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Abomination of Desolation in 70AD - Part 2

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Hope of glory

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Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

In Mark's account of the olivet discourse in Mark 13, we find strong contextual evidence which points to a 70AD fulfillment of the AOD and Jesus' "coming in the clouds".

Mark 13:1-4 "And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings,? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
And as he sat upon the mount of olives over against the temple, Peter James and John and Andrew asked Jim privately.
Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Notice that the disciples questions are ONLY about Jerusalems destruction and NOT about the "end of the age" as in Math.24.

"When shall these things be...."
That is, when shall every stone be thrown down (when will Jerusalem be destroyed)?
"...What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"
That is, what will signify that Jerusalems destruction is about to take place?

I submit to you that the answers to these questions are found in verses 14 and 30

The "time" when Jerusalem was destroyed was within "that (this) generation" (v30)
"...this generation shall not pass until all these things be done"

The "sign" which signified this destruction was immenent was SEEING the AOD (v14)
"But when YOU shall see the AOD.....then let them that be in Judea flee into the mountains"

The fact that Jesus says that the disciples would SEE the AOD and SEE his "coming in the
clouds" in the context of answering their questions about Jerusalems destruction is very significant.

Powerful contextual evidence indeed that the AOD and Jesus' coming in the clouds were connected to and fulfilled by 70ad

Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?

Hope of glory

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]52503[/split] by Hope of glory Titled Abomination of Desolation in 70AD
 
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christian_disable

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]52503[/split]
 

JLB

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

He does not say ALL has passed.
Are you sure that is what he says?

As for what we should characterize as junk, futurism seems to have an ultimately pessimistic view of the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice.
Could you be more specific?

Not everything has been fulfilled in scripture, there is some yet to be fulfilled.

If you want to label believers who believe the scripture as it is stated to be futurist's, then by the same definition, you are considered a Preterist.


JLB
 
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reba

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IF believing some things are to be future... What is the harm in describing that as futurism

IF one accepts the dispensational teaching what is wrong with say he is dispy

IF one believes ALL scripture has been fulfilled no harm is saying that person is a full preterist.

IF one believes as I do that some has been fulfilled and some still needs to be fulfilled I do not object to the term partial preterist.

These are not ugly labels just terms to help understand more about each other
 
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Brother Mike

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

...
Quote Originally Posted by reba View Post
He does not say ALL has passed.
If you put that 6th seal in 70ad, then everything that follows must also have been passed. You just don't pick and choose what you want to be past and not be past. That 6th seal follows a chain of events and tied to the judgment of the Lord.

If you want to label believers who believe the scripture as it is stated to be futurist's, then by the same definition, you are considered a Preterist.
I am not sure about these terms, but Jason accused me of being a Futurist though I was called by someone else a preterist for putting Rev 12 in the past. I can assure you I only do so by backing up scriptures and not using the History channel. I just believe John gave us the spiritual account of what happened when the Baby Jesus came to Earth. I believe it was a big deal for us and in the Heavens. The first 3 chapters of Rev are in the past, talking about Asia Minor but fully believe they are also warnings that stand today and are of importance for today.

Taking the 6th seal though and putting it in 70ad..... that leads to the rest................... coming of Jesus for the Post tribbers, and the gathering of the Pre-tribbers and post tribbers together (It's Where we all meet anyway no matter the view) is taking things to an extreme preterist view.

You know what they say about a Duck........ I know what a duck looks like.

Mike.
 

JLB

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the same Discourse or Teaching by The Lord Jesus privately to His disciples.

Luke 21 is a teaching in the temple area.

Mathew 24 and Mark 13 are a continuation of the public teaching in the temple area, that is being held PRIVATLY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES.

So, to answer your question, which is a desperate attempt to try and cloud the Truth of what Jesus Taught and His disciples recorded, The question is about the coming of the Lord and the end of the age.

