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Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Hope of glory

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Brother Mike, please answer these questions honestly.

When you have done so please answer the following also:

How can a single generation (this generation) see both Jerusalems destruction (v20-a reference to 70ad) and Jesus' future return?

Thank you for your honesty and sincerity.
I wrote to you about this Brother. If anyone here is not tied up in doctrines and creeds it would be me. I hope there are
others, but I need line upon line comparisons and I need it to make sense.

Making sense is important to me, because God is not the Author of confusion. Plain and simple........................
That Generation:
Jesus makes things very specific about His Generation on Earth. (Mat 12:34) (Mark 10:30) (Luke 3:7) (Luke 11:50) so on..................

What generation is that? The generation Jesus is talking about will see...........

1) Gospel preached all over the World.
2) Jerusalem compassed with armies.
3) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains. People leaving Judaea.
4) Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles. Until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled.......
5) Earthquakes in Divers places (Topos or targeted populations)
6) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. All things in the Word must be fulfilled "ALL"

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an
hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to
generation it shall lie waste
; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

7) famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
8) there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Men see this stuff (IN) the sun, moon, stars....... It causes them fear, their hearts fail them. You can't see or noticed
Hyperbole, spiritual, or parable........... This would have been recorded!!! Somewhere..

9) they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Someone forgot to record this day also...... Oh by the way, Jesus stopped by in great glory and power, you just missed him??????????

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

This Generation will see all these things. Now I am suppose to believe that a templed getting knocked over (Not that any
of the buildings would be around anyway) was so important, more important than all the other things Israel lost, like the Wall that needed to be rebuilt, that it's mentioned several times in Isa, Zec, Joel, Rev, having fulfilled all things because someone knocked someone's temple over?
Hope in Glory, I find it just past being able to believe............. We have history of someone knocking down a temple in 70ad....... Big deal, they forgot to record the most dramatic parts.

News flash today!!!! It has happened !!!! The temple mentioned in Danial was run over by bad guys today, stay tuned for this late World breaking story...... Oh and on a side note, Jesus Stopped in to say hi after the stars, moon and sun
vanished. More breaking news on this Temple at 10!!!

What did Jesus say? They were looking at the temple, it was all Bling, bling and Jesus said what???

Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect,
precious
: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

What precious stones where taken down??????

They asked Jesus what would be the end of all things............... A temple gets knocked down??? really?

Hope in Glory, it is way to far out there for me.

Mike.
Brother Mike, you did not answer my questions, please do so, they are very simple and straight forward.

Was Jesus speaking to his first century generation (were they his listening audience) in Luke 21....Yes or No?
When Jesus said "when YOU shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies..." was he still speaking TO his contemporary first century generation....Yes or No?
According to the simple reading of the text, did Jesus tell his first century contemporary generation that THEY would see Jerusalem surrounded with armies....Yes or No?

Thank you.
Hope of glory

Was Judas Iscariot present when Jesus said when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...? Yes

Did Judas see Jerusalem surrounded by armies? No

Conclusion: Jesus message referred to those who will see both Jerusalem surrounded by armies AND the signs in the sun, moon and stars, as well as Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory.

Not just the ONE sign YOU cherry pick out of ALL that Luke 21 teaches.

ONLY Zechariah 14 has all of these signs, which is not about the events of 70 AD.

JLB
JLB

show me your proof that Judas was present in Luke 21

Furthermore, his discourse was directed at a "generation" of people (v32-his generation), he did not say "Judas iscariot will not pass away...."

So, in your mind, since Jesus spoke this TO Judas, will Judas be reincarnated and alive on planet earth to witness a future destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' future return????Lol!

JLB, by stating that Judas Iscariot "was present when Jesus said when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...", you openly confess that Jesus did in fact speak this to his own first century contemporary generation! Good job!

Therefore Luke 21:20 (as you have just admitted), is a reference to Jerusalems destruction in 70ad!
Is Jesus' first century generation still alive on earth, just waiting to see a rebuilt temple and it's subsequent destruction???
I think not!

Thank you for answering my questions which I asked brother Mike.

By the way, if Zechariah.14 is about "Jerusalems destruction" the "return of the Lord" and the "resurrection" we have some serious contradictions.
V2 "for I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle against Jerusalem and the city shall be taken...."
5 "Thus the Lord my God will come and all the saints with you"
8 "In that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem.....11 "The people shall dwell in it.....Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited"(wait a minute, I though Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 2)???
16 Judah also will fight against Jerusalem...."???
16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord if hosts, and to keep the feast if tabernacles" (why are there nations left if Jesus has come and the resurrection has taken place???? And it seems Jerusalem is still inhabited.....it thought it was destroyed????
17 "And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not cone up to Jerusalem to worship the King
 
B

Brother Mike

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5 "Thus the Lord my God will come and all the saints with you"8 "In that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem.....11 "The people shall dwell in it.....Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited"(wait a minute, I though Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 2)???
16 Judah also will fight against Jerusalem...."???
16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord if hosts, and to keep the feast if tabernacles" (why are there nations left if Jesus has come and the resurrection has taken place???? And it seems Jerusalem is still inhabited.....it thought it was destroyed????
Hope IN Glory................ Do me a favor....... Just please stop.........

Verse 2 never said the city was destroyed, but taken. what about Judah?? They still trying to figure out where it's at, however you have to stop misquoting things to make a point. This may surprise you, but I can read a little..

Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Judah fights at Jerusalem, no against. Amazing.

Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Here they are, happy together.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Rev 21:26
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

There are your other nations, there is your new city if you like. Where the heck these people come from? Who knows, but we have nations a City that needs no sun, and Jesus fully in control. There is no such thing on the Planet today.

wait a minute, I though Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 2
No............ before posting something, what can Brother Mike come up with to counter it? Do it that way so we can cover new ground.

Hope IN Glory......... Focus on "That Generation" I could care less right now about a new city, people, whatever. Get these facts out of the way for me. I am not asking for scriptures as Rev was written before 70ad we believe.

That generation.

Jesus was asked, what signs for the end of the World. (Matt 24)

The gospel preached all over the World.......................... When did we accomplish this? It's never been done, not to every nation. Heck, we are just getting the technology now to do it.

give me the links, Historical account, whatever you have to do to prove we have gotten the gospel to every single nation.

Sun, Moon, Stars......... Stars get rolled up. It's in several verses and all say stars, the bible always gives the key if it's Hyperbole, but not in this case. Like Sword means word, it's given to us. These signs in the sky made mens' hearts fail. The seas roared.

Give me the links, whatever you have to give to show me this had taken place in History somewhere.

Jesus coming in the clouds with the angels that every eye saw.


This one should be very easy for you to find, everyone saw Jesus coming in the clouds. The whole earth.......... someone would have written it down, far more important than some temple getting knocked over. Links and history of when this occurred.

Nation rise against nation......... (Not some small conflict in the Middle East)

Give me the historical account of this event tied with the temple being knocked over, and Jesus appearing after or before with the stars vanished after or before.


Give me these accounts in History like you did with some army knocking over a temple, this generation also saw these things and they would have to be recorded somewhere. What makes greater news? Temple gets knocked over? Stars vanished today?

After you have provided this evidence, then you have my attention. I am willing to allow you to use History and recorded events outside of the bible, this ought to be real easy at this point if what your saying is true.

Mike.
 

Sinthesis

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If your expectations of what it will take to fulfill a biblical prophecy are beyond what God has planned, then you will never believe the prophecy has been fulfilled. This is exactly the problem most Jews today have with Christianity. When it comes to messianic prophecy, Jews are futurists. Christians are susceptible to the same perceptive distortions with regard to apocalyptic prophecy. The clues to interpreting the last days are patterns in the OT which applied to long past generations and cultures through symbolism. This same symbolism as applied to the NT generation explains the last days and Christ's forgone victory through His church over the promised land.
 

Hope of glory

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5 "Thus the Lord my God will come and all the saints with you"8 "In that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem.....11 "The people shall dwell in it.....Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited"(wait a minute, I though Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 2)???
16 Judah also will fight against Jerusalem...."???
16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord if hosts, and to keep the feast if tabernacles" (why are there nations left if Jesus has come and the resurrection has taken place???? And it seems Jerusalem is still inhabited.....it thought it was destroyed????
Hope IN Glory................ Do me a favor....... Just please stop.........

Verse 2 never said the city was destroyed, but taken. what about Judah?? They still trying to figure out where it's at, however you have to stop misquoting things to make a point. This may surprise you, but I can read a little..

Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Judah fights at Jerusalem, no against. Amazing.

Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they
that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Here they are, happy together.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Rev 21:26
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

There are your other nations, there is your new city if you like. Where the heck these people come from? Who knows, but we have nations a City that needs no sun, and Jesus fully in control. There is no such thing on the Planet today.

wait a minute, I though Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 2
No............ before posting something, what can Brother Mike come up with to counter it? Do it that way so we can cover new ground.
Hope IN Glory......... Focus on "That Generation" I could care less right now about a new city, people, whatever. Get these facts out of the way for me. I am not asking for scriptures as Rev was written before 70ad we believe.

That generation.

Jesus was asked, what signs for the end of the World. (Matt 24)

The gospel preached all over the World.......................... When did we accomplish this? It's never been done, not to
every nation. Heck, we are just getting the technology now to do it.


give me the links, Historical account, whatever you have to do to prove we have gotten the gospel to every single nation.

Sun, Moon, Stars......... Stars get rolled up. It's in several verses and all say stars, the bible always gives the key if it's Hyperbole, but not in this case. Like Sword means word, it's given to us. These signs in the sky made mens' hearts fail. The seas roared.

Give me the links, whatever you have to give to show me this had taken place in History somewhere.

Jesus coming in the clouds with the angels that every eye saw.


This one should be very easy for you to find, everyone saw Jesus coming in the clouds. The whole earth.......... someone would have written it down, far more important than some temple getting knocked over. Links and history of when this occurred.
Nation rise against nation......... (Not some small conflict in the Middle East)

Give me the historical account of this event tied with the temple being knocked over, and Jesus appearing after or before with the stars vanished after or before.


Give me these accounts in History like you did with some army knocking over a temple, this generation also saw these things and they would have to be recorded somewhere. What makes greater news? Temple gets knocked over? Stars vanished today?

After you have provided this evidence, then you have my attention. I am willing to allow you to use History and recorded events outside of the bible, this ought to be real easy at this point if what your saying is true.

Mike.
Brother Mike

You said: "There are your other nations, there is your new city if you like. Where the heck these people come from? Who knows, but we have nations a City that needs no sun, and Jesus fully in control. There is no such thing on the Planet today. "

Answer: These people are the nations of the earth. The city is the Church (we are lighted by His glory, the natural is not our life-He is, yes, this is a present reality in the earth. (Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not true)
.....the river (Spirit) flows from the throne (the place of rule and authority) which is in the midst of the city (the church), the fruit from the tree of life (Christ) in the midst of the city (the church) is fir the healing of the nations (the deliverance of humanity)....etc, etc.!

