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A New Twist On An Old Debate...Evolution

Moseme

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Yes, the book I have includes the Egyptian accounts. The greek accounts are merely recasted Akkadian and other ANE myths as well as Egyptian myths. You see, the gods of old were bound to geographic locations and when they crossed boarders, they simply merged with existing God's. Do you recall when Jacob was running from Esau and he had a dream of angles accending and decending? Do you recall what he says? Surely you are in this place. Jacob then makes a deal with God that if God kept him safe in the foreign land, then he would serve God. Our God was showing Jacob that He wasn't confined to any geographic location And how much more when God entered Egypt.

Genesis 1 is a priestly account and was written from a temple perspective. God is called El and Elohim. El is singular and in cultural reference, El is the Title for the singular God of the Pantheon. Elohiem is the title for the head when He is ruling over the Pantheon. Hence, Lord of Lord's, God of gods. Deuteronomy 10:17. Within it's cultural context, our God is proclaiming that He is above all the other God's. There is no God higher than our God.

Genesis 2 is considered a Yawistic text because God's name YHVH is used. It is the angle of how God personally interacts with his creation.

Genesis 1 lays out that our God is creator and sustainer of all things. He is all powerful and sovereign over all of creation. Genesis 2 shows us how our all powerful God interacts with his creation. It's more personable I guess you could say.

Genesis 1 and 2 combined act as an apologetic response to the surrounding cultures with their God's and myths.



Yes, I struggled with intellectual pride myself. But God has a way of cutting you down at the knees and bringing you low. Job was such a man and there is much from Job we can learn spiritually. Humility can beca rare commodity on forums. If I ever become prideful please let me know.


There are slight differences and I think you misunderstand me. You say I day God is order and God is light. Thus God is limited. That's not what I'm saying.

Isaiah 45:7​

King James Version​

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Does this passage make our God an evil God? One could misunderstand this passage if they don't know God's nature and how God interacts with his creation ( Genesis 2).

Isaiah 5:20​

King James Version​

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Keep this passage in mind while you read 45:7

Darkness is the absence of light. Genesis 1 shows our God created order where there is chaos. The absence of order is chaos. Thus goodness is created. Evil is not created. Instead, evil is the absence of goodness. How then can God be present in his absence ( how does God create evil and darkness if He is a good God).



I don't imagine God, because I know God. He lives within me and guides my steps. I know His voice and I experience His presence. He has brought peace to my troubled soul and I experience the joy that only comes through Him.

Deuteronomy 30
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Did Levi pay a tithe to Melchisedec?
First thanks for explaining priestly and yahwistic accounts to me. I find it is an interesting take on it at the least.

Second, when I say how do you imagine God I mean how do you imagine his form, his boundaries?

Ok my entire point is that God is EVERYWHERE and because of that chaos could not exist until it was created out of order. To say that at first there was God and there was also chaos which was not apart of God, does indeed put a limitation on God because you are saying that there was something (this case chaos or darkness) separate from God that was able to exist without God. No for God to be infinite and all powerful there could have been nothing except him before creation. And because of that everything that is created had to be created from order. The chaos and darkness that we see in verse 2 had to be created from order and light.

Now on to your verse Isaiah 45:7 about God creating darkness and evil. I could be wrong but the only answer that I could think of for explaining that is that he created us with the ability to also create and we create darkness and evil. It's the same reasoning that I see in exodus when at one point God said he would kill the first born sons but in reality it was the destroyer who killed them. And so I do not believe that God is responsible for the chaotic state of earth in genesis 1:2 as I stated earlier there was a rebellion. Satan and those who chose to follow him created the chaos. Or the initial chaos at least. The judgment that flooded and destroyed the earth could have come from God or another agent like again with the example of the first born son being killed.

Also, I don't get what you are implying with Levi and melchizedek (the answer is yes). Are you implying that the king of tyre could have went into the Temple while he was yet in the loins of his ancestor? No. Solomon's temple had not been built yet. Moses' tabernacle would have only let lefties in. And being in Adam's loins in the garden would apply to everyone of us and would make using it as a description for anyone specific pointless. But maybe that's by what you were trying to say.

