2 evidences that water baptism doesn't save anyone

[JLB]

Salvation is by being baptized by the Holy Spirit, NOT by being immersed in water. Which Peter explained in 1 Pet 3:20-21.

...in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. 1 Peter 3:20-22


Peter is referring to water Baptism... as he plainly says: not the removal of the filth of the flesh...
This is a clear reference to water [washing the with water], in which Peter teaches water baptism is not about washing filth from your flesh, but it's about having a good conscience before God, because you have obeyed and repented by being baptized with a baptism of repentance.

A good conscience comes from having your sins forgiven, which only comes by repentance.

Read for yourself what this same Peter said on the day of Pentecost to those who did not have a good conscience, but were
"cut to the heart" at his preaching...

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”... Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;
Acts 2:36,38


JLB

 

[smaller]

I doubt very much that Jesus came to give us more ritualism. Most of the ritual practices we have today are concoctions of men.

In the O.T. there were extremely detailed rituals, and the law and the people were administered to by Angels of various sorts, Acts 7:53, Gal. 3:19, etc, all leading the the delivery of Christ Himself. Post resurrection this changed to His Spirit in us via faith in Him.

By the time Jesus came to Israel the system was utterly corrupted. That's what sinners and dead ritualism end up with.

People are led to obsess themselves over ritualism. Believers baptize their babies so God doesn't burn them alive forever. It's a sick basis to start with that is promoted by severely internally sick religious people.

When baptism turned into a LAW, then this dictate applies:

Gal. 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:

That curse is in their minds, thinking their performances earn them eternal life. Nothing can be further from Grace.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,

 

[JLB]

I doubt very much that Jesus came to give us more ritualism. Most of the ritual practices we have today are concoctions of men.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

Those who believe, will be baptized.
Those who don't believe won't be baptized.


Believers are shown to be believers, because they obey.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

...in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. 1 Peter 3:20-22

Peter is referring to water Baptism... as he plainly says: not the removal of the filth of the flesh...
This is a clear reference to water [washing the with water]

The reference is actually the absence of water in "an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh…). iow, the baptism that now saves us is NOT THE REMOVAL OF FILTH OF THE FLESH.

Peter was directly and clearly saying that it isn't water baptism that saves us. What saves us is the antitype which saves us - baptism, but NOT THE WATER KIND.

[QUOTE[in which Peter teaches water baptism is not about washing filth from your flesh, but it's about having a good conscience before God, because you have obeyed and repented by being baptized with a baptism of repentance.[/QUOTE]
I've just explained what Peter was saying.

 

[smaller]

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

Those who believe, will be baptized.
Those who don't believe won't be baptized.

Believers are shown to be believers, because they obey.

JLB

Obedience to the Spirit is entirely delineated in Romans 13:8-10. Every and any form of obedience to the Spirit is there, and it is to others and not ourselves, for our justifications.

All the whoohaa that believers might be damned if they don't perform rituals are LIES. Believers who have believed by the Spirit of Christ can't be damned or condemned. And particularly NOT by religious rituals.

 

[JLB]

Obedience to the Spirit is entirely delineated in Romans 13:8-10. Every and any form of obedience to the Spirit is there, and it is to others and not ourselves, for our justifications.

All the whoohaa that believers might be damned if they don't perform rituals are LIES. Believers who have believed by the Spirit of Christ can't be damned or condemned. And particularly NOT by religious rituals.

Please show the scripture that mentions "rituals" in the New Testament.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Please show the scripture that mentions "rituals" in the New Testament.

JLB

Religious people make their own rules on "rituals/ceremonies." None of which have to do with this internal matter:

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

And quite a few turn their self subscribed rituals into methods of eternal damnation to the above people, if not performed as their rules demand. I might term them traditions of damnation.

 

[JLB]

Religious people make their own rules on "rituals/ceremonies." None of which have to do with this internal matter:

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

And quite a few turn their self subscribed rituals into methods of eternal damnation to the above people, if not performed as their rules demand. I might term them traditions of damnation.

You keep talking about rituals but give no scripture that mentions any.

Those that refuse to obey the truth, seem to claim obedience to their own self-willed ideals.

Jesus made simple for them and for you..,

25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him
Matthew 21:25

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath... Romans 2:7-8


Jesus said.... Those who believe and are baptised will be saved.
Mark 16:16



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Please show the scripture that mentions "rituals" in the New Testament.
JLB

As soon as you show the Scripture that tells us clearly that one's salvation can be lost.

