A quick look at the 4 Christian baptisms

[JLB]

That was in response to a previous post, not one in which you asked me any questions. I always answer reasonable (non-assuming) questions. If your questions contain false assumptions or assumptions not evidenced by the Scripture, I’ll point out the assumption. Such as your assumption that the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire is a single baptism/cleansing versus a cleansing/purification of our souls AND later at the Lord’s 2nd coming a cleansing/purification of our fleshy bodies for His gathering of wheat and burning up of the chaff.

I’m still waiting for the scripture that says the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, is where Jesus burns up our physical bodies.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You didn’t post any Scripture in support of your assumption that what got burned up was “things in their souls that needed cleansing and purging”, whatever that means. Regardless, they weren’t gathered into His barn that day anyway. Thus, your assumption makes no sense to me.

Nothing about “they” being gathered in the barn is stated in the scriptures.



JLB

 

[JLB]

And again, your assumption that there is one baptism (and only one) that’s being prophesied by JTB called ‘the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire’ is just that, an assumption. But here’s one of the Scriptures I’ve already posted again:

I am baptizing you with water for repentance, but the One coming after me is more powerful than me, of Whom I am not fit to carry the sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire — Whose winnowing-tool is in His hand, and He will cleanse-out His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn. But He will burn up the chaff with an inextinguishable fire”.​

Matthew 3:11-12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:11-12&version=DLNT

We ARE His wheat! Wheat caff IS the outer covering of the wheat grain. Do you agree or disagree?



What??? That we are His wheat or that He “will” burn up the wheat chaff is exactly what JTB prophesied baptism with fire “will” be? Do you disagree with either?

When I asked you; What got burned up on the day of Pentecost, your answer was let’s just say less than convincing.





You didn’t post any Scripture in support of your assumption that what got burned up was “things in their souls that needed cleansing and purging”, whatever that means. Regardless, they weren’t gathered into His barn that day anyway. Thus, your assumption makes no sense to me.

I’m still waiting for the scripture that says the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, is where Jesus burns up our physical bodies.




JLB

 

[JLB]

And again, your assumption that there is one baptism (and only one)

If you read what I have written in this thread, you would see that I teach there are 3 Baptisms.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Why don't you provide a post #?
But, do you believe there is a big difference between receiving the Spirit INSIDE for initial salvation, and receiving "the baptism with the Holy Spirit" where He comes UPON the person?
Silly question I know, for I already know your answer.
Brother, I am not making fun of you ...
but I desire that you and others understand the Truth.

I’m glad your goal is for me and others to understand the truth.

That’s a noble motive.

If we look that the scriptures about this subject, we can learn the truth.

the term “receive” the Holy Spirit, is a reference to the baptism of the Spirit.


14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17


again


And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”

So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”

4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6




JLB

 

[Senior]

The pattern for being born again, is when we believe, which is to say obey the Gospel.

Yes, but the incredible thing is that
one verse about obeying the gospel.
IMO, the gospel is an invitation only;
people are not told to obey it!
Your thoughts?

 

[Senior]

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17
again
And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

Look I must be honest ... I'm somewhat of an expert on this topic!

In Acts 8:14+, the key is the word UPON.
In 8:19, we hear that POWER had been exhibited,
which indicates the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
There's NO power involved with being born-again!
Sorry, fellow BACs.

In Acts 19:5, IMO, it is not certain if this refers to
baptism in water or the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:6 reads like the latter baptism followed after the water!
(But, verses 5 and 6 could be referring only to the latter.)

 

[JLB]

Yes, but the incredible thing is that
one verse about obeying the gospel.
IMO, the gospel is an invitation only;
people are not told to obey it!
Your thoughts?

1 verse?

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:8-17

• But they have not all obeyed the gospel

since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

• on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• in obeying the truth through the Spirit

That is how we are saved, regenerated; born again, by obeying the Gospel.

That is why it's called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:25


Faith without the work or action of obedience is dead, and can not save.


