Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

[JLB]

Hi guys mind if i join the conversation has this anything to do with Antichrist and a peace deal with Israel that's supposed to last seven years..

tob

Please join.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Hi guys mind if i join the conversation has this anything to do with Antichrist and a peace deal with Israel that's supposed to last seven years.. tob

Hey

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, So what was the abomination of desolation? When the romans came and conquered Jerusalem and stood in their temple in 70 AD?

I'm reading Daniel right now trying to piece this together as you have explained it.

(Deborah)

This is the end of the 70th week. But remember other things were determined, even till the consummation. The sacrifices did not stop in the temple until the temple was destroyed. So when did the Messiah CAUSE the sacrifice to cease in at the cross but they didn't physically stop until 70 AD. But He cause it at the cross. He also determined what would happen to the city and temple.

I'm not understanding that. If Jesus put an end to end of animal sacrifice, why were they still sacrificing in 70 AD?

The Jews that did not believe Jesus was the Messiah were still sacrificing bulls and goats and making offerings at the temple. Messiah in His death put a stop to it.
Is there any benefit in the blood of animals to man atone for man's sin? NO, not now and not then.
Jesus blood shed was the atonement for all men for all time. But as long as the temple stood the unbelieving Jews kept it up.

 

[JLB]

37 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will 38 Lo, left desolate to you is your house; Here Jesus tells them that the temple is desolate. Like spiritually dead. In Matthew 24 - Jesus tells the apostles that the temple will be destroyed. "not one stone will be left upon another" (para)

Matthew 24 does not have one single sentence that speaks about the city and sanctuary being destroyed.

His signs that He gives all lead up to His Coming and the end of the age.

Matthew 24:1-3

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.

While in the Temple grounds His disciples showed Him the buildings of the Temple!

2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Jesus made the comment about the destruction of the Temple using specific language to describe His Prediction.

However, not one single comment about this event is mentioned by Jesus throughout His whole Olivet Discourse while in a private meeting with His Disciples.

Not One!


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

The disciples asked Him When will these things be?

While in the Temple grounds, Jesus commented, Do you not see all these things. Obviously, while in the Temple grounds, you would be surrounded by the buildings of the Temple would, so the comment "see all these things", while standing in front of the Temple buildings is understandable.

Now, on the other hand, they traveled from the Temple grounds, up on the mount of Olives, away from the multitudes and the Pharisee's.

Now privately Jesus explains to them about His Coming and the end of the age, not mentioning anything about the destruction of the temple and city.

Jesus refers to Daniel, to give us understanding.

Daniel teaches the abomination of Desolation reference is after the destruction of the city and sanctuary, during the 70th week. It is associated with the resurrection of the dead.

It's also associated with the daily sacrifice and a time frame of 7 years, with specific language associated with 3 1/2 years.

Specifically during this 3 1/2 years, the daily sacrifice will be taken away and an Abomination of Desolation will be set up.

Something of that magnitude that was fulfilling a prophecy would certainly be mentioned in the book of acts, it's not mentioned.

Furthermore sacrifice and offerings continued until the city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD.

As Daniel teaches us, the Abomination of Desolation is associated with a time of trouble, even such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until this time, which totally rules out 34 AD, and the stoning of Stephen!

Daniel 9:27 says it is determined, even till the consummation. When? The 70th week approx. 34 AD. Jesus' ministry was 3 1/2 yrs. then the apostles continued to preach to the Jews, 3 1/2 yrs. after the cross, the Jews stoned Stephen (see Acts). Matt. 23 above 'stoning those sent unto thee'

As Daniel teaches us, the Abomination of Desolation is associated with a time of trouble, even such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until this time, which totally rules out 34 AD, and the stoning of Stephen!

As well as the resurrection of the dead.



JLB

 

[John 8:32]

Just a few things in Mark 13 that were not fulfilled by 70 AD...

Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Fulfilled in China? How about Mongolia? Amongst the native Americans here?

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

The Simon bar Kochba revolt in 132 was worse. Hitler's death camps were worse and Stalin murdered more people and more Jews than anyone.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

What about the Diaspora? Would they have died? Would the Mayans have all died from this event? It says ALL FLESH not just Jewish flesh.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Now contrast this with...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

If He really did return in 70 AD, that would be the original SECRET rapture.

 

[Deborah13]

So what was the abomination of desolation? When the romans came and conquered Jerusalem and stood in their temple in 70 AD?

In the Hebrew it is not one abomination (singular) it is abominations (plural).
Some people think that "on the wing of abominations" is the Roman army surrounding the city/temple. However, I don't think so. When I read Young's and what was written by the historians I think the abominations were what the Jews themselves were doing in the temple. It was not holy, it was a den of thieves, full of greed and idolatry.
KJV - " and for the overspreading H3671 of abominations H8251 he shall make it desolate,
Jesus warned them in Matthew 23 'Lo left desolate to you is your house.'
Remember that when Jesus was crucified the veil into the holy of holies was torn from the top to the bottom. It was no longer the place where the presence of the Lord lived. It was spiritually desolate (empty of the presence of God). Jesus, God in the flesh, Messiah had come.

shqutzim =

abominations
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan9.pdf
http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H8251&t=KJV

 

[Deborah13]

Matthew 24 does not have one single sentence that speaks about the city and sanctuary being destroyed.

Jesus is talking to His disciples, they point out the temple to Him how beautiful (or whatever) it is, and He says....

Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm not understanding that. If Jesus put an end to end of animal sacrifice, why were they still sacrificing in 70 AD?

Go to Bible Gateway and read Matthew Henry's Commentary on these verses. That may help you. I had to do a lot of reading and looking at the Greek and the Hebrew.

If there is another temple and they start doing animal sacrifices again, which is their plan, how can that be holy? Is the covenant made in the blood of Jesus eternal or not? If not that puts a whole lot of other scripture in question. What does Hebrews say about returning to those sacrifices mean, one has fallen from grace.

 

[Deborah13]

As Daniel teaches us, the Abomination of Desolation is associated with a time of trouble, even such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until this time, which totally rules out 34 AD, and the stoning of Stephen!

I think that we need to consider what this is in the eyes of the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. NOT our modern Christian perspective. This was an end of the whole system of blood sacrifice for sin that began in the garden. You don't think that was HUGE. And the word does not say abomination (singular) it is (plural).
JLB, please look it up in the Hebrew. I had to deal with this too. If I were to continue to think that the AOD was One abomination I would not be reading the text as it says. Do you read Hebrew and Greek? I don't, I have to rely on the one's (the scholars) who do. It is PLURAL. I'm not the first one to say this, it was pointed out on this thread, so I checked it out. Young was devoted to the literal translations of the languages and when I look at his translation of this text it lines up with the Hebrew. So unless there is a BIG mix up by many people over many thousands of years, it says what it says.
If we could agree that it says 'abominations' plural we could go from there.

 

[Deborah13]

While in the Temple grounds, Jesus commented, Do you not see all these things. Obviously, while in the Temple grounds, you would be surrounded by the buildings of the Temple would, so the comment "see all these things", while standing in front of the Temple buildings is understandable.

They were not in the temple,
Matthew 24:1-2
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus became the temple, He is the new temple is He not. He said that they would destroy Him (the temple) and He would raise it up in 3 days.

I did not say that He said this Matthew 24:1-2 on the Mt of Olives, did I?

 

[Deborah13]

Something of that magnitude that was fulfilling a prophecy would certainly be mentioned in the book of acts, it's not mentioned.

Why?

 

[Elijah674]

You all miss the point of the Loud Cry of 70 AD. Read Dan. closely! (re/read it!)

