What's new
Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Online forum for sale. Please send Stovebolts PM for details. https://meetchristians.net
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

2 evidences that water baptism doesn't save anyone

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
There are 2 Scriptural passages that are about baptism but in fact people were saved by staying dry, rather than by immersion.

1 Peter 3:20-21 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ NASB

First, let's notice that Peter said that Noah plus the 7 were brought "safely through the water". He didn't say "by the water". Then, in the next breath, he says "baptism now saves you". Hm. He clarifies what he meant by the next phrase: "not the removala of dirt from the flesh". This is a reference to applying water to the body to remove dirt. So Peter was not referring to water baptism here as to what saves us. In fact, he corresponds baptism with the saving of the 8 "through the water". Obviously none of the 8 were immersed in the flood.

But…the rest of mankind DID get immersed in the flood. They were certainly water baptized, and died as a result. They were not saved by the water; they were killed by the water.

So, Peter is referring to what John the baptist said in Mark 1:8 (and Lk 3:16); “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” NASB

This is a reference to regeneration, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit when a person believes in Christ. This baptism is an identification of the believer with Christ, and is referred to as a seal in Eph 1:13 for the day of redemption in Eph 4:30. This is a dry baptism.

Second, Paul wrote that the Exodus generation was "baptized into Moses" in 1 Cor 10:2 - and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea NASB

However, we know that they passed "dry shod" through the Red Sea, per Ex 14:16 - “As for you, lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel shall go through the midst of the sea on dry land. NASB

And, who did get "immersed" in the Red Sea? The Egyptian army. All of them. They were not saved by immersion. They were killed by immersion.

So, what was this "baptism into Moses" that Paul wrote about in 1 Cor 10? It was an identification of the people of Israel with Moses. They went through dry, yet it was called a baptism. They Egyptian army got immersed and were destroyed.

These 2 passages demonstrate that water immersion isn't what saves. In fact, in these 2 passages, it is what kills, not saves.

The baptism that saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who regenerates us, gives us eternal life, and seals believers for the day of redemption.
 

Andrew Mason

Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2013
Messages
158
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Salvation is based on faith that Jesus is the Christ, period. - 1 John 5:1

For the value and application of water baptism and baptism in the Holy Spirit, one must simply read the book of Acts and observe how the 1st Church practiced it (which was often and repeatedly).
 

Knotical

Shepherd of the Knotical kid-farm
Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
6,078
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Baptism is just a sacrament that is used to show that those who are saved are set apart by God. It does not facilitate salvation, salvation is what has already occurred.
 

gr8grace3

 
Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
2,180
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
There are 2 Scriptural passages that are about baptism but in fact people were saved by staying dry, rather than by immersion.

1 Peter 3:20-21 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ NASB

First, let's notice that Peter said that Noah plus the 7 were brought "safely through the water". He didn't say "by the water". Then, in the next breath, he says "baptism now saves you". Hm. He clarifies what he meant by the next phrase: "not the removala of dirt from the flesh". This is a reference to applying water to the body to remove dirt. So Peter was not referring to water baptism here as to what saves us. In fact, he corresponds baptism with the saving of the 8 "through the water". Obviously none of the 8 were immersed in the flood.

But…the rest of mankind DID get immersed in the flood. They were certainly water baptized, and died as a result. They were not saved by the water; they were killed by the water.

So, Peter is referring to what John the baptist said in Mark 1:8 (and Lk 3:16); “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” NASB

This is a reference to regeneration, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit when a person believes in Christ. This baptism is an identification of the believer with Christ, and is referred to as a seal in Eph 1:13 for the day of redemption in Eph 4:30. This is a dry baptism.

Second, Paul wrote that the Exodus generation was "baptized into Moses" in 1 Cor 10:2 - and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea NASB

However, we know that they passed "dry shod" through the Red Sea, per Ex 14:16 - “As for you, lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel shall go through the midst of the sea on dry land. NASB

And, who did get "immersed" in the Red Sea? The Egyptian army. All of them. They were not saved by immersion. They were killed by immersion.

So, what was this "baptism into Moses" that Paul wrote about in 1 Cor 10? It was an identification of the people of Israel with Moses. They went through dry, yet it was called a baptism. They Egyptian army got immersed and were destroyed.

These 2 passages demonstrate that water immersion isn't what saves. In fact, in these 2 passages, it is what kills, not saves.

The baptism that saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who regenerates us, gives us eternal life, and seals believers for the day of redemption.
This is gr8grace3, and I approve this message.:yes
 

jonahmano

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
536
so what's the conclusion. Jesus did a mistake by instituting baptism???? Even the apostles were fools to baptize people in the name of Jesus Christ. And also you grace guys should not forget that Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize them.