Mark 13 is laid as to tell us that the statement by Jesus took place in the Temple -

1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Now look at the language, and how the conversation has shifted to the mount of Olives, and is in a private setting with His disciples -

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,

Now here is the problem, you assume that on that 2 1/2 hour journey on foot to the top of the mount of Olives that nothing else was said, in order to assume that the next verse was about a comment that Jesus made in the temple area.

4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?"


There was a significant amount of time between verse 2 and verse 3, on their "Sabbaths Days Journey" to the mount of Olives.

To assume that the phrase when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?" is only pertaining to the temple destruction is nonsense.

Then in light of what Matthew recorded, at the same private meeting, which states - 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Now it becomes more clear that the question when will these things be, is related to the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age, and not the destruction of the Temple, since not one single word or phrase or reference is ever mentioned again about the temple destruction or the city destruction in Matthew 24 or 25, as well as Mark 13.

Only a reference in the Temple grounds, in the hearing of the Pharisee's, is the remark about the temple destruction made.


JLB
 

Hope of glory

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IF believing some things are to be future... What is the harm in describing that as futurism

IF one accepts the dispensational teaching what is wrong with say he is dispy

IF one believes ALL scripture has been fulfilled no harm is saying that person is a full preterist.

IF one believes as I do that some has been fulfilled and some still needs to be fulfilled I do not object to the term partial preterist.

These are not ugly labels just terms to help understand more about each other
Reba

Thank you, you obviously read my posts and have a greater understanding as to what it is I'm saying. As you said, I do not believe "all is fulfilled" as Brother Mike has stated. He should ask me what I believe instead of listening to what JLB thinks I believe. So thanks for your comments, much appreciated!

Although Jesus has finished his work, the Church has barely begun hers!
 

JLB

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Although Jesus has finished his work,
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/revelation/19.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-c a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/revelation/19.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-d followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/revelation/19.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-e sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16


Do you believe this event is in the past?

Do you believe Jesus has finished this work of striking the nations, and gathering His people at the resurrection, and destroying the Lawless one with the brightness of His Coming?


JLB


 

reba

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Reba

Thank you, you obviously read my posts and have a greater understanding as to what it is I'm saying. As you said, I do not believe "all is fulfilled" as Brother Mike has stated. He should ask me what I believe instead of listening to what JLB thinks I believe. So thanks for your comments, much appreciated!

Although Jesus has finished his work, the Church has barely begun hers!
I agree , My opinion the belief that we need be rescued/raptured show very little faith in Christ, and His Work of the Cross... The 'fingers ' of the dispy view that the Church/Body of Christ is/was an after thought or plan B are still around...:sad
 

Hope of glory

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the same Discourse or Teaching by The Lord Jesus privately to His disciples.

Luke 21 is a teaching in the temple area.

Mathew 24 and Mark 13 are a continuation of the public teaching in the temple area, that is being held PRIVATLY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES.

So, to answer your question, which is a desperate attempt to try and cloud the Truth of what Jesus Taught and His disciples recorded, The question is about the coming of the Lord and the end of the age.

Mark 13 is laid as to tell us that the statement by Jesus took place in the Temple -

1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Now look at the language, and how the conversation has shifted to the mount of Olives, and is in a private setting with His disciples -

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,

Now here is the problem, you assume that on that 2 1/2 hour journey on foot to the top of the mount of Olives that nothing else was said, in order to assume that the next verse was about a comment that Jesus made in the temple area.

4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?"

There was a significant amount of time between verse 2 and verse 3, on their "Sabbaths Days Journey" to the mount of Olives.

To assume that the phrase when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be
fulfilled?"
is only pertaining to the temple destruction is nonsense.

Then in light of what Matthew recorded, at the same private meeting, which states - 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And
what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"


Now it becomes more clear that the question when will these things be, is related to the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age, and not the destruction of the Temple, since not one
single word or phrase or reference is ever mentioned again about the temple destruction or the city destruction in Matthew 24 or 25, as well as Mark 13.