The [MIDNIGHT] CRY was given to Israel by Christ saying.. 'BEHOLD YOUR ->HOUSE<- IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE! This was done when Christ was still alive as the Second Adam!

(did you notice the different cries?) 70 AD is not what Dan said. He told in Dan. 8:13-14 the ending of the cleansing of the Sanctuary.

--Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

The Simon bar Kochba revolt in 132 was worse. Hitler's death camps were worse and Stalin murdered more people and more Jews than anyone.

Was it? That is looking at physical death and persecution yes as far as numbers of lives, etc. But...
I would rather die physically than have my beliefs in the blood covenant of Jesus destroyed.
Their whole lives were built around this system. Everything they did in their lives was part of that system even to their agriculture. And then they were displaced around the world. And it was totally destroyed. Not temporarily as before. Permanently done. And today there are those who want to bring it back, but it will never be holy again or the covenant in Jesus blood that we stand on as Christians is not eternal as the Word says it is.
Through out the OT God told them of the coming Messiah and the change in covenant, they didn't believe it when it happened and some still don't.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

So did the men of Galilee physically see Him go to heaven? No.
That is why John is asking them why they are gazing into heaven (the sky). They didn't see Him go that way so why would they expect Him to come back that way? If He is to return that way and they saw Him leave that way, why would John ask them this?

If He really did return in 70 AD, that would be the original SECRET rapture.

That could very well be true.

 

[turnorburn]

The abomination of desolation is he also referred to as the son of perdition the antichrist?

tob

 

[JLB]

Matthew 24 does not have one single sentence that speaks about the city and sanctuary being destroyed.

Jesus is talking to His disciples, they point out the temple to Him how beautiful (or whatever) it is, and He says....

Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus said this to them, in the Temple are as a response to them pointing out the Temple.

Jesus never mentions the destruction of the Temple or the destruction of the city in His Olivet Discourse which starts in verse 4.

Unless I missed it, please point out to me any language of Jesus in His Olivet Discourse, whereby He mention the destruction of the Temple or city.


JLB

 

[JLB]

While in the Temple grounds, Jesus commented, Do you not see all these things. Obviously, while in the Temple grounds, you would be surrounded by the buildings of the Temple would, so the comment "see all these things", while standing in front of the Temple buildings is understandable.

They were not in the temple,
Matthew 24:1-2
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus became the temple, He is the new temple is He not. He said that they would destroy Him (the temple) and He would raise it up in 3 days.

I did not say that He said this Matthew 24:1-2 on the Mt of Olives, did I?

They were in the Temple grounds, as the phrase indicates - and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things?

Not the Temple, but they came up to show Him the buildings of the Temple.

They were in the Temple area during this part of the discussion.

Then they had a Sabbath day's journey to the mount of Olives.

By the time they had arrived at the mount of Olives, to be isolated as to have a private discussion, away from the multitudes and the Pharisee's, who knows what they talked about on the way, as verse 3 indicates -

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

How do we know that the phrase "these things" doesn't refer to the discussion they had while traveling to their destination on the Mount of Olives?

The main point I am making to anyone who is interested in the truth of what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 is -

There is no language in Matthew 24:4 - 25:46 that mentions the destruction of the temple or the city.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Dan 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
​

Abominations is plural. There is no single abomination for which 'it' is made desolate. Further, 'it' is desolate until the consummation, so desolation is not its final state. Desolation describes a spiritual quality which invites the pouring out of God's judgement.

So, whats your point?

What year are you claiming the 70th week occured.

When are you claiming that the prince who is to come, "confirmed" a 7 year covenant with many?


JLB

26AD-33AD

The Jewish/Roman war of 66AD-73AD is a parody, separated by forty years wandering in spiritual wilderness, of Jesus' and His Apostles' seven year (70th week confirmation of the Messianic covenant) ministry to the Jewish people, whereby in the midst of that week Harrod's temple was destroyed instead of Jesus' body. Jesus bodily resurrection is paralleled by the miraculous growth of the Christian Church (spiritual body) out of the ruins of Judaism after the war.