Anyways I really want to ask if you believe in aliens. Specifically ancient aliens.
 

stovebolts

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Anyways I really want to ask if you believe in aliens. Specifically ancient aliens.
Sorry for the delay in response. I work from home and got hammered with a project I had to devote my time too. I’ve been working 13-16 hour days with the exception of wed where I only worked 5 hours and yesterday, thanksgiving. I hope to wrap my project up today, after I reply.

Aliens... I don’t see why there can’t be life on other planets, but it’s not where my focus or energies are. As far as the History Channels Ancient Aliens, I don’t give it much credence and I find myself either laughing at their commentary or scoffing over it lol.

Second, when I say how do you imagine God I mean how do you imagine his form, his boundaries?
Honestly, I’ve never really thought of God in those terms. Instead, I see God as the one who sets the boundaries. Ie , though shall not eat of the tree of good and evil. Or better yet Job 38

Ok my entire point is that God is EVERYWHERE and because of that chaos could not exist until it was created out of order.
I think this is where our reasoning differs and as I’ve alluded to. Samuel Lucien Terrien discusses this conundrum in his theology, “Presence in Absence”.
Psalm 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins and blot out my guilt.
And verse 11. Cast me not away from thy presence. And take not the Spirit of thy holiness away from me.
Restore unto me the mirth of thy rescue and let the Spirit of nobility uphold me.
In summary, it’s a narrative of exile where indeed scripture discusses that God is not present everywhere yet theologically, God is very much present in his absence.

Going back to creation, God speaks creation into existence. Chapter 1 affirms that our God is a God of order. Exegetically, from a historical context, Genesis 1 rebuttals the surrounding ancient myths that the Gods created earth and all things on earth in a state of chaos. What the first three chapters paint a picture of is how willful disobedience shatters that order. In its simplest form, It’s about exile and a hope of restoration. This is the main theme of the biblical texts which repeats itself many times with increasing complexity.

To simplify my view, chaos is the absence of order. God creates order and he empowers His creation to create order. In this way, God shapes the light. Chaos is the absence of order. when God creates darkness, it is through His creative absence. In other words, God does not speak chaos into existence as we see order being spoken into existence.
 

stovebolts

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lso, I don't get what you are implying with Levi and melchizedek (the answer is yes). Are you implying that the king of tyre could have went into the Temple while he was yet in the loins of his ancestor? No. Solomon's temple had not been built yet. Moses' tabernacle would have only let lefties in. And being in Adam's loins in the garden would apply to everyone of us and would make using it as a description for anyone specific pointless. But maybe that's by what you were trying to say.
Here is what I am alluding to.
1 Kings 7. Please read and study there chapters.
13 King Solomon sent to Tyre and brought Huram,14 whose mother was a widow from the tribe of Naphtali and whose father was from Tyre and a skilled craftsman in bronze. Huram was filled with wisdom, with understanding and with knowledge to do all kinds of bronze work. He came to King Solomon and did all the work assigned to him.

48 Solomon also made all the furnishings that were in the Lord’s temple:

the golden altar;
the golden table on which was the bread of the Presence;
49 the lampstands of pure gold (five on the right and five on the left, in front of the inner sanctuary);
the gold floral work and lamps and tongs;
50 the pure gold basins, wick trimmers, sprinkling bowls, dishes and censers;
and the gold sockets for the doors of the innermost room, the Most Holy Place, and also for the doors of the main hall of the temple.

where did the wisdom, skill and materials to build the temple come from?

1 Kings 9
10 At the end of twenty years, during which Solomon built these two buildings—the temple of the Lord and the royal palace— 11 King Solomon gave twenty towns in Galilee to Hiram king of Tyre, because Hiram had supplied him with all the cedar and juniper and gold he wanted.12 But when Hiram went from Tyre to see the towns that Solomon had given him, he was not pleased with them. 13 “What kind of towns are these you have given me, my brother?” he asked. And he called them the Land of Kabul,[d] a name they have to this day. 14 Now Hiram had sent to the king 120 talents[e] of gold.

Solomon mistreated the King of Tyre, which strains Their relationship.

Please notice that the King of Tyre was very much inside the Temple. He provided the wisdom, craftsmanship and materials to build the temple, including the Holy places and their heavenly objects the Priests used in worship.