Only a reference in the Temple grounds, in the hearing of the Pharisee's, is the remark about the temple destruction made.


JLB
JLB

1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down." 4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?"

Now, you said " The question is about the coming of the Lord and the end of the age."

Ha! Really?
Show me in Mark 13:1-4 where either the "end of the age" of Jesus' "coming" are mentioned!
You cant JLB, so don't ASSUME that it SHOULD BE!

You say: "To assume that the phrase when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?" is only pertaining to the temple destruction is nonsense."
Now here is the problem, you assume that on that 2 1/2 hour journey on foot to the top of the mount of Olives that nothing else was said, in order to assume that the next verse was about a comment that Jesus made in the temple area.

The only problem is that you assume MORE THAN WHAT IS WRITTEN JLB! Listen to yourself....you assume just because they walked for an hour or 2 that they talked about the "end of the age"? You ASSUME far far too much. Try staying with what is in the text regarding Mark 13.

Besides, Luke 21 was spoken in the temple area. There was no "Sabbaths days journey", so your argument totally collapses.
V5- the disciple make mention of the beautiful temple
v6 - Jesus prophesies the destruction of the temple
V7- the disciples ask "when shall these things be, and what sign will there be that these things are about to take place" (NKJV)

No "end of age" or "coming of the Lord" mentioned or inquired of.
No "sabbaths day journey" in between verses JLB, so you must abandon that "assumption"!

My question still remains unanswered:
Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?
 

Hope of glory

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Although Jesus has finished his work,
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/revelation/19.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-c a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/revelation/19.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-d followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/revelation/19.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-e sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16


Do you believe this event is in the past?

Do you believe Jesus has finished this work of striking the nations, and gathering His people at the resurrection, and destroying the Lawless one with the brightness of His Coming?


JLB


JLB

I told you, Rev.19 is not an "event". Revelation is not a "book of events" it is the Revelation (unveiling, revealing) of Jesus Christ!

Rev19 is presently being worked out as the church "puts on the Lord Jesus Christ"
John 19:30 "it is finished"!!!!......yet not yet manifested and revealed!
JLB, it's no wonder you don't understand these things, you still see Dan.9:24 as unfulfilled.....what exactly do you think Jesus accomplished on the cross???

Never mind, let's stick to the OP.
As I have shown, you have not refuted nor answered my question, please try again :)
 

Hope of glory

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Reba

Thank you, you obviously read my posts and have a greater understanding as to what it is I'm saying. As you said, I do not believe "all is fulfilled" as Brother Mike has stated. He should ask me what I believe instead of listening to what JLB thinks I believe. So thanks for your comments, much appreciated!

Although Jesus has finished his work, the Church has barely begun hers!
I agree , My opinion the belief that we need be rescued/raptured show very little faith in Christ, and His Work of the Cross... The 'fingers ' of the dispy view that the Church/Body of Christ is/was an after thought or plan B are still around...:sad
Agreed, it is Christ in his church which is the hope of Gods glory filling this earth. These living stones called the Church will never be "thrown down" as another poster has assumed.
Heb.10:12-13 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, FROM THAT TIME WAITING, UNTIL HIS ENEMIES ARE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL"

We are not waiting on Jesus, he is waiting on his Church to awake from her ignorance and to be the visible tangible expression of himself in planet earth.....the fulness of him that fills all in all!

Blessings
Hope of glory
 

JLB

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the same Discourse or Teaching by The Lord Jesus privately to His disciples.

Luke 21 is a teaching in the temple area.

Mathew 24 and Mark 13 are a continuation of the public teaching in the temple area, that is being held PRIVATLY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES.

So, to answer your question, which is a desperate attempt to try and cloud the Truth of what Jesus Taught and His disciples recorded, The question is about the coming of the Lord and the end of the age.