My take on is. Baptism cannot be avoidable. Any doctrine which is against the teaching of Jesus Christ is nothing but cult.
 

jonahmano

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
536
There are 2 Scriptural passages that are about baptism but in fact people were saved by staying dry, rather than by immersion.

1 Peter 3:20-21 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ NASB

First, let's notice that Peter said that Noah plus the 7 were brought "safely through the water". He didn't say "by the water". Then, in the next breath, he says "baptism now saves you". Hm. He clarifies what he meant by the next phrase: "not the removala of dirt from the flesh". This is a reference to applying water to the body to remove dirt. So Peter was not referring to water baptism here as to what saves us. In fact, he corresponds baptism with the saving of the 8 "through the water". Obviously none of the 8 were immersed in the flood.

But…the rest of mankind DID get immersed in the flood. They were certainly water baptized, and died as a result. They were not saved by the water; they were killed by the water.

So, Peter is referring to what John the baptist said in Mark 1:8 (and Lk 3:16); “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” NASB

This is a reference to regeneration, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit when a person believes in Christ. This baptism is an identification of the believer with Christ, and is referred to as a seal in Eph 1:13 for the day of redemption in Eph 4:30. This is a dry baptism.

Second, Paul wrote that the Exodus generation was "baptized into Moses" in 1 Cor 10:2 - and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea NASB

However, we know that they passed "dry shod" through the Red Sea, per Ex 14:16 - “As for you, lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel shall go through the midst of the sea on dry land. NASB

And, who did get "immersed" in the Red Sea? The Egyptian army. All of them. They were not saved by immersion. They were killed by immersion.

So, what was this "baptism into Moses" that Paul wrote about in 1 Cor 10? It was an identification of the people of Israel with Moses. They went through dry, yet it was called a baptism. They Egyptian army got immersed and were destroyed.

These 2 passages demonstrate that water immersion isn't what saves. In fact, in these 2 passages, it is what kills, not saves.

The baptism that saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who regenerates us, gives us eternal life, and seals believers for the day of redemption.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah) No one believes that baptism will save a person but it's a symbol of dying to Christ and it cannot be avoidable.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
so what's the conclusion.
That water baptism doesn't save anyone. What the OP stated clearly.

Jesus did a mistake by instituting baptism????
Did Jesus institute it? It was around way back in OT times.

Even the apostles were fools to baptize people in the name of Jesus Christ.
Why do you think so?

And also you grace guys should not forget that Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize them.
No one has forgotten anything. Do you think water baptism is required for salvation?

My take on is. Baptism cannot be avoidable. Any doctrine which is against the teaching of Jesus Christ is nothing but cult.
Your sentences here aren't related. The OP doesn't try to avoid baptism. And there is nothing in the OP that is against the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Your post isn't clear at all regarding your own position. If you disagree with the OP, can you refute any part of it?

If you agree, please just say so. Your comments aren't clear.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah) No one believes that baptism will save a person but it's a symbol of dying to Christ and it cannot be avoidable.
OK, so you don't believe that baptism will save anyone. Good. That was the point of the OP. (Edited, response to deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

veryberry

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
338
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
so what's the conclusion. Jesus did a mistake by instituting baptism???? Even the apostles were fools to baptize people in the name of Jesus Christ. And also you grace guys should not forget that Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize them.

My take on is. Baptism cannot be avoidable. Any doctrine which is against the teaching of Jesus Christ is nothing but cult.
Yes, Christ told the 12 to baptize and the 12 did baptize. But when Israel was blinded after the stoning of Stephen, things changed.

1 Cor 1:17 -For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect

When Paul became an apostle, he was given no such command. (Edited, Doctrinal statement: "We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety". Obadiah)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

veryberry

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
338
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah) No one believes that baptism will save a person but it's a symbol of dying to Christ and it cannot be avoidable.
Just a slight correction...We don't die to Christ, We die with Christ. Once you trust how that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day, we are baptized(not water baptism) into Christ by the holy Spirit and if baptized into Christ, we are baptized into his death, burial and resurrection. We are now identified with Christ, being made dead to sin and alive unto God.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jethro Bodine

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
19,133
(Post removed. Response to deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

jonahmano

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
536
That water baptism doesn't save anyone. What the OP stated clearly.


Did Jesus institute it? It was around way back in OT times.
A simple word search for "baptism" in the Old Testament turns up no matches.

So your argument baptism was around way back in OT times is debatable.

Jesus commanded disciples to baptise. Period.



Why do you think so?


No one has forgotten anything. Do you think water baptism is required for salvation?
Even if it's not required. As Jesus was also baptized when He was on this earth. So did he commanded. So I say, let it be that way as it was in the old times. Baptisms have happened, still happening and will happen.


Your sentences here aren't related. The OP doesn't try to avoid baptism. And there is nothing in the OP that is against the teaching of Jesus Christ.
It's just to kindle fire proving that "Grace" is everything. Any grace other than Jesus death on cross is an occult (Now I'm clarifying this that I'm talking about grace for salvation.