If you can't see this is all about Christ in a people, NOW IN THE EARTH, you are missing everything......Savoirs shall come upon Mount Zion.......Brother Mike, I tell you that Saviors HAVE come upon Mount Zion!!!

I have treated each of your points thoroughly in other posts, you choose to ignore them.

Do you believe that after the resurrection Jesus will reinstitute the feast of tabernacles, which must include animal sacrifice to be observed??? "16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord if hosts, and to keep the feast if tabernacles"

If so, is seriously wrong with your covenantal understanding Brother Mike!

You said: "Hope Of Glory......... Focus on "That Generation"
To which I say OK!

Are you willing to go through each time in the N.T. that Jesus uses the phrase "this generation" (there are about 15), to determine exactly who "this generation" refers to in the olivet discourses?
If we remain consistent with our interpretation, we will have a clear answer.
I will quote each reference one by one followed by a yes or no question.....this will be fun!

Math.11:16-19 "But whereunto shall I liken THIS GENERATION? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows....for John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, he hath a devil. The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man gluttons...."

It should be obvious which generation saw both John the Baptist and Jesus "come" in the flesh!
Does the phrase "this generation" in this refernence refer to Jesus' contemporary first century generation....yes or no?
 
B

Brother Mike

Guest
It should be obvious which generation saw both John the Baptist and Jesus "come" in the flesh!
Does the phrase "this generation" in this refernence refer to Jesus' contemporary first century generation....yes or no?
I suppose I am not getting those historic links I asked for. I don't want to go through this again, but for the sake of being polite, I will.

Mat 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus talks about the temple.......

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Two questions here.

What shall be the sign of your coming?
What to expect at the end of the World?

No question about a temple. Jesus coming, and the End of the World.

Jesus goes into those things that will happen all the way to Judgment for the end of the world. He then says this generation (The one that experienced all He spoke about) will see it.

I gave several scriptures in some post about Jesus own Generation and things He had said......... "you generation of vipers" for example.

All the things Jesus said about the signs, and what will happen concerning his coming and the end will happen in the generation that sees these things.

It's not that difficult. Jesus answered two questions. His coming and the end of the World.

Hope In Glory, we still have stars in the sky, No reports of Jesus coming in the clouds, No Gospel preached all over the world just yet.

You have no history, no proof these things he talked about have happened yet, just some history about a temple getting knocked down, big deal.

Why do you continue like this?

Mike.
 

jasoncran

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5 "Thus the Lord my God will come and all the saints with you"8 "In that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem.....11 "The people shall dwell in it.....Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited"(wait a minute, I though Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 2)???
16 Judah also will fight against Jerusalem...."???
16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord if hosts, and to keep the feast if tabernacles" (why are there nations left if Jesus has come and the resurrection has taken place???? And it seems Jerusalem is still inhabited.....it thought it was destroyed????
Hope IN Glory................ Do me a favor....... Just please stop.........

Verse 2 never said the city was destroyed, but taken. what about Judah?? They still trying to figure out where it's at, however you have to stop misquoting things to make a point. This may surprise you, but I can read a little..

Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Judah fights at Jerusalem, no against. Amazing.

Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Here they are, happy together.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Rev 21:26
And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

There are your other nations, there is your new city if you like. Where the heck these people come from? Who knows, but we have nations a City that needs no sun, and Jesus fully in control. There is no such thing on the Planet today.

wait a minute, I though Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 2
No............ before posting something, what can Brother Mike come up with to counter it? Do it that way so we can cover new ground.

Hope IN Glory......... Focus on "That Generation" I could care less right now about a new city, people, whatever. Get these facts out of the way for me. I am not asking for scriptures as Rev was written before 70ad we believe.

That generation.

Jesus was asked, what signs for the end of the World. (Matt 24)

The gospel preached all over the World.......................... When did we accomplish this? It's never been done, not to every nation. Heck, we are just getting the technology now to do it.

give me the links, Historical account, whatever you have to do to prove we have gotten the gospel to every single nation.

Sun, Moon, Stars......... Stars get rolled up. It's in several verses and all say stars, the bible always gives the key if it's Hyperbole, but not in this case. Like Sword means word, it's given to us. These signs in the sky made mens' hearts fail. The seas roared.

Give me the links, whatever you have to give to show me this had taken place in History somewhere.

Jesus coming in the clouds with the angels that every eye saw.


This one should be very easy for you to find, everyone saw Jesus coming in the clouds. The whole earth.......... someone would have written it down, far more important than some temple getting knocked over. Links and history of when this occurred.

Nation rise against nation......... (Not some small conflict in the Middle East)

Give me the historical account of this event tied with the temple being knocked over, and Jesus appearing after or before with the stars vanished after or before.


Give me these accounts in History like you did with some army knocking over a temple, this generation also saw these things and they would have to be recorded somewhere. What makes greater news? Temple gets knocked over? Stars vanished today?

After you have provided this evidence, then you have my attention. I am willing to allow you to use History and recorded events outside of the bible, this ought to be real easy at this point if what your saying is true.

Mike.
problem if jesus says flee to the mountains and the mountains rolls up? what happens to dem Christians that believe in dem mountains?
 
B

Brother Mike

Guest
If you don't consider a temple being knocked down as important, why do you consider some temple being built important?
I don't recall saying I don't care if a temple gets knocked down or built. Considering that in the Generation that sees the return of the Lord in clouds with the Angels that every eye can see, compared to that and a temple getting knocked over is like apple and oranges.