 

[JLB]

Dan 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
​

Abominations is plural. There is no single abomination for which 'it' is made desolate. Further, 'it' is desolate until the consummation, so desolation is not its final state. Desolation describes a spiritual quality which invites the pouring out of God's judgement.

So, whats your point?

What year are you claiming the 70th week occured.

When are you claiming that the prince who is to come, "confirmed" a 7 year covenant with many?


JLB

26AD-33AD

The Jewish/Roman war of 66AD-73AD is a parody, separated by forty years wandering in spiritual wilderness, of Jesus' and His Apostles' seven year (70th week confirmation of the Messianic covenant) ministry to the Jewish people, whereby in the midst of that week Harrod's temple was destroyed instead of Jesus' body. Jesus bodily resurrection is paralleled by the miraculous growth of the Christian Church (spiritual body) out of the ruins of Judaism after the war.

26AD-33AD?

Ok, then please show from the New Testament writings, where the events of the 70th week which are:

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

The prince who is to come, confirmed a seven year covenant. Please show from the book of acts where there is a seven year covenant, and specifically with whom?

But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Please show the scriptures in the book of Acts, where the sacrifice and offerings stopped, since you say this happened in 26-33 AD.


And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

Where in the scriptures, specifically the book of Acts, where there was an abomination of Desolation set up in the Temple.

An event like that would have been earth shattering at the time and surely would have resulted in much controversy.

Luke surely would have at least mentioned something like the Abomination of Desolation in his writings, knowing it was a fulfillment of prophecy!

Furthermore, the Abomination of Desolation was the event that Jesus said would trigger the Great Tribulation, as it is written -

"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

and again -

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel 12:1,11


Please show the scriptures from the New Testament where the Great Tribulation, which is said by Jesus and Daniel, to be a time of troublesuch as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Surely the greatest time of trouble that has ever been since the world began would rate some mention somewhere in the New Testament, since you are claiming it happened no later than 33 AD.

Could you please direct us to these verse's that talk about the Great Tribulation that happened in 33 AD.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Not to be argumentative or anything, but in order to understand this and have no mistakes we need to pick it apart a little academically. So don't take offense, I'm going at this with an open mind and seeing what conclusion can be drawn from it. If we do this enough, the truth is bound to become clear at some point.

Edward, I think we are lay persons (most of us anyway) who do not read Greek and Hebrew. We have no place to argue, so I agree with you. All we can do is try our best to share what we see. Many trained scholars have faithfully tried to sort all this out over many years and they still did not and cannot come to a full agreement.

First I would ask you to read Matthew Henry's commentary for Daniel 11 for an historical view seeing we need to look at it in context we cannot pull out a few verses because it uses the same terminology and think they are relating to the same thing. 'there was/were/other, more than one time there have been abominations, destructions, for the people of the nation of Israel, they have a long history of troubles.

Daniel 11:31
And strong ones out of him stand up, and have polluted the sanctuary, the stronghold, and have turned aside the continual sacrifice, and appointed the desolating abomination.

Antiochus IV's army desecrated the Temple and stopped the daily sacrifices. December 168 BCE, the Syrians built a pagan altar over the altar of burnt offering in the Temple and placed an image of Zeus Olympius upon it. , swine's flesh was offered on the altar to Zeus.

There's a website called hearalittletherealittle.net that has a couple pages on Daniel 11 and history that is very easy to read (clear) and interesting.

 

[JLB]

Antiochus IV's army desecrated the Temple and stopped the daily sacrifices. December 168 BCE, the Syrians built a pagan altar over the altar of burnt offering in the Temple and placed an image of Zeus Olympius upon it. , swine's flesh was offered on the altar to Zeus.

So Jesus was prophesying about a future event that actually took place 168 years before He was born?

I don't think so.

JLB