 

[smaller]

You keep talking about rituals but give no scripture that mentions any.

Religious doctors still practice scouring the scriptures, thinking the same things that the spiritually blinded of Israel did. The Word hasn't changed.

John 5:39
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.

Those that refuse to obey the truth, seem to claim obedience to their own self-willed ideals.

No man controls Jesus by what they think they see.

Jesus made simple for them and for you..,

25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him
Matthew 21:25

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath... Romans 2:7-8

Jesus said.... Those who believe and are baptised will be saved.
Mark 16:16
JLB

I have no issues with the baptism of faith in Christ, because that is from God, not from men and not from external exercises or external rituals/ceremonies.

Hebrews 10:23
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[WIP]

So, if a person believes baptism is unnecessary for salvation, is it then also considered necessary by the same to totally avoid being baptized altogether because it isn't commanded? Sounds like a works gospel in reverse. I will look to Jesus for my example.

Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Matthew 3:13-15 NKJV

 

[smaller]

So, if a person believes baptism is unnecessary for salvation, is it then also considered necessary by the same to totally avoid being baptized altogether because it isn't commanded? Sounds like a works gospel in reverse. I will look to Jesus for my example.

Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Matthew 3:13-15 NKJV

Sacramental "necessary means" is a deep topic. Full of various flavors, abundant controversies and huge divergences/divisions. The nature of these are MAN MADE through the sacerdotal systems in which they are respectively derived. In actuality there is ZERO agreement between the sects in the volumes of MAN MADE rules that are behind them.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

None of the above are man made.

 

[FreeGrace]

So, if a person believes baptism is unnecessary for salvation, is it then also considered necessary by the same to totally avoid being baptized altogether because it isn't commanded? Sounds like a works gospel in reverse. I will look to Jesus for my example.

Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Matthew 3:13-15 NKJV

I'm not sure what the question is. The issue of baptism must consider the various baptisms in Scripture; some wet (immersion) and others dry (no water involved).

The bottom line for the meaning of "baptism" is that it is an identification with something else. The Greek word was used to immerse a cloth in a dye, which then "identified" the cloth with the new color. That was the purpose of immersing something in a dye; to get a new color. Now the cloth would be identified by the new color.

Consider Jesus' baptism by John. He was being identified with His Father's plan for Him. The same is true of His statement here: Luke 12:50 - “But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!

Obviously He was referring to the Cross, where He would be identified with the sins of the world as He bore them and was judged for them.

The first baptism was symbolic and included immersion in water. The

 

[WIP]

I'm not sure what the question is. The issue of baptism must consider the various baptisms in Scripture; some wet (immersion) and others dry (no water involved).

The bottom line for the meaning of "baptism" is that it is an identification with something else. The Greek word was used to immerse a cloth in a dye, which then "identified" the cloth with the new color. That was the purpose of immersing something in a dye; to get a new color. Now the cloth would be identified by the new color.

Consider Jesus' baptism by John. He was being identified with His Father's plan for Him. The same is true of His statement here: Luke 12:50 - “But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!

Obviously He was referring to the Cross, where He would be identified with the sins of the world as He bore them and was judged for them.

The first baptism was symbolic and included immersion in water. The

Here's what I hear with the various arguments. Some believers are so afraid of legalism that they will go out of their way (legally) to avoid any appearance of legalism. For example, if it is understood that baptism does not save then to avoid the appearance of legalism they preach that baptism is not necessary and in fact is a "waste of time and water" as someone put it to me one time. Yet, Jesus by His own example got baptized in the Jordan. The same can be said for following the laws such as the Ten Commandments. Some are so afraid of appearing to be legalistic they will go out of their way (legally) to avoid appearing legal. For them which understand that the law does not save they preach that the law is immaterial and unimportant. Yet, Jesus Himself did not abolish the law. Both of these in my opinion are frightening to me and I fear for those that fall victim.

 

[smaller]

Here's what I hear with the various arguments. Some believers are so afraid of legalism that they will go out of their way (legally) to avoid any appearance of legalism. For example, if it is understood that baptism does not save then to avoid the appearance of legalism they preach that baptism is not necessary and in fact is a "waste of time and water" as someone put it to me one time. Yet, Jesus by His own example got baptized in the Jordan. The same can be said for following the laws such as the Ten Commandments. Some are so afraid of appearing to be legalistic they will go out of their way (legally) to avoid appearing legal. For them which understand that the law does not save they preach that the law is immaterial and unimportant. Yet, Jesus Himself did not abolish the law. Both of these in my opinion are frightening to me and I fear for those that fall victim.