My question was, since everything that Jesus spoke about happened in 70ad, then why just record a temple getting knocked over and not also record the stars vanishing, men looking at the signs in Heaven and their hearts fail because of the sun and moon going dark. Why not also record Jesus coming in the clouds with the Angels. This all happened in the Generation that Hope in Glory believes happened in 70ad. That was my comparison, as what would be more significant as opposed to something else. The end of the World is a big deal compared to a temple and that was the question that Jesus answered the disciples about. According to Hope in Glory though................ The end of the world happened in 70ad, the stars should be missing and I guess someone forgot to mention Jesus stopped by.


problem if jesus says flee to the mountains and the mountains rolls up? what happens to dem Christians that believe in dem mountains?
Stars Jason.... stars get rolled up like a scroll, all of the heavens as in Isa. Mountains get shaken, I suppose it might not be safe to run to mountains that are shaking but where you gonna go?

Mike.
 

jasoncran

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dude. been in and earth quake? I have 3.0 and bit higher. it will take you out if its more intense. so either this is no way an earthly judgement or If it is the saints are gone.not going to accept speculation as the bible says the saints survive the trib and how can they without either a clear intervention from god as he doesn't harm them or a clear statement. remember the vial judgement are from god?

well kinda hard to run when you cant see. ya need light of the day even the moon helps see with nvg's
 

Deborah13

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I don't recall saying I don't care if a temple gets knocked down or built. Considering that in the Generation that sees the return of the Lord in clouds with the Angels that every eye can see, compared to that and a temple getting knocked over is like apple and oranges.

Mike, do think that all of us are saying that 70 AD was THE returning of the Lord, as would be called by most to be the Second Coming? Because that is NOT the case at all. I believe Jesus will return again and there will be a New heaven and a New earth. This is not it.
 

JLB

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Brother Mike, you did not answer my questions, please do so, they are very simple and straight forward.

Was Jesus speaking to his first century generation (were they his listening audience) in Luke 21....Yes or No?
When Jesus said "when YOU shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies..." was he still speaking TO his contemporary first century generation....Yes or No?
According to the simple reading of the text, did Jesus tell his first century contemporary generation that THEY would see Jerusalem surrounded with armies....Yes or No?

Thank you.
Hope of glory

Was Judas Iscariot present when Jesus said when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...? Yes

Did Judas see Jerusalem surrounded by armies? No

Conclusion: Jesus message referred to those who will see both Jerusalem surrounded by armies AND the signs in the sun, moon and stars, as well as Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory.

Not just the ONE sign YOU cherry pick out of ALL that Luke 21 teaches.

ONLY Zechariah 14 has all of these signs, which is not about the events of 70 AD.

JLB
JLB

show me your proof that Judas was present in Luke 21

Furthermore, his discourse was directed at a "generation" of people (v32-his generation), he did not say "Judas iscariot will not pass away...."

So, in your mind, since Jesus spoke this TO Judas, will Judas be reincarnated and alive on planet earth to witness a future destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' future return????Lol!

JLB, by stating that Judas Iscariot "was present when Jesus said when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...", you openly confess that Jesus did in fact speak this to his own first century contemporary generation! Good job!

Therefore Luke 21:20 (as you have just admitted), is a reference to Jerusalems destruction in 70ad!
Is Jesus' first century generation still alive on earth, just waiting to see a rebuilt temple and it's subsequent destruction???
I think not!

Thank you for answering my questions which I asked brother Mike.

By the way, if Zechariah.14 is about "Jerusalems destruction" the "return of the Lord" and the "resurrection" we have some serious contradictions.
V2 "for I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle against Jerusalem and the city shall be taken...."
5 "Thus the Lord my God will come and all the saints with you"8 "In that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem.....11 "The people shall dwell in it.....Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited"(wait a minute, I though Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 2)???
16 Judah also will fight against Jerusalem...."???
16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord if hosts, and to keep the feast if tabernacles" (why are there nations left if Jesus has come and the resurrection has taken place???? And it seems Jerusalem is still inhabited.....it thought it was destroyed????
17 "And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not cone up to Jerusalem to worship the King
Please show from Luke 21 where the language of The city destroyed are?

Surrounded by armies does not mean destroyed.

Desolated does not mean destroyed.


Zechariah 14 has the city being surrounded, as well as the Lord returning.

In addition, it has the signs of the heavens as well.

Zechariah 14 is what Jesus was referring to in Luke 21.

Jesus did not return in 70 AD and reward His Faithful like he taught us in Matthew 25 -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; Matthew 25:31-42


Jesus did not come in 70 AD and sit on His Throne of Glory and separate the nations?

Jesus did not come in 70 AD and personally interact with His faithful and speak to them and bless them for being faith.

Jesus did not come in 70 AD and removed the wicked and cast them into everlasting fire.


The Olivet Discourse is about the end of the age, when Jesus returns.

The Olivet Discourse has NOTHING to do with 70 AD.

The Abomination of Desolation has nothing to do with the events of 70 AD, as Daniel lays out.

Even Luke 21 with the phrase "surrounded by armies" does not mean the destruction of the city.

Jesus did not come in 70 AD.


JLB
 

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It should be obvious which generation saw both John the Baptist and Jesus "come" in the flesh!
Does the phrase "this generation" in this refernence refer to Jesus' contemporary first century generation....yes or no?
I suppose I am not getting those historic links I asked for. I don't want to go through this again, but for the sake of being polite, I will.

Mat 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus talks about the temple.......

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Two questions here.

What shall be the sign of your coming?
What to expect at the end of the World?

No question about a temple. Jesus coming, and the End of the World.