Your post isn't clear at all regarding your own position. If you disagree with the OP, can you refute any part of it?
My point is clear. It's not that diffcult to understand that Baptism can't save a person but because Jesus commanded it so we will abide.

If you agree, please just say so. Your comments aren't clear.
Gave my opinions............
 

jonahmano

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
536
(Post removed, response to deleted portion of another post. Obadiah)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

jonahmano

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
536
Just a slight correction...We don't die to Christ, We die with Christ. Once you trust how that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day, we are baptized(not water baptism) into Christ by the holy Spirit and if baptized into Christ, we are baptized into his death, burial and resurrection. We are now identified with Christ, being made dead to sin and alive unto God.
Sorry for the grammatical mistake.
 

jonahmano

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
536
Yes, Christ told the 12 to baptize and the 12 did baptize. But when Israel was blinded after the stoning of Stephen, things changed.

1 Cor 1:17 -For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect

When Paul became an apostle, he was given no such command. (Edited, Doctrinal statement: "We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety". Obadiah)
It's because Paul didn't want to show off by claiming that I have saved this many of people or that many by baptizing people. Maybe he would have given the charge of baptism to the elders of particular area. If Paul did want to say "No To Water Baptism" then he would do it very specifically. (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

veryberry

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
338
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
It's because Paul didn't want to show off by claiming that I have saved this many of people or that many by baptizing people. Maybe he would have given the charge of baptism to the elders of particular area. If Paul did want to say "No To Water Baptism" then he would do it very specifically. (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)
One Lord, one faith, one baptism
For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body....

This is our baptism, and it has nothing to do with water.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
A simple word search for "baptism" in the Old Testament turns up no matches.

So your argument baptism was around way back in OT times is debatable.
A simple internet search will provide many links to Jewish baptism in the OT. Here is just one:
http://www.religioninfo.org/baptism/OT-baptism.pdf

Jesus commanded disciples to baptise. Period.
Sure. But what for, specifically? Do you have any specific verses that indicate WHY one is to be baptized?

Even if it's not required.
What do you mean by "even if…"? There are no Biblical statements that require water baptism for salvation. And the OP has clearly demonstrated that in 2 cases, those considered "baptized" stayed dry, while others got a full immersion and died as a result. That's not salvation in any sense of the word!

As Jesus was also baptized when He was on this earth.
Could you explain the purpose of His baptism, please?

So did he commanded.
What does this sentence mean?

So I say, let it be that way as it was in the old times. Baptisms have happened, still happening and will happen.
What is your point here?

My point is clear. It's not that diffcult to understand that Baptism can't save a person but because Jesus commanded it so we will abide.
That is the point of the OP, yet your posts seem in disagreement. I'm trying to figure out why they are.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
It's because Paul didn't want to show off by claiming that I have saved this many of people or that many by baptizing people. Maybe he would have given the charge of baptism to the elders of particular area. If Paul did want to say "No To Water Baptism" then he would do it very specifically. (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)
Are you aware of the difference between the "wet" and "dry" baptisms in Scripture? Can you give an example of each?
 

jonahmano

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
536
One Lord, one faith, one baptism
For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body....

This is our baptism, and it has nothing to do with water.

One Lord One Faith One baptism. One God and father of all who is above all and through all and in you all.

Here it's definitely talked about water baptism. Baptism by Holy Ghost is a personal thing, and Paul is not talking about one or more spiritual baptisms.
 

jonahmano

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
536
A simple internet search will provide many links to Jewish baptism in the OT. Here is just one:
http://www.religioninfo.org/baptism/OT-baptism.pdf


Sure. But what for, specifically? Do you have any specific verses that indicate WHY one is to be baptized?
Better if you talk of what is in the bible and not outside the bible. Don't want to accept anything outside the bible. I don't want to comment on anything of What Jesus commanded to His bride.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19



What do you mean by "even if…"? There are no Biblical statements that require water baptism for salvation. And the OP has clearly demonstrated that in 2 cases, those considered "baptized" stayed dry, while others got a full immersion and died as a result. That's not salvation in any sense of the word!


Could you explain the purpose of His baptism, please?


What does this sentence mean?


What is your point here?


That is the point of the OP, yet your posts seem in disagreement. I'm trying to figure out why they are.
Read Romans 6:4, that's what the purpose of baptism. Now you guys do you also say that breaking of bread is not necessary for salvation. When you say that if these things don't save you then your ultimate goal is to omit them.

You say worship doesn't save so result omit worship

You say bible reading doesn't save you so the result is stop bible reading

You say prayer doesn't save you so the result is stop praying

You say fellowship doesn't save you so the result is stop going to a fellowship
 
Top