Again, Ezekiel was a priest who served in Solomons Temple and would have written mainly in a Genesis 1 form. Please read Ezekiel 26 with 1 Kings 9 in mind. Both of these chapters will give you insight into Chapter 28 and hopefully you will be able to see that the King of Tyre was very much present in the Temple.

Furthermore, the Temple represents Eden. It is a place where humanity and God walk in harmony.
 

stovebolts

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t's the same reasoning that I see in exodus when at one point God said he would kill the first born sons but in reality it was the destroyer who killed them.
God was executing judgment on Pharoah and those who followed Pharoah. Pharoah claimed to be the sole giver and taker of life and not only saw himself as A GOD, but THE GOD who was above all other gods.
 

Moseme

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Sorry for the delay in response. I work from home and got hammered with a project I had to devote my time too. I’ve been working 13-16 hour days with the exception of wed where I only worked 5 hours and yesterday, thanksgiving. I hope to wrap my project up today, after I reply.

Aliens... I don’t see why there can’t be life on other planets, but it’s not where my focus or energies are. As far as the History Channels Ancient Aliens, I don’t give it much credence and I find myself either laughing at their commentary or scoffing over it lol.


Honestly, I’ve never really thought of God in those terms. Instead, I see God as the one who sets the boundaries. Ie , though shall not eat of the tree of good and evil. Or better yet Job 38


I think this is where our reasoning differs and as I’ve alluded to. Samuel Lucien Terrien discusses this conundrum in his theology, “Presence in Absence”.
Psalm 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins and blot out my guilt.
And verse 11. Cast me not away from thy presence. And take not the Spirit of thy holiness away from me.
Restore unto me the mirth of thy rescue and let the Spirit of nobility uphold me.
In summary, it’s a narrative of exile where indeed scripture discusses that God is not present everywhere yet theologically, God is very much present in his absence.

Going back to creation, God speaks creation into existence. Chapter 1 affirms that our God is a God of order. Exegetically, from a historical context, Genesis 1 rebuttals the surrounding ancient myths that the Gods created earth and all things on earth in a state of chaos. What the first three chapters paint a picture of is how willful disobedience shatters that order. In its simplest form, It’s about exile and a hope of restoration. This is the main theme of the biblical texts which repeats itself many times with increasing complexity.

To simplify my view, chaos is the absence of order. God creates order and he empowers His creation to create order. In this way, God shapes the light. Chaos is the absence of order. when God creates darkness, it is through His creative absence. In other words, God does not speak chaos into existence as we see order being spoken into existence.
And david said that even if he made his bed in hell God would be there. There is a difference between God's omnipresence and the presence of God in a relationship and the verses that you offered would be discussing his relationship.

I do agree that willful disobedience shattered the order of a perfect earth that God created. That's one of the reasons why I believe that disobedience was needed for the earth to be in the chaotic state that we find it in verse 2.

I also find the show ancient aliens funny and impossible to take seriously. From both a scientific and biblical viewpoint aliens like we believe do not exist. Though technically angels would be extraterrestrial life. I can see fallen angels presenting themselves to early humanity as gods and sharing information with them.
 

for_his_glory

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Funny thing is I did not know this theory existed when I came upon it in the bible. I also knew the earth to be way older and every church that I had ever been to believed in a young earth creation. I thought the only choices were atheism and evolution or God and young earth creationism. I started to lean towards atheism until I realized that macro-evolution was extremely implausible and the fine tuning of the universe screamed that it had a creator. I was very confused there was a creator like the bible said but the creation we observe didnt seem to match with what genesis told us. So I was confused for a very long time until I became a Christian ans had alot of time to read. And I really enjoyed reading about angels so Isaiah 14 really held my attention. But I began to start asking when this rebellion happened. Long story short I came up with this rebellion theory. I was honestly a little disappointed that I hadnt come up with anything new and that this theory had been around for a minute. Anyways long story short this rebellion doesn't really concern us to much except we have to deal with fallen angels and so there is not a whole lot about this celestial rebellion in the bible. That said I have a responsibility to seek out the truth amd believe what the evidence is pointing at. A topic like this has very, very little to do with salvation so believing the wrong theory is no big deal unless it leads you away from God like atheism. I just sincerely believe that this theory has the most cohesive evidence.
In the beginning - who knows when the beginning was in past years from today.