Jesus goes into those things that will happen all the way to Judgment for the end of the world. He then says this generation (The one that experienced all He spoke about) will see it.

I gave several scriptures in some post about Jesus own Generation and things He had said......... "you generation of vipers" for example.

All the things Jesus said about the signs, and what will happen concerning his coming and the end will happen in the generation that sees these things.

It's not that difficult. Jesus answered two questions. His coming and the end of the World.

Hope In Glory, we still have stars in the sky, No reports of Jesus coming in the clouds, No Gospel preached all over the world just yet.

You have no history, no proof these things he talked about have happened yet, just some history about a temple getting knocked down, big deal.

Why do you continue like this?

Mike.
Brother Mike

You said: Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus talks about the temple.......

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Two questions here.

What shall be the sign of your coming?
What to expect at the end of the World?

No question about a temple. Jesus coming, and the End of the World.

Wrong. There are 3 questions, the first being "when shall these things be..."
What things? The throwing down of every stone (Jerusalems destruction) which Jesus prophesied in the previous verse.
(so much for "no question about a temple")

Second: the end of the "world" is "end of the age" (Gr.aion)
Definition for "age":
"A great period of time Distinguished from others by it's special characteristics" (Websters)
The Mosiac systems was an age. It was a great period of time was distinguished from all others because of it's many special elements (characteristics)- sacrifices, priesthood, promises, law etc!
70ad was the end of that age, that distinguished system and it's special characterizes was completely destroyed in 70ad. Note, the covenant changed at the cross, yet the age was still in "practice" for 40 years until 70ad!

The "end of the age" as stated in Math.24 has nothing to do the "end of the world" as you think my friend.

I will use your own reasoning against you, listen.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

You say because the "end of the world" is mentioned that Jesus' discourse is ONLY about the end of the world.
(I have shown above how your word definition is wrong, but I will show you from another angle also)

Luke 21:7 "And they asked him, saying, Master, when shall these things be, and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass"

Notice, no mention of the "end of the world"....right?
So why in verse 27 does Jesus say: "And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory"????
I thought this was his second coming? But the disciples questions were not about the end of the world, they were about Jerusalems destruction which Jesus prophesied just before they asked them!
Therefore it is logical to conclude that Jesus' "answers" had nothing to do with the end of the world either!

Here is my point:
By the phrase "end of the world" being present in Math.24, you conclude that the entire discourse points to and finds fulfillment in the "end of the world"

On the other hand, because of the absence of the phrase "end of the age" in both Luke and Mark, I conclude that the entire discourse points to and finds fulfillment in between 30 and 70ad and not in the end of the world. Therefore, the Jesus' coming in the clouds in
both Luke and Mark have nothing to do with the "end of the world" since this is not mentioned in the discourse.

So who is right and who is wrong?

Math.26:64 is powerful proof for my argument!
"Jesus saith unto him, thou hast said, nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven"

No mention of the "end of the world" Brother Mike!
Yet Jesus tells Ciaphas that HE will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven!
He said this to Ciaphas in 30ad....it had nothing to do with the end of the world!
Also, the word "hereafter" is "apo arti" in the Greek and means (just now, at this moment, now at this time, this moment). Jesus was not telling Ciaphas that he would see a "distant future event", rather, he was telling him that he would now understand who he (Jesus) was-both Lord and Christ (King and Priest)!

The problem Brother Mike, is that you don't understand what Jesus was saying. Jesus did not return bodily in 70ad, nor do I suggest he did. Study Dan.7, ps.110 and consider the context and audience of the gospels and you will understand what Jesus was communicating to Ciaphas and to his disciples in his discourses regarding his "coming in the clouds"!
(not to mention Jesus' plain words that "this generation" his generation would see all these things)
Brother Mike, have you looked at every time Jesus said "this generation" and who he was referring to.....it will correct your understanding of this phrase.

The reason why I "continue like this" is because what I'm writing is truth.

If you want we can go over your list of "why you won't believe" again, although what I have written should be enough.
blessings
Hope of glory
 
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Brother Mike

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Actually that was very Good Hope in Glory. Bravo!!!!

You have manged to explain that in a way that could be plausible. For that Brother, I Shake your hand. Job well done.

Aion a Greek noun has a start and an end. Being a noun it defines itself. Bravo!!! Aion would not need the Word "World" to define itself.

Aionious A Greek Adjective can have a defining something in the Article, otherwise it just continues forever.

eis Aion Aion would run age upon age....... Forever.

Wait Anioious, until I get back................................... The end comes when I return, Paul used it this way once. Great, I now see you are paying attention, very good. That makes me feel better as opposed to debating with certain others here.

You get the point Hope IN Glory, well covered.

The only issue is.................. Genea is basically the lifespan of a person.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Aion)

We still have to match up................... the generation of 70ad with the events of the age Jesus was talking about. The verse above also tells use about the end of the age, but in this verse we have angels taking up the tares and casting them into the fire. I don't believe this has anything to do with some army knocking down a temple.

You made a great point, but I am still going to need something that describes this. The end of the age................... Why would we define that at 70ad? Danial 9 perhaps?

Anyway, great job. More to come I am sure.

Mike.
 

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Actually that was very Good Hope in Glory. Bravo!!!!

You have manged to explain that in a way that could be plausible. For that Brother, I Shake your hand. Job well done.

Aion a Greek noun has a start and an end. Being a noun it defines itself. Bravo!!! Aion would not need the Word "World" to define itself.

Aionious A Greek Adjective can have a defining something in the Article, otherwise it just continues forever.

eis Aion Aion would run age upon age....... Forever.