Mark 13 is laid as to tell us that the statement by Jesus took place in the Temple -

1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Now look at the language, and how the conversation has shifted to the mount of Olives, and is in a private setting with His disciples -

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,

Now here is the problem, you assume that on that 2 1/2 hour journey on foot to the top of the mount of Olives that nothing else was said, in order to assume that the next verse was about a comment that Jesus made in the temple area.

4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?"

There was a significant amount of time between verse 2 and verse 3, on their "Sabbaths Days Journey" to the mount of Olives.

To assume that the phrase when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be
fulfilled?" is only pertaining to the temple destruction is nonsense.

Then in light of what Matthew recorded, at the same private meeting, which states - 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And
what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Now it becomes more clear that the question when will these things be, is related to the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age, and not the destruction of the Temple, since not one
single word or phrase or reference is ever mentioned again about the temple destruction or the city destruction in Matthew 24 or 25, as well as Mark 13.

Only a reference in the Temple grounds, in the hearing of the Pharisee's, is the remark about the temple destruction made.


JLB
JLB

1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down." 4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?"

Now, you said " The question is about the coming of the Lord and the end of the age."

Ha! Really?
Show me in Mark 13:1-4 where either the "end of the age" of Jesus' "coming" are mentioned!
You cant JLB, so don't ASSUME that it SHOULD BE!

You say: "To assume that the phrase when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?" is only pertaining to the temple destruction is nonsense."
Now here is the problem, you assume that on that 2 1/2 hour journey on foot to the top of the mount of Olives that nothing else was said, in order to assume that the next verse was about a comment that Jesus made in the temple area.

The only problem is that you assume MORE THAN WHAT IS WRITTEN JLB! Listen to yourself....you assume just because they walked for an hour or 2 that they talked about the "end of the age"? You ASSUME far far too much. Try staying with what is in the text regarding Mark 13.

Besides, Luke 21 was spoken in the temple area. There was no "Sabbaths days journey", so your argument totally collapses.
V5- the disciple make mention of the beautiful temple
v6 - Jesus prophesies the destruction of the temple
V7- the disciples ask "when shall these things be, and what sign will there be that these things are about to take place" (NKJV)

No "end of age" or "coming of the Lord" mentioned or inquired of.
No "sabbaths day journey" in between verses JLB, so you must abandon that "assumption"!

My question still remains unanswered:
Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?
You erroneously try to separate Mark 13 and Matthew 24, then you try to build a doctrine on language that does not exist.

You questions have been thoroughly answered.

You look at verse's on a piece of paper and don't realize the location nor the circumstances in which those verse's are recorded.

Mark 13 is laid as to tell us that the statement by Jesus took place in the Temple -

1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" 2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Now look at the language, and how the conversation has shifted to the mount of Olives, and is in a private setting with His disciples -

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,

Now here is the problem, you assume that on that 2 1/2 hour journey on foot to the top of the mount of Olives that nothing else was said, in order to assume that the next verse was about a comment that Jesus made in the temple area.

4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?"

There was a significant amount of time between verse 2 and verse 3, on their "Sabbaths Days Journey" to the mount of Olives.

You simply can't or won't see what is being said, because all you care about is trying to make Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about 70 AD.


Revelation 19 is an event in the future that John describes for us as well as for those who he pastored.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:11-15

This is those who God brings with Jesus when He returns.

as it is written -

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17


Same event!

The Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great Glory.

Every Eye will see Him.


JLB
 
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Brother Mike

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Thank you, you obviously read my posts and have a greater understanding as to what it is I'm saying. As you said, I do not believe "all is fulfilled" as Brother Mike has stated. He should ask me what I believe instead of listening to what JLB thinks I believe. So thanks for your comments, much appreciated!
See below Brother.

I agree , My opinion the belief that we need be rescued/raptured show very little faith in Christ, and His Work of the Cross... The 'fingers ' of the dispy view that the Church/Body of Christ is/was an after thought or plan B are still around...
That is just one view Reba...... sigh.... I did post them all. I guess reading everything everyone post though would be a hard task to undertake.