Six days God created all things and saw they were good - 6 days are that of God's timing that I do not think we can understand in the Spiritual realm of time.

It states in Genesis "and the evening and the morning" but this to IMO is of God's timing as not being the same as our 24hr day.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.



Since the beginning of Gods creation of the heavens and earth in Genesis chapter one there has been an adversary that separates us from God through deceit, temptations and lies. This adversary has many names which include: Lucifer (could be a dual referent to Isaiah 14:12, but no mention in scripture as to, or even if God gave him a name), Satan, Devil, Beelzebub, Belial, Adversary, Dragon, Serpent and I’m sure a few others, but the important thing is who this being is and what purpose did he have and still has in heaven and earth. How did he come into existence in the first place and why was he not destroyed for his evil! Let us go and search the word of God for the answers.

God is a Spirit without form and the Lord made his angels spirits without form also. From these two scriptures below in John and Psalms we see that the inhabitants of heaven are not flesh and blood, but spirits created by God that cannot be destroyed by physical death, thus the term spiritual death that separates us from God. This is why Satan could never be physically destroyed.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Psalms 104:4 who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Satan was created perfect in all his ways with beauty, wisdom and freewill. God placed him as the guardian or protector over the throne of God in heaven. He was entrusted with many possessions and found much favor in the Lord.

God created the earth and saw that it was good and he took Lucifer from Gods Holy Mountain and set him over the Garden of Eden as a covering cherub to watch over and enjoy all that was of God. As Lucifer was set in the garden iniquity was soon found in him as he defiled Gods sanctuary through pride in his own beauty and deceit as he wanted all that was of Gods here on earth to be his own as he tried to make his throne above the angels and be God.

Because iniquity was found in him God cast him and those angels who chose to follow him out of his holy mountain and cast them all down to earth to be trampled of all nations. The only reference in scripture that denotes there being one third of the angels falling with Satan is in Revelation 12:9.
(Ref: Read Ezekiel Chapter 28 Prince of Tyrus – another dual referent)

Satan was cast down to the earth and became the ruler of iniquity over it before the creation of man which is why he had the power and right to give the kingdoms of the world over to Christ. Satan corrupted the nations until there was no righteous person found except Noah. Even after Satan was cast down to the ground he still vowed that he would ascend back into heaven and take his place on the throne and be like the most high.

Since Satan is known as the god of this world and the prince of the powers of the air he has access to the throne of God to accuse the saints of God as Jesus makes intercession for them. Satan has no authority in heaven as he lost that privilege, but was cut down to earth and through his hatred and anger of God now uses his deceit to separate man from God by stealing the word of God from them thus stealing their faith in God.
 

stovebolts

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And david said that even if he made his bed in hell God would be there. There is a difference between God's
Technically, I believe that's grave, not hell. Israel only knew of the grave during David's reign. Hell (Gehenna) derived from Solomon and the Valley of Hinnom. 1 Kings 11:7-8. Yes, Solomon brought child sacrifice into Israel.

Please explain to me the difference between God's presence and Omnipresence?

Is it possible were saying the same thing? IOW God's presence in absence?
 

Edward

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Six days God created all things and saw they were good - 6 days are that of God's timing that I do not think we can understand in the Spiritual realm of time.

It states in Genesis "and the evening and the morning" but this to IMO is of God's timing as not being the same as our 24hr day.

I think we can. Scripture says 100 years to us is like 1 day to the Lord (spiritual realm). So I did the math and it works out to...1 hour to the Lord is equal to 41 years to us. So if you pray and ask the Lord a question, and He says, wait a minute...it could be awhile! Lol.

But I agree and think you are correct that all of that evening & the morning talk in the text is telling us that he means our 24 hour days.

And everyone agrees that, the universe is expanding (being stretched?) and that the Lord said that He stretched out the heavens. And I also think that could account for how time is slowing down and speeding up like they say it is.. And why it's different depending on where one is in the universe and how fast they are traveling.

