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About how many here hold some preterism views? - Part 2

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Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

When so many of His own will not acknowledge Him as Lord of all why ever should the world?

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,evenunto the end of the world. Amen.
Why are we willing to accept 19,20 but not 18 ? well that makes 17 make sense.

I can't speak