Groups:

1) Confused Group: Small percent of all kinds of stuff. Such as there is no more Jewish people on the Planet, it's all passed away, the tribulation is happening now (As reported by someone, cough,
on TBN)
2) The fly away scared Group: This group fears end time events, and grabs on to some pre-trib rapture theory to clam their nerves. It's what they want to hear.

3) The Blood was not enough Group: This group is Post-Trib and believes we must taking a pounding by a disobedient Angel so Jesus can figure out who is worthy or not.

4) The hide me I am worthless, powerless, and/or scared group- Post Trib: This group believes God just hides them somewhere from all the destruction. Where? Who the heck would know.

5) The lock and load group Post Trib: This group has devil hide to skin in the end times. Onward to victory till Jesus shows up!!!

6)
The we aint there cuz Satan don't stand a chance group: Pre trib This group believes that the light in the World now is keeping Satan from working at full power. So they have to get out of the way.


Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?
The problem Hope IN Glory is that at the end Jesus said this generation includes Him coming in the clouds having said it after. They never asked about a temple also, they asked about the end of age. You just assume they wanted to know what was going down a few years from that time. Who would ask that? So, you have to have all the events, you just don't pick and choose what is convenient if you pick Jesus statement about "That Generation"

If you leave off that and just want to say some temple got knocked down, keeping the coming of Jesus in a future context then Possibly you have something. You add that generation to it, then you have to explain it all, not what you want to pick out.

Mike.
 

Hope of glory

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Thank you, you obviously read my posts and have a greater understanding as to what it is I'm saying. As you said, I do not believe "all is fulfilled" as Brother Mike has stated. He should ask me what I believe instead of listening to what JLB thinks I believe. So thanks for your comments, much appreciated!
See below Brother.


I agree , My opinion the belief that we need be rescued/raptured show very little faith in Christ, and His Work of the Cross... The 'fingers ' of the dispy view
that the Church/Body of Christ is/was an after thought or plan B are still around...
That is just one view Reba...... sigh.... I did post them all. I guess reading everything everyone post though would be a hard task to undertake.

Groups:

1) Confused Group: Small percent of all kinds of stuff. Such as there is no more Jewish people on the Planet, it's all passed away, the tribulation is happening now (As reported by someone, cough,
on TBN)
2) The fly away scared Group: This group fears end time events, and grabs on to some pre-trib rapture theory to clam their nerves. It's what they want to hear.

3) The Blood was not enough Group: This group is Post-Trib and believes we must taking a pounding by a disobedient Angel so Jesus can figure out who is worthy or not.

4) The hide me I am worthless, powerless, and/or scared group- Post Trib: This group believes God just hides them somewhere from all the destruction. Where? Who the heck would know.

5) The lock and load group Post Trib: This group has devil hide to skin in the end times. Onward to victory till Jesus shows up!!!


6)
The we aint there cuz Satan don't stand a chance group: Pre trib This group believes that the light in the World now is keeping Satan from working at full power. So they have to get out of the way.

Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the clouds" as part of his answer?
The problem Hope IN Glory is that at the end Jesus said this generation includes Him coming in the clouds having said it after. They never asked about a temple also, they asked about the end of age. You just assume they wanted to know what was going down a few years from that time. Who would ask that? So, you have to have all the events, you just don't pick and choose what is convenient if you pick Jesus statement about "That Generation"

If you leave off that and just want to say some temple got knocked down, keeping the coming of Jesus in a future context then Possibly you have something. You add that generation to it, then you have to explain it all, not what you want to pick out.

Mike.
Brother Mke

You said: "The problem Hope IN Glory is that at the end Jesus said this generation includes Him coming in the clouds having said it after. They never asked about a temple also, they asked about the end of age. You just assume they wanted to know what was going down a few years from that time. Who would ask that? So, you have to have all the events, you just don't pick and choose what is convenient if you pick Jesus statement about "That Generation"

In particular, you said "They never asked about a temple, they asked about the end of the age"

Mark 13:2-4 "...do you see these great buildings, not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down...tell us, when shall these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?