The way we obey the Gospel command, repent, is to confess Jesus as Lord.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Look I must be honest ... I'm somewhat of an expert on this topic!

That's awesome.

In Acts 19:5, IMO, it is not certain if this refers to
baptism in water or the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

I can see why you would be uncertain, because it uses the same language from Acts 10:48, that does indeed refer to water baptism.


“Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Acts 10:47-48


When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:5


However, since these guys were John the Baptist's disciples we know for sure that they indeed had been Baptized in water by John. The same John who Baptized Jesus in water.


That Baptism was certainly sufficient, and did not need to be administered again.


What these disciples of John needed, was to be Baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ by the Spirit, which comes by hearing.


In addition, they also needed the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which they also received.


In these verses, all three Baptism's are shown:

Baptized into Christ by the Spirit.
Baptism in water by man.
Jesus Baptizing with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:6

reads like the latter baptism followed after the water!
(But, verses 5 and 6 could be referring only to the latter.)

I don't believe they went and found some water deep enough to Baptize these disciples of John again, as if John's Baptism wasn't sufficient.


Jesus asked -


The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?” Matthew 21:25




JLB

 

[Senior]

That's awesome.

No it's not ... 'cause you're an expert in everything!
Isn't that what's awesome?

 

[JLB]

No it's not ... 'cause you're an expert in everything!
Isn't that what's awesome?

I meant it as a compliment.

You seem knowledgeable.

I have enjoyed your posts, and agree with 99% of what your teaching.


Probably what I don’t agree with is just semantics, and not really the content.


Let’s continue with the discussion about baptism.


I apologize for any thing I sad that isn’t conducive to a healthy discussion.



JLB

 

[Senior]

I meant it as a compliment.

I apologize for thinking you were being fasecious.
We can continue, if you wish.
Did I post my chart yet?

 

[JLB]

I apologize for thinking you were being fasecious.
We can continue, if you wish.
Did I post my chart yet?

You may have posted it, but I haven’t seen it.


Could you repost it?



JLB

 

[Senior]

1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6
------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---
Of course, not all of these things happened at every occurrence.
And IMO, not everything that did happen was reported ...
too much repetition.

 

[Senior]

My apologies ...
we have a correction to be made to the 4th baptism!
In Matthew 3:11-12 and Luke 3:16-17,
it is apparent that the baptism of fire is one of JUDGMENT.

Matthew 3:11-12
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 3:16-17
"“I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I
is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Jesus' wheat (and sheep, etc.)
will be gathered into His barn (i.e. heaven).
The chaff (and weeds/tares, etc.)
will be gathered up and cast into hell.

Here's hoping I haven't messed this up also!

 

[chessman]

Jesus' wheat (and sheep, etc.)
will be gathered into His barn (i.e. heaven).
The chaff (and weeds/tares, etc.)
will be gathered up and cast into hell.

Here's hoping I haven't messed this up also!

Wheat chaff is not weeds or tares.

 

[Senior]

Jesus' wheat (and sheep, etc.)
will be gathered into His barn (i.e. heaven).
The chaff (and weeds/tares, etc.)
will be gathered up and cast into hell.
Here's hoping I haven't messed this up also!

Somehow, I knew I had messed up!
So sorry, I meant to say ...

Jesus' wheat (and sheep, etc.)
will be gathered into His barn (i.e. heaven).

The chaff (and goats, etc.)
will be gathered up and cast into hell.

 

[stovebolts]

Somehow, I knew I had messed up!
So sorry, I meant to say ...

Jesus' wheat (and sheep, etc.)
will be gathered into His barn (i.e. heaven).

The chaff (and goats, etc.)
will be gathered up and cast into hell.

Ha! You know why they call that a senior moment lol!

 

[Senior]

Ha! You know why they call that a senior moment lol!

Not lol ... very familiar with 'em!
Dem bolts startin' ta get rusty yet?