Wait Anioious, until I get back................................... The end comes when I return, Paul used it this way once. Great, I now see you are paying attention, very good. That makes me feel better as opposed to debating with certain others here.

You get the point Hope IN Glory, well covered.

The only issue is.................. Genea is basically the lifespan of a person.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Aion)
We still have to match up................... the generation of 70ad with the events of the age Jesus was talking about. The verse above also tells use about the end of the age, but in this verse we have angels taking up the tares and casting them into the fire. I don't believe this has anything to do with some army knocking down a temple.

You made a great point, but I am still going to need something that describes this. The end of the age................... Why would we define that at 70ad? Danial 9 perhaps?

Anyway, great job. More to come I am sure.

Mike.
Brother Mike

I'm glad you enjoyed the previous post. Let's stay focused on "this generation" and we can cover some serious ground.
(I fully intend to deal with Math.13:37-43 with you but first this)

I will share some illumination on the phrase "this generation" from the old testament with you.....tomorrow!
(look at Numbers 14 and compare the generation who refused the promised land and were consumed in the wilderness after 40 years of wandering with the generation who refused Jesus (the true promised Land) who were consumed in Jerusalem in 70ad after 40 years of wandering (30-70ad) in an abolished old covenant....this is were I am headed....the beginning of the age and the "end of the age" saw a repeat of history! In numbers 14 is found the "biblical pattern" for a generation being 40 years.....in 30ad Jesus gave his olivet discourse....in 70ad it was fulfilled....a 40 year generation....."this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.....30-70ad....40 years, one generation, just like the Master said!
I will pick it up here with you tomorrow, always a pleasure with you Brother Mike,
Blessings
Hope of glory
 

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Brother Mike, you did not answer my questions, please do so, they are very simple and straight forward.

Was Jesus speaking to his first century generation (were they his listening audience) in Luke 21....Yes or No?
When Jesus said "when YOU shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies..." was he still speaking TO his contemporary first century generation....Yes or No?
According to the simple reading of the text, did Jesus tell his first century contemporary generation that THEY would see Jerusalem surrounded with armies....Yes or No?

Thank you.
Hope of glory

Was Judas Iscariot present when Jesus said when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...? Yes

Did Judas see Jerusalem surrounded by armies? No

Conclusion: Jesus message referred to those who will see both Jerusalem surrounded by armies AND the signs in the sun, moon and stars, as well as Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory.

Not just the ONE sign YOU cherry pick out of ALL that Luke 21 teaches.

ONLY Zechariah 14 has all of these signs, which is not about the events of 70 AD.

JLB
JLB

show me your proof that Judas was present in Luke 21

Furthermore, his discourse was directed at a "generation" of people (v32-his generation), he did not say "Judas iscariot will not pass away...."

So, in your mind, since Jesus spoke this TO Judas, will Judas be reincarnated and alive on planet earth to witness a future destruction of Jerusalem and Jesus' future return????Lol!

JLB, by stating that Judas Iscariot "was present when Jesus said when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...", you openly confess that Jesus did in fact speak this to his own first century contemporary generation! Good job!

Therefore Luke 21:20 (as you have just admitted), is a reference to Jerusalems destruction in 70ad!
Is Jesus' first century generation still alive on earth, just waiting to see a rebuilt temple and it's subsequent destruction???
I think not!

Thank you for answering my questions which I asked brother Mike.

By the way, if Zechariah.14 is about "Jerusalems destruction" the "return of the Lord" and the "resurrection" we have some serious contradictions.
V2 "for I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle against Jerusalem and the city shall be taken...."
5 "Thus the Lord my God will come and all the saints with you"8 "In that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem.....11 "The people shall dwell in it.....Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited"(wait a minute, I though Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 2)???
16 Judah also will fight against Jerusalem...."???
16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord if hosts, and to keep the feast if tabernacles" (why are there nations left if Jesus has come and the resurrection has taken place???? And it seems Jerusalem is still inhabited.....it thought it was destroyed????
17 "And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not cone up to Jerusalem to worship the King
Please show from Luke 21 where the language of The city destroyed are?

Surrounded by armies does not mean destroyed.

Desolated does not mean destroyed.


Zechariah 14 has the city being surrounded, as well as the Lord returning.

In addition, it has the signs of the heavens as well.

Zechariah 14 is what Jesus was referring to in Luke 21.

Jesus did not return in 70 AD and reward His Faithful like he taught us in Matthew 25 -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; Matthew 25:31-42

Jesus did not come in 70 AD and sit on His Throne of Glory and separate the nations?

Jesus did not come in 70 AD and personally interact with His faithful and speak to them and bless them for being faith.

Jesus did not come in 70 AD and removed the wicked and cast them into everlasting fire.


The Olivet Discourse is about the end of the age, when Jesus returns.

The Olivet Discourse has NOTHING to do with 70 AD.

The Abomination of Desolation has nothing to do with the events of 70 AD, as Daniel lays out.
Even Luke 21 with the phrase "surrounded by armies" does not mean the destruction of the city.

Jesus did not come in 70 AD.


JLB
JLB,
You said "Please show from Luke 21 where the language of The city destroyed are?"

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus talks about the temple.......
Similar language is used in both Luke and Mark also, if you can't see this as Jerusalems destruction being prophesied than there is really nothing I can talk to you about on this matter as you deny the very context and purpose of Jesus' discourses.

