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2 Thessalonians 1 & 2

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I know the timing of the rapture has been debated on this forum ad nauseum. But I'd really like to post these verses and ask how we can possibly debate them. I'd love to hear verses on all sides of this issue as I would love to believe in a pre-trib rapture but have not found enough evidence in the scripture to believe it is so. Of course I will not tell you what to post and what not to post, but I'm not looking for type & shadow from the OT or any "logic" regarding why anyone thinks a pre-trib rapture makes sense. I'd really just like to see scriptures supporting your positions. So anyway the scripture I'd like to share is this:

2 Thessalonians 1:4-10

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,
5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Unless I am seeing this wrong, God will recompense REST to when Jesus comes back with His angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, at which time He will also be glorified in His saints. Clearly this is speaking of his second coming. If there were a pre-trib rapture, then why would He give us REST at His second coming considering we wouldn't even be here?

Also, the following scripture:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

In verses 1 and 2, Paul is clearly equating the rapture with the second coming as he goes on to say that the gathering up of the saints will not occur until the man of sin is revealed etc., which occurs sometime during the tribulation.

These were the first scriptures that convinced me that the rapture is either mid or post trib. What say you to these verses? Am I seeing them wrong? Who can logically explain them away?
 
well then. what of the failure to mention the church after the chapters 4?

if the a/c is here and sets up the temple via treaty or what not.

where is the church? surely they would see through him and not follow.

keep in mind in isreal the a/c will be set up as the messiah.
 
well then. what of the failure to mention the church after the chapters 4?

if the a/c is here and sets up the temple via treaty or what not.

where is the church? surely they would see through him and not follow.

keep in mind in isreal the a/c will be set up as the messiah.

ok, failure to mention the church after rev 4 is a good point, although i'm not sure that we can say the saints who go through the tribulation does not include the church who will still be here. so yes, that is something to consider. but what of THESE verses i've quoted? how do you explain them?
 
ok, failure to mention the church after rev 4 is a good point, although i'm not sure that we can say the saints who go through the tribulation does not include the church who will still be here. so yes, that is something to consider. but what of THESE verses i've quoted? how do you explain them?

well then we have a choice my young pandawan.

the war i have called you battle over,lol
or this thread. both are good topics. i prefer the former one as that wasnt really by chance i brought it up.
 
well then we have a choice my young pandawan.

the war i have called you battle over,lol
or this thread. both are good topics. i prefer the former one as that wasnt really by chance i brought it up.

i know lol, i didn't SPECIFICALLY start this thread for you...i want everyone's thoughts, not just yours quasimoto ; ) i will def be commenting on our previously proposed battle, but not all night, mega drama with the "housemates" and my mom. and as usual i have to moderate b/c i'm the youngest person in the house yet the only adult lol.
 
And I REALLY hope everyone does not ignore this thread. I'll be checking dead threads for different scripture refs people have used supporting their opinions, but i want to know SPECIFICALLY what people have to say about the scriptures i have put forward here b/c they seem very clear and easily interpreted as far as i'm concerned. people will either not respond b/c they're just sick of the topic or they HAVE no retort and therefore choose to keep their heads in the sand, believing what is most pleasing to them rather than closely examining what the scriptures have to say.
 
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