Luke 21:6-7 "These things which you see, the days will come in which not one stone will be left upon another that shall not be thrown down....Teacher, when shall these things be, and what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?

Brother Mike, in both Mark 13 and Luke 21 there is no mention or question of the "end of the age" or Jesus' "coming"!

Both discourses begin with the disciples pointing out to Jesus the "BUILDIBGS" (Mark 13:1) and the "TEMPLE" (Luke 21:5)....Jerusalem and the temple.
Next, Jesus prophesies the destruction of both the buildings (mark 13:2) and the temple (Luke 21:6)
Next, the disciples as 2 questions ONLY PERTAINING TO JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLES DESTRUCTION!

The 2 questions are almost verbatim in both discourses.

Here is the simple understanding for both discourses according to the context and conversation.

"When shall these things (Jerusalem and the temple destruction) be, and what sign will
there be when these things (Jerusalem and the temple destruction) be?

I don't just "assume they wanted to know what was going down a few years from that time"

It's obvious!!!! Jesus prophesies the cities destruction, and the disciples want to know about it....,,specifically "when" and "what sign"!.....Simple.

You asked "why would they ask that"?
Wouldn't you? If Jesus prophesied the destruction of your city would you want to know about it? Who wouldn't?

I have shown you AGAIN that there is no language of the "end of the age" or the "coming of the Lord" in the disciples questions in Mark 13:4 or Luke 21:7.
I have shown you AGAIN that the disciples only asked questions regarding Jerusalem and the temples destruction which Jesus prophesied in the previous verses.

Therefore, my question makes perfect sense and remains unanswered:

Question: Since the disciples only asked questions about a first century event (Jerusalems destruction), why would Jesus mention the "SEEING" of the AOD and his "coming in the
clouds" as part of his answer?

By the way this question still remains unanswered also:

How can both Jerusalems "surrounding and destruction" (70ad Luke 21:20) and Jesus' coming in the clouds" (Luke 31:27) be seen by one generation "this generation" (Luke 21:32)?

Oh ya, this is unswered also:

How is Ciaohas still alive to see Jesus' future "coming in the clouds of heaven"
(Math.26:64)?

Brother Mike, in the beginning of your last post you said "The problem Hope IN Glory is that at the end Jesus said this generation includes Him coming in the clouds"

That's no problem, consider the above scripture Math.26:64 ..."Hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven"

Obviously Jesus was not telling Ciaphas that he would see Jesus' future bodily return! I showed you the OT language which Jesus was quoting (Ps.110 and Dan.7) and you said that you "understood"!. Jesus is saying basically the same things to his listeners in the discourses......why can't you understand? It's the same language.

I will be happy to go over this again with you. If you can understand Math.26:64 than you can understand what "coming in the clouds" meant in the discourses as well.

Blessings

Hope of glory
 
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Deborah13

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IF believing some things are to be future... What is the harm in describing that as futurism

IF one accepts the dispensational teaching what is wrong with say he is dispy

IF one believes ALL scripture has been fulfilled no harm is saying that person is a full preterist.

IF one believes as I do that some has been fulfilled and some still needs to be fulfilled I do not object to the term partial preterist.

These are not ugly labels just terms to help understand more about each other
Oh my, and I thought I was a 'partial futurist'.
I guess I could be like Paul being Jew for the Jews and gentile for the gentiles. When discussing with a preterist, I could say I'm partial and when discussing with a futurist, I could say I'm a partial. :)
 

Deborah13

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

is taking things to an extreme preterist view.

A full preterist believes that Jesus has already come and is not coming at all in the flesh. A full preterist believes this is all there is....no New earth, no New Heaven.

I will not speak for others but I do not have that view. If my studies where to lead me to that view I'd jump ship fast and figure I was completely wrong about 70 AD and figure the dispys must be right.
 