I'm no physicist but I could play one on TV...at least better than that Neil Degrasse guy who sounds like a kook. Lol
 

for_his_glory

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Now on to your verse Isaiah 45:7 about God creating darkness and evil. I could be wrong but the only answer that I could think of for explaining that is that he created us with the ability to also create and we create darkness and evil. It's the same reasoning that I see in exodus when at one point God said he would kill the first born sons but in reality it was the destroyer who killed them.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus 12:23-32 , being the tenth plague, mentions nothing of a separate destroyer that God sends, but that it was God, himself, that passed over Egypt at midnight killing all the first born of the Egyptians. The destroyer is death, although God can use His angels as destroyers as in Genesis 3:24 and 2 Samuel 24:12-17.

The Tenth Plague: Death of the Firstborn
Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

Exo 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
Exo 12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
 

for_his_glory

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I think we can. Scripture says 100 years to us is like 1 day to the Lord (spiritual realm). So I did the math and it works out to...1 hour to the Lord is equal to 41 years to us. So if you pray and ask the Lord a question, and He says, wait a minute...it could be awhile! Lol.

But I agree and think you are correct that all of that evening & the morning talk in the text is telling us that he means our 24 hour days.

And everyone agrees that, the universe is expanding (being stretched?) and that the Lord said that He stretched out the heavens. And I also think that could account for how time is slowing down and speeding up like they say it is.. And why it's different depending on where one is in the universe and how fast they are traveling.

I'm no physicist but I could play one on TV...at least better than that Neil Degrasse guy who sounds like a kook. Lol
Somethings just have no definite answers and makes us scratch our heads :shrug:confused
 

Edward

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Somethings just have no definite answers and makes us scratch our heads :shrug:confused

I know. Sometimes questions I ask Him go either totally unanswered or else He is vague about it. Some things it seems like He just wont talk about! I'm prolly just not ready to receive the answer yet and He knows it. Or else, I am to figure it out and it is a test. Maybe?
 

Edward

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Somethings just have no definite answers and makes us scratch our heads :shrug:confused

Yeah, like when the rapture will happen. No one except the Father knows...why is that?

I *think* it is because He wanted to be able to do it either sooner or later depending on when & if His people repent and pray. I have heard that we have been given an extension of the rapture already...because of God's mercy and Grace and it will be a bigger harvest if He gives us more time...I think, lol.
 

for_his_glory

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Yeah, like when the rapture will happen. No one except the Father knows...why is that?

I *think* it is because He wanted to be able to do it either sooner or later depending on when & if His people repent and pray. I have heard that we have been given an extension of the rapture already...because of God's mercy and Grace and it will be a bigger harvest if He gives us more time...I think, lol.
If you are talking about a pretrib rapture I do not believe in that theory. In Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus gave us the sign of His coming, but yet in vs. 36, 37 Jesus also tells us no one knows the day or the hour, but like in the days of Noah He will come in like a flood as the kingdoms of this world will become His as He destroys all the abominations to God here on earth and then all things will be made new again.
 

Moseme

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In the beginning - who knows when the beginning was in past years from today.

Six days God created all things and saw they were good - 6 days are that of God's timing that I do not think we can understand in the Spiritual realm of time.

It states in Genesis "and the evening and the morning" but this to IMO is of God's timing as not being the same as our 24hr day.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.



Since the beginning of Gods creation of the heavens and earth in Genesis chapter one there has been an adversary that separates us from God through deceit, temptations and lies. This adversary has many names which include: Lucifer (could be a dual referent to Isaiah 14:12, but no mention in scripture as to, or even if God gave him a name), Satan, Devil, Beelzebub, Belial, Adversary, Dragon, Serpent and I’m sure a few others, but the important thing is who this being is and what purpose did he have and still has in heaven and earth. How did he come into existence in the first place and why was he not destroyed for his evil! Let us go and search the word of God for the answers.

God is a Spirit without form and the Lord made his angels spirits without form also. From these two scriptures below in John and Psalms we see that the inhabitants of heaven are not flesh and blood, but spirits created by God that cannot be destroyed by physical death, thus the term spiritual death that separates us from God. This is why Satan could never be physically destroyed.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Psalms 104:4 who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Satan was created perfect in all his ways with beauty, wisdom and freewill. God placed him as the guardian or protector over the throne of God in heaven. He was entrusted with many possessions and found much favor in the Lord.