Also I have already dealt with the word "desolation" in Luke 21:20
The Greek word is "eremosis" and means "a making desolate, a desolation"
It's root is the word "eremoo" which means "to make desolate, to lay waste, to ruin, bring to desolation, to despoil one, to strip of ones treasures"

Luke 21:20 most definitely denotes Jerusalems surrounding and it's destruction (desolation, ruin, laying waste)

If you deny this, again, we have nothing to discuss!

Since I am correct and you are not my reasoning still stands.

Luke 21:20 is a reference to Jerusalems destruction in 70ad
"this generation" refers to one single generation
According to you verse 27 is the future return of the Lord

Therefore, how can the one single generation which saw Jerusalems destruction in 70ad also still be alive on earth to see Jesus' future return?

The only chance you have is to say:
"there is no language of Jerusalems destruction in Luke 21"

Why don't you show me the scripture where Ciaphas saw a vision of Jesus coming in the clouds..... You said "he could have seen it".....so it must be there right?
You have no answer for Math.26:64 either, Ciaphas is not nor cannot be part of a future "generation" which will see "all these things". Ciaphas is dead, yet Jesus said HE WOULD SEE him coming on the clouds of heaven!

You must face the truth, Jesus was not referring to his future return....he is quoting ps.110 and Dan.7 to Ciaphas to make him understand who it was who was standing before him!
Can't you see the irony, he who was judging Jesus, was standing before the "judge of all the earth" and Jesus was letting him know it!
Selah!
 

JLB

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Luke 21:20 is a reference to Jerusalems destruction in 70ad "this generation" refers to one single generation According to you verse 27 is the future return of the Lord
Luke 21 refers to Zechariah 14 which includes the surrounding of Jerusalem and the return of the Lord.


Matthew 25:31-37 shows the return of The Lord Jesus and Him seated upon His throne as well as Him speaking to His faithful ones and rewarding them.


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?

Furthermore, Matthew 25:41 shows Jesus passing Judgment on the wicked and having them cast into everlasting fire.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


This is the teaching of Jesus to His disciples privately on the Mount of Olives.


Yet, you say Matthew 24 and 25 is all about the temple being destroyed, and you deny that Jesus was speaking of His return.

Even though He gives very specific details of His return and what He would when we He arrived, down to interacting with His faithful ones and blessing them.

Why would anyone deny this?


JLB
 

Hope of glory

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Luke 21:20 is a reference to Jerusalems destruction in 70ad "this generation" refers to one single generation According to you verse 27 is the future return of the Lord
Luke 21 refers to Zechariah 14 which includes the surrounding of Jerusalem and the return of the Lord.


Matthew 25:31-37 shows the return of The Lord Jesus and Him seated upon His throne as well as Him speaking to His faithful ones and rewarding them.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited
Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?

Furthermore, Matthew 25:41 shows Jesus passing Judgment on the wicked and having them cast into everlasting fire.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

This is the teaching of Jesus to His disciples privately on the Mount of Olives.


Yet, you say Matthew 24 and 25 is all about the temple being destroyed, and you deny that Jesus was speaking of His return.

Even though He gives very specific details of His return and what He would when we He arrived, down to interacting with His faithful ones and blessing them.

Why would anyone deny this?


JLB
You have apparently ignored my previous post where I showed you by simple word definition that Luke 21:20 does refer to Jerusalems destruction and that Math.26:64 was referring to a "present understanding", not a future event.
As I said, there is no point for me to discuss this with you any further.

Blessings

Hope of glory
 

JLB

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Luke 21:20 is a reference to Jerusalems destruction in 70ad "this generation" refers to one single generation According to you verse 27 is the future return of the Lord
Luke 21 refers to Zechariah 14 which includes the surrounding of Jerusalem and the return of the Lord.


Matthew 25:31-37 shows the return of The Lord Jesus and Him seated upon His throne as well as Him speaking to His faithful ones and rewarding them.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited
Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?

Furthermore, Matthew 25:41 shows Jesus passing Judgment on the wicked and having them cast into everlasting fire.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

This is the teaching of Jesus to His disciples privately on the Mount of Olives.


Yet, you say Matthew 24 and 25 is all about the temple being destroyed, and you deny that Jesus was speaking of His return.

Even though He gives very specific details of His return and what He would when we He arrived, down to interacting with His faithful ones and blessing them.

Why would anyone deny this?


JLB
You have apparently ignored my previous post where I showed you by simple word definition that Luke 21:20 does refer to Jerusalems destruction and that Math.26:64 was referring to a "present understanding", not a future event.
As I said, there is no point for me to discuss this with you any further.

Blessings

Hope of glory

Jesus will come a SECOND TIME and stay here on earth.

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:29


Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are about the end of the age, when Jesus returns a second time to gather His people at the resurrection.


JLB
 
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Brother Mike

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I understand the Age thing........... but still not convinced Jesus was not talking about believes when He mentioned every stone removed. Peter calls us precious stone from the chief corner stone and I don't think Jesus really cares that much about some temple getting knocked over. He always had something very important to discuss. Not one stone left, then after he describes that we will be taken to court, and our own family will turn against us.

I seriously don't think Jesus is talking about some brick building here. I think he made a comment about what is coming up for the end of age, and gave a description of what people will see and experience in that generation.

If All Jesus said happened in 70ad............. Then no coming of Jesus, no stars rolled up, no Gospel preached all over the World then the end come........(I guess they did not get the job done) No Horsemen, White, red Black as they have already ridden.

One thing I do understand is the best way to remove how everything is going to end, you don't start from the top down, you start at the very root. If you can pull that off then we just rip the book of revelation out of our bibles.

There are way to many events going on all over the bible when that sixth seal is broken, for more than just some temple getting knocked over. There would be history recorded and I have yet to see any produced yet.

