is described, relative to Jew and Gentile, as being "the dividing wall of hostility," which the Messiah destroyed in his flesh. The death of Jesus on the cross makes it possible for Jews and Gentiles to be absolutely one now (Ephesians 2:16).

You write:

"And gentil[e]s are not bound by the Covenant of God??? See Rom. 3:31-Rom. 2:13 and even the angels who have not fallen! See Rev. 22:8-9, I suspect you know where this Covenant comes from? (and your missive original)."

BereanDAD's Response:

The whole context of the verses you mention begin in Romans 2:27. Paul's point there, as I've tried to indicate above, is that it is faith, not "observing the law" that is the basis of boasting in God. Certainly the law had its purpose, and for that it should be upheld as you indicate is so in Romans 3:31. But it was not to be a permanent thing. Even Paul declares that he is not under "the Law" (1 Corinthians 9:20) but under "the law of Christ" (1 Corinthians 9:21). When Paul says in Romans 2:13, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous," I would lend a hearty Amen! But the fact of the matter is stated in the previous verse, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." Paul's point in the paragraph, Romans 2:12-16 is that Jews are condemned because they've violated the Jewish law.

Gentiles are condemned because they've violated the law given to them, moral law written on the heart. He is not trying to argue, with those verses that the Mosaic Law is still in effect for today. He's arguing how people come to be condemned and in need of Christ. His argument began back in Romans 1:18, and it ends at Romans 3:9 where he says, "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. He reiterates that the purpose of the law was so that people could "become conscious of sin" (Romans 3:20), not be justified by it. And he concludes that salvation or "justification" (being declared "right" or "righteous" in God's court) "freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). Following that he talks about how this occurs in Jesus' sacrifice and how the benefits of it come to us (Jew and Gentile in context) "through faith in his blood" (v. 25). His concluding point once again, is to set faith against the Law in verses 27-31, and to declare the wonderful plan of God to "justify the circumcised [Jews] by faith and the uncircumcised [Gentiles] through that same faith" (Romans 3:30).

I appreciate what you have to say, John. But a little fine tuning on your thoughts will serve you well in this regard of Law versus Faith--two systems set against one another. One (the Law) made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) by a new covenant mediated by the Messiah (Hebrews 9:15).

--BereanDAD

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, the message that I read the first time was that there is a different way of salvation for the Jew & the Gentile? Right or wrong? See Heb. 11:13.

You seem to confuse the law of Gal. (added because of sin) & the James 2:8-12's [ROYAL LAW] (Eternal Covenant) that [ALL] will be finally judged by to see if they 'really' are Born Again & [MATURE] Obedient believers safe to save, with the law that Moses penned in a book? See Deut. 31 & Na. 1:9. (still again, LOVE is the 'tested' motive of ALL the 'finally' saved Obedient ones. And how it was done! see Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 :fadein: )

Regardless: All & ONLY [Born Again SPIRITUAL] 7th day Sabbath Jew's
will not take the Mark of the Beast! That is the final testing for their LOVE of their MASTER! (not like Cain's fruit sacrifice of Gen. 4:7 or Sun.'s comparrison!)

Surely there have been many sincere saints before this [final] testing that OBEYED the MASTER as best as they had known! These too were spiritual Jews regardless if they knew it or not. See John 10:16 for what transpires when they are 'LED' by the Holy Ghost in Rom. 8:14. (not all will do so it seems? see Rev. 18:4)

Perhaps one might explore the Born Again [POSTIVES ONLY] of Heb. 6 to see why this is most likely so? What more does one need they might say? I [HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD], [I HAVE BEEN MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST]!

In other words, they FEEL GOOD! They go by FEELING instead of PRINCIPLE! God said it I BELIEVE IT AND THAT SETTLES IT FOR ME as the old [TRUTHFUL] saying goes. True LOVE is a principle, not feeling or emotion!

As far as MATURING goes, who needs that they wonder? So they mis/understand the WHOLE of the Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting [CONDITIONAL] Covenant! : Read & study Hosea 4:6 with [our] last day [INCREASED KNOWLEDGE]. (even AFTER we have all of the Master's Word RECORDED.

You might wonder why the GodHead tested the first pair of Their [PERFECTLY CREATED] ones in the first place? Who by the way, were neither called Jews. The reason was that [ALL] of Their creating were [NOT] created with a [MATURE] Character! (even the other world's' as is twice stated in the Heb. chapters) This they had to develope. Surely the provision 'IN CHRIST' was given, yet it was their free DECISION to make!

---John