God created the earth and saw that it was good and he took Lucifer from Gods Holy Mountain and set him over the Garden of Eden as a covering cherub to watch over and enjoy all that was of God. As Lucifer was set in the garden iniquity was soon found in him as he defiled Gods sanctuary through pride in his own beauty and deceit as he wanted all that was of Gods here on earth to be his own as he tried to make his throne above the angels and be God.

Because iniquity was found in him God cast him and those angels who chose to follow him out of his holy mountain and cast them all down to earth to be trampled of all nations. The only reference in scripture that denotes there being one third of the angels falling with Satan is in Revelation 12:9.
(Ref: Read Ezekiel Chapter 28 Prince of Tyrus – another dual referent)

Satan was cast down to the earth and became the ruler of iniquity over it before the creation of man which is why he had the power and right to give the kingdoms of the world over to Christ. Satan corrupted the nations until there was no righteous person found except Noah. Even after Satan was cast down to the ground he still vowed that he would ascend back into heaven and take his place on the throne and be like the most high.

Since Satan is known as the god of this world and the prince of the powers of the air he has access to the throne of God to accuse the saints of God as Jesus makes intercession for them. Satan has no authority in heaven as he lost that privilege, but was cut down to earth and through his hatred and anger of God now uses his deceit to separate man from God by stealing the word of God from them thus stealing their faith in God.
Ok you wrote a lot and I'm going respond to all of it. I have heard of the 1 day equalling 1000 years explanation. The problem is that there is nothing within genesis to indicate that this is the case for the 6 days of creation. And if we are just going to assign a thousand years because it calls for days the we are just as justified in saying that Jesus spent 3000 years in the tomb before rising from the dead. Also the day night cycles of those 6 days pretty much confirms 24 hour days.

As for angels, there is nothing in scripture signifying that spirits have no form. We think that they are formless incorporal beings because of how the secular world has shaped how we define spirits. But really calling an angel a spirit is just saying that they are supernatural and exist about our fallen nature. And there are plenty of references depicting angels as having a form and even being bound by objects such as chains. Last evidence as to angels having form would be Jesus saying that we will be like the angels when we are resurrected and then he was resurrected and showed us that he had a flesh and bone body (but no blood). So yea I believe spirits have a physical form. I believe that it is a supernatural form existing on a higher plane of existence and that we cannot fully perceive their entire complex form with our natural senses. But still a form.

And while I agree God is not bound by time not being bound by anything. Angels on the other hand are bound by time as some has to wait a season. Though being fully aware of how they are eternal they probably have a different philosophy when contemplating time than we do. The only reason we experience physical death is because we have fallen from a higher plane of existence where death does not occur.

On to Satan. When God created Adam he gave Adam dominion over the earth. The only reason Satan is considered ruler of earth now is because Adam gave that dominion to Satan when he fell and humanity has been decieved. We do not realize that we are the legitimate rulers and Satan a false ruler, and usurper. I mean Jesus had to come as a man and recover the authority that God gave us and give it back to us but most of us still do not believe that we have authority. So God gave Adam authority ober all the earth. And if god were to ever give Satan authority it would have had to have happened before creating Adam and Satan would have had to rebel and lost this authority before Adam was created. So Satan's rule over earth and rebellion from God had to have happened before the 6th day and as we can see these are in fact literal days.
 

Moseme

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Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus 12:23-32 , being the tenth plague, mentions nothing of a separate destroyer that God sends, but that it was God, himself, that passed over Egypt at midnight killing all the first born of the Egyptians. The destroyer is death, although God can use His angels as destroyers as in Genesis 3:24 and 2 Samuel 24:12-17.

The Tenth Plague: Death of the Firstborn
Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

Exo 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
Exo 12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
The destroyer is mentioned in verse 23. God said that he will not suffer the destroyer to come in and smite. So we see the destroyer is something separate from God. And I guess that we can say maybe the destroyer is just death but god seems to be talking about a sentient person. And we know of 2 angels that could very well fit the role of destroyer. One being Satan who come to steal kill and destroy, the other being apollyon whose name literally means destroyer.