In fact, what should be major news is hyperbole or missing.

Hope in Glory has some connections, some good points.......... I have to ask though is putting "That Generation" going to connect the most points? I would have to say yes, because there is absolutely no history of Jesus coming in the clouds, stars vanishing, Earth quakes and the sea roaring.

Those stars are not hyperbole, men looked in the sky and their hearts failed them because of the terrible signs in Heaven. Your heart does not fail if you can't see it.

Hope in Glory.......... I have looked at it, have understood you good key points. You still have not coughed up that history that should most definitely be in there. A horse rider with the Technology to spread Plague in 70ad would have made the news somewhere.

Like Myth Busters............. No evidence........... Busted!!

Mike.
 
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Hope of glory

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Hello Brother Mike

I will repost the following just as a refresher:

(look at Numbers 14 and compare the generation who refused the promised land and were consumed in the wilderness after 40 years of wandering with the generation who refused Jesus (the true promised Land) who were consumed in Jerusalem in 70ad after 40 years of wandering (30-70ad) in an abolished old covenant....this is were I am headed....the beginning of the age and the "end of the age" saw a repeat of history! In numbers 14 is
found the "biblical pattern" for a generation being 40 years.....in 30ad Jesus gave his
olivet discourse....in 70ad it was fulfilled....a 40 year generation....."this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.....30-70ad....40 years, one generation, just like the Master said!

Brother Mike, there are some amazing parallels between the first and last generations of the "Mosiac age".

1Cor.10:1-5,11 "Moreover brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and did eat the same spiritual meat, and did all
drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them: and that rock was Christ! But with many of them God was nit well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.....11 Now all these things happened unto THEM for examples, UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGE ARE COME"

Paul tells his first century generation that the experiences of the "exodus generation" were "examples" (Gr.tupos: a type) for THEM (the first century generation), upon whom the end of the age had come!.....Did you get that, he said the "end of the age" had come upon THEM.....2000 years ago.

Heb.9;26 "But now once in the END OF THE AGE hath he appeared to put away sin by the
sacrifice of himself"
Did you get it again? Jesus' perfect sacrifice took place at the "end of the age".....2000 years ago.

Kinda lines up with Jesus' own words and his disciples questions.....
"when shall these things be.....and the end of the age......this generation....."

Anyways, 2 apostolic witnesses place the "end of the age" in the first century.....let's move on.
(Key words are "40 years" "generation" and "wilderness")

Num.14:29 "Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness, and all that were numbered of you, all those of 20 years old and upward, which have murmured against me....31 But your little ones which you said would be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised 32 But as for you your carcasses, they shall fall in this wilderness 33 and your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcasses be wasted in the wilderness 34 after the number of the days in which you searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, Ye shall bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise 35 I the Lord have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered against me, in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there shall they die".

Because of Israels rejection of the promise land, God sentenced the entire "congregation" to a 40 year wilderness wandering resulting in the death of all who did not believe.

Notice the word "congregation". The NT writers give us a better understanding of what was meant.
Heb.3:9-11 "When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works 40 years. Wherefore I was grieved with that
GENERATION, and said, they do always err in their heart, and they have not known my ways. So I aware in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest."

With this understanding we see that the unbelieving "generation" wandered in the "wilderness" for "40 years" and were consumed in the wilderness, outside the land of rest.

Brother Mike, you gotta see this!

In 30ad Jesys was crucified, the "generation" he came to largely rejected him and his kingdom (the true land of rest).
Just before Jesus' olivet discourse, Jesus says this "Behold your house is left to you desolate" (Math.23:38)
What did he mean by "your house"

Heb.3:5-6"And Moses was verily faithful in all HIS HOUSE, as a servant...."But Christ as a son over his own house, whose house are we..."

Jesus was referring to more than just the tempke when he said "your house".... Those who were under the old covenant and law were of the "house of Moses". The "house of Moses" represented the entire Mosiac economy, that age!

Now listen, this is awesome!

The word "desolate" in Math.23:38 is "eremosis" and literally means "a wilderness"!!!!!

Jesus had just blasted the religious leaders of that generation and then literally tells them that "your house" (your entire Mosaic system and economy) is left to you "desolate" (a wilderness"!!!!!

Recall the words of God in Num.14 .....you'd children shall wander in the wilderness forty years....until your carcasses be wasted in the wilderness"

Just like Israel of old, Jesus' first century generation had rejected the promised
land....they had failed to believe on the King and his kingdom.
For 40 years (30-70ad) they wandered in the "wilderness" of the fulfilled and abolished Mosiac old covenant system until they perished in their wilderness....in their dead and empty Judiac system.

This understanding sets the context for the olivet discourses.

The whole context of the discourse is about "every stone being thrown down" (Jerusalems destruction and that unbelieving generations judgment)

This gives the understanding of Jesus' words "this generation" shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". He spoke that in 30ad, and in 70ad (40 years later), "that generation" suffered their greatest tribulation ever, and that which was determined was poured out upon that which was already a "wilderness".

So wee see a repeat, the "end of the age" ended just as it began.....
In ancient Israel a generation rejected the promise so 40 years later God punished the entire generation and raised up a new generation to enter into Caanan
In Jesus' day, a generation rejected Him, so 40 years later God judged the entire unbelieving generation and raised up a new generation who would enter into him Kingdom and begin to put every enemy under foot!!!
We are still in that land brother Mike, and Jesus is still "EXPECTING UNTIL HIS ENEMIES ARE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL"! (Heb.10:12-13)

Blessings
Hope of glory
 
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