Let's face a fact on legalism WIP. When believers take stances and they couple them with eternal penalties, they make them serious matters. Yes, I DO purposefully avoid such stances because I am NOT willing to take on condemnation and potential eternal damnation to ANY believer for ANY reason.

You may call that a trap. I would say that other believers who make such structures have themselves, fallen into the trap of legalism and FALSE self justifications. So, yeah. It pays to pay attention to what we do.

A baptist demander will look at what Jesus did and say we should do likewise. But few if any are going to fly to Israel and be baptized in the Jordan river. And if we wanted to be strict literalists, that's where we end up. Or we 'substitute' some other angles. Substitution is what all practice. None practice "literalism" in it's most literalistic sight.

The real question is this: Are we baptized by His Spirit or are we not? That is a question only our faith can answer. Literalism can not define that NOR can external exercises. We can however fall into legalism when we start "externalizing" internal matters, justifying ourselves by those external actions RATHER than the justification of faith, through Grace and Mercy of Jesus Christ via BELIEF in Him.

Jesus gave us this sight. And to me, this is the only thing that really matters. I will not fall into the condemnation trap that is set by man made legalists of any sorts.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

IF I take my eyes of of the above, there is trouble ahead, every time. Baptists can claim that practice as "means" and when they do, they forget this:

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

When we take 'means' as our own actions of salvation, we missed the point, entirely.

 

[WIP]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is good and true Scripture but we should also remember that He said this as well and therefore, in my opinion along with the teaching we also need to be reminded that we are not to sit on our hands but to be active in our faith demonstrating it by our works. Too often when I hear the arguments I hear only the first part that you quoted but not this second part. I am fearful for others that they may be taught to take their faith and salvation for granted.

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” Matthew 7:24-27 NKJV

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49 NKJV

 

[smaller]

This is good and true Scripture but we should also remember that He said this as well and therefore, in my opinion along with the teaching we also need to be reminded that we are not to sit on our hands but to be active in our faith demonstrating it by our works. Too often when I hear the arguments I hear only the first part that you quoted but not this second part. I am fearful for others that they may be taught to take their faith and salvation for granted.

I do take for granted that Jesus IS my Savior. There is no other sight to be had.

IF, for example, someone, anyone, has a confession of faith, is it my job to bring them immediately into potential condemnation over not being baptized in water?

That will NEVER happen in my sight. Never again will I look upon such a believer in that way. That person is saved, period. It is the lies of others that blinded me prior, OVER the fact that Jesus saved them, and instead, seeking their potential condemnation over external means where there has been an INTERNAL work done by Christ, Himself.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here's what I hear with the various arguments. Some believers are so afraid of legalism that they will go out of their way (legally) to avoid any appearance of legalism. For example, if it is understood that baptism does not save then to avoid the appearance of legalism they preach that baptism is not necessary and in fact is a "waste of time and water" as someone put it to me one time. Yet, Jesus by His own example got baptized in the Jordan. The same can be said for following the laws such as the Ten Commandments. Some are so afraid of appearing to be legalistic they will go out of their way (legally) to avoid appearing legal. For them which understand that the law does not save they preach that the law is immaterial and unimportant. Yet, Jesus Himself did not abolish the law. Both of these in my opinion are frightening to me and I fear for those that fall victim.

These are extreme views, and I haven't seen them "preached" here.

It has been agreed by those who don't believe that water baptism saves that water baptism is necessary as a step of obedience and public identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

The baptism that does saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which John the baptizer differentiated between his baptism (I baptize with water) and the baptism that Jesus baptized with (but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit) .

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

One can get baptized with water until the cows come home—-if one is not baptized into “ The Body Of Christ” he has missed the thing that saves him.....There are many types of Baptism mentioned in the Bible.....most of them are dry.....the Baptism That is ESSENTIAL is being baptized into the Body Of Believers....

 

[JLB]

One can get baptized with water until the cows come home—-if one is not baptized into “ The Body Of Christ” he has missed the thing that saves him.....There are many types of Baptism mentioned in the Bible.....most of them are dry.....the Baptism That is ESSENTIAL is being baptized into the Body Of Believers....

Amen.


There are three distinct baptisms in the scriptures, with three distinct and different baptizers.


The one you mentioned is associated with salvation; regeneration, being born again by the Spirit.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13




JLB