The difference between God's presence and his omnipresence. Honestly the best that I can do is give you my personal belief that doesn't have much scriptural backing because the bible is relatively mute about the physical nature of God. As such if you don't like it then through my theory away lol. But I start out believing that god is infinite and has no limits. That there is no place that God is not at because he has no boundaries to stop him from being there. As such I believe that everything that god created was created from his being and is still apart of him. (This is not to be confused with pantheism which states because god is in every thing that everything is god). There is still a big difference between creator and creation, primarily creation has limits placed on it while the creator is still limitless and infinite. This helps we understand how god could know everything and have power over everything because everything created is a part of him. And it shows how he can be omnipresent. Now God did want to interact with his creation so he manifests to his creation as people, 3 people spefically (kind of like divine avatars). When I speak of God's presence as opposed to his omnipresence I am speaking of enjoying the presence of these 3 in a relationship with them. I hope I did a good job of stating this clearly.
 

Moseme

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If you are talking about a pretrib rapture I do not believe in that theory. In Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus gave us the sign of His coming, but yet in vs. 36, 37 Jesus also tells us no one knows the day or the hour, but like in the days of Noah He will come in like a flood as the kingdoms of this world will become His as He destroys all the abominations to God here on earth and then all things will be made new again.
pretribulation versus pretribulation rapture is a subject that I used to have an opinion on but over there years found out that I dont anymore. I no longer know or care which it is. And I have forgotten all of the biblical evidence that I used to use to support my former opinion. I just find that funny. Because I normally always have an opinion.
 

for_his_glory

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pretribulation versus pretribulation rapture is a subject that I used to have an opinion on but over there years found out that I dont anymore. I no longer know or care which it is. And I have forgotten all of the biblical evidence that I used to use to support my former opinion. I just find that funny. Because I normally always have an opinion.
We can have many opinions, but when we search the scriptures the Holy Spirit will always reveal truth as He brings light to that which we did not understand.
 

for_his_glory

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The destroyer is mentioned in verse 23. God said that he will not suffer the destroyer to come in and smite. So we see the destroyer is something separate from God. And I guess that we can say maybe the destroyer is just death but god seems to be talking about a sentient person. And we know of 2 angels that could very well fit the role of destroyer. One being Satan who come to steal kill and destroy, the other being apollyon whose name literally means destroyer.


The difference between God's presence and his omnipresence. Honestly the best that I can do is give you my personal belief that doesn't have much scriptural backing because the bible is relatively mute about the physical nature of God. As such if you don't like it then through my theory away lol. But I start out believing that god is infinite and has no limits. That there is no place that God is not at because he has no boundaries to stop him from being there. As such I believe that everything that god created was created from his being and is still apart of him. (This is not to be confused with pantheism which states because god is in every thing that everything is god). There is still a big difference between creator and creation, primarily creation has limits placed on it while the creator is still limitless and infinite. This helps we understand how god could know everything and have power over everything because everything created is a part of him. And it shows how he can be omnipresent. Now God did want to interact with his creation so he manifests to his creation as people, 3 people spefically (kind of like divine avatars). When I speak of God's presence as opposed to his omnipresence I am speaking of enjoying the presence of these 3 in a relationship with them. I hope I did a good job of stating this clearly.
The angel who is called Apollyon/Abaddon in Rev 9:11 was sent by God for His purpose to have this angel open the pit and rule over these locust as they were commanded not to kill any man, but to only torment them to where they would want to die, but could not. This angel according to Rev 9:11 was never previously bound/imprisoned in the pit, but was the angel of the bottomless pit. Many think that since the name means destroyer in the Hebrew that this is an evil angel that Satan uses in Rev 9 at the 5th trumpet. If this was an evil angel why would Satan use him to torment those who are already his?


Apollyon/Abaddon is a Hebrew word which means destruction/destroyer as God used this angel in Exodus 12:23; 1 Chronicles 21:15-18; 1 Corinthians 10:10; Hebrews 11:28; Rev 9:11.

We know God is Spirit and does not have flesh and bones, but we can see the physical nature of God found in all that He created. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead
 

for_his_glory

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Ok you wrote a lot and I'm going respond to all of it. I have heard of the 1 day equalling 1000 years explanation. The problem is that there is nothing within genesis to indicate that this is the case for the 6 days of creation. And if we are just going to assign a thousand years because it calls for days the we are just as justified in saying that Jesus spent 3000 years in the tomb before rising from the dead. Also the day night cycles of those 6 days pretty much confirms 24 hour days.