B

Brother Mike

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

A full preterist believes that Jesus has already come and is not coming at all in the flesh. A full preterist believes this is all there is....no New earth, no New Heaven.

I will not speak for others but I do not have that view. If my studies where to lead me to that view I'd jump ship fast and figure I was completely wrong about 70 AD and figure the dispys must be right.

Thank you for once again taking my post in to kind consideration.

That generation will see these things.

What are they going to see?

Knowledge shall be increased, we run to and fro...... zip back and fourth. 1,000's of years we road the Elephant to Walmart. Even in the 1900 a Word from God told Smith Wigglesworth..... "I AM COMING SOON!!"

Now ....... it seems the Lord tarry a bit, eh? I mean 1 day is 1,000 years to the Lord, so soon could be....... a very long time.

Not really though. Though I doubt all that heard the Lord say, "I am coming soon" understood it, it was 1,000's of years that men road on Donkey to McDonalds. Not in the 1900's though, we have steam engines, then cars, then Wright Brothers then prop planes, then Jets and bless God it started then. I am coming soon!!! Knowledge was increased.

Now in that Generation the Gospel shall be preached all over the World.

Deborah, we have a full size Multi Million dollar warehouse the Lord asked us to build. It produces free CD's, to ship all over the World. We finally have the Technology for a Pastor to speak and it be translated instantly into any language. We are not the only ones. Secular TV stations are underwriting many churches to put them on the air at no cost. How is that possible? How is it possible to give out 100,000's of thousands in free CD's, shipping paid for? It's crazy.

That generation, the end of the Age............. This is not about some temple knocked over. It's coming, the last days of mankind, and our rightful place with the Lord. 30, 40 years? It goes by so quick. That generation.

We are here, at the door of this thing and it's not 70ad.......... Listen to the Holy Spirit, its right here. That generation where the Gospel hits every dark place on the planet will see the Lord coming in glory. It's not some stupid temple that gets knocked over.

Mike.
 

Deborah13

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

The problem Hope IN Glory is that at the end Jesus said this generation includes Him coming in the clouds having said it after. They never asked about a temple also, they asked about the end of age. You just assume they wanted to know what was going down a few years from that time. Who would ask that? So, you have to have all the events, you just don't pick and choose what is convenient if you pick Jesus statement about "That Generation"

John Lightfoot, wrote a commentary of the Gospels from the view if the Jews A Commentary on the New Testament From the Talmud and Hebraica ,
" John Lightfoot (March 29, 1602 – December 6, 1675) was an English churchman, rabbinical scholar, Vice-Chancellor of the University of Cambridge and ,Master" wiki quote
This is what the Jews wrote about 70 AD, Lightfoot uses a lot of OT scripture to backup the Jewish view. Including what it meant by coming in the clouds and end of the age.
Here is the link http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/lightfoot-new-testament/matthew/24.html

Mike, one would be hard pressed to find a commentary or Jewish writing that believes that Matt 24 or Daniel 9 refer to anything other than 70 AD, before the late 1800s. And the rapture is just plain not there at all period. That whole idea came from a woman by the name of McDonald in Scotland in about 1825-1830. She said she saw it in a dream. At least that is what I have read as far as where Darby got the idea from. Do some research.
 
B

Brother Mike

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Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

And the rapture is just plain not there at all period.
We are not talking about any Rapture in this thread. It's a Latin word anyway that sounds way more cooler than caught up. It's not an idea, the Day of Jesus christ is different than the day of the Lord. Both days end things. The day of the anointed, the day of the Lord......

Even so with the History, I need the History on the 6th seal...... and that generation. There is No history but a temple that might have been knocked down. That don't trump the Lord coming with Angels in the clouds with power and glory. How that get missed????, You don't pick and choose what you want in that Generation because Jesus mentioned it both times in Luke 21 and Mat 24 after all he said.

Mike.
 
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