As for angels, there is nothing in scripture signifying that spirits have no form. We think that they are formless incorporal beings because of how the secular world has shaped how we define spirits. But really calling an angel a spirit is just saying that they are supernatural and exist about our fallen nature. And there are plenty of references depicting angels as having a form and even being bound by objects such as chains. Last evidence as to angels having form would be Jesus saying that we will be like the angels when we are resurrected and then he was resurrected and showed us that he had a flesh and bone body (but no blood). So yea I believe spirits have a physical form. I believe that it is a supernatural form existing on a higher plane of existence and that we cannot fully perceive their entire complex form with our natural senses. But still a form.

And while I agree God is not bound by time not being bound by anything. Angels on the other hand are bound by time as some has to wait a season. Though being fully aware of how they are eternal they probably have a different philosophy when contemplating time than we do. The only reason we experience physical death is because we have fallen from a higher plane of existence where death does not occur.

On to Satan. When God created Adam he gave Adam dominion over the earth. The only reason Satan is considered ruler of earth now is because Adam gave that dominion to Satan when he fell and humanity has been decieved. We do not realize that we are the legitimate rulers and Satan a false ruler, and usurper. I mean Jesus had to come as a man and recover the authority that God gave us and give it back to us but most of us still do not believe that we have authority. So God gave Adam authority ober all the earth. And if god were to ever give Satan authority it would have had to have happened before creating Adam and Satan would have had to rebel and lost this authority before Adam was created. So Satan's rule over earth and rebellion from God had to have happened before the 6th day and as we can see these are in fact literal days.
Sorry about the length as it is a lot to take in. It's hard for me to just write a little at a time as I'm use to full context of scripture to explain my understanding.

There is nothing in Genesis that would indicate a day as a 1000 years and yes, it gives days as night and morning, but not morning and night so this I can only ponder on the age of the earth.

Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry. Angels also express emotions (Luke 15:10), are wise (2 Samuel 14:20) and powerful (Psalms 103:20).

Some angels are bound by time like the four angels in the river Euprates that God will release in His timing, Rev 9:14-21.

Jesus now speaks to the angel with the sixth trumpet and commands him to let loose the four angels that are bound in the Euphrates River that have been prepared by God for the hour, day, month and year of His angry indignation against those who follow after other gods. The four angels are Gods warring angels who will war against the enemies of God killing a third of mankind that refuse to repent.

John knows the number of the horsemen as he heard the number to be two hundred million. The four angels will take each to them five hundred thousand horsemen or Gods warring angels and since there are four angels that lead this army I would think they would go out to the four corners of the earth as they kill a third of the earths population.

Each horseman has a breastplate of fire, jacinth and brimstone. The breastplate represents the heart of these two hundred million warring angels that are being lead by the four angels as they are all subject to Gods will and purpose. The horse’s heads being likened unto a lions head represents strength, predatory and majesty of a ruler or king as being God in His fierce power of this particular chastisement on men. The fire, smoke and brimstone literally proceeds out of the mouths of these warring angels as we read in the literal fire of God in Exodus 9:23; 2 Kings 1:10; Numbers 11:1; 16:35; Leviticus 21:9; Psalms 104:4. By these three that are fire, smoke and brimstone a third of mankind will be killed.

There is more to this that I have written, but this is enough for this thread as this needs tobe a different topic of discussion.

Satan was created perfect in all his ways with beauty, wisdom and freewill. God placed him as the guardian or protector over the throne of God in heaven. He was entrusted with many possessions and found much favor in the Lord.

God created the earth and saw that it was good and he took Lucifer from Gods Holy Mountain and set him over the Garden of Eden as a covering cherub to watch over and enjoy all that was of God. As Lucifer was set in the garden iniquity was soon found in him as he defiled Gods sanctuary through pride in his own beauty and deceit as he wanted all that was of Gods here on earth to be his own as he tried to make his throne above the angels and be God.

Because iniquity was found in him God cast him and those angels who chose to follow him out of his holy mountain and cast them all down to earth to be trampled of all nations. The only reference in scripture that denotes there being one third of the angels falling with Satan is in Revelation 12:9.
(Ref: Read Ezekiel Chapter 28 Prince of Tyrus and Isaiah 14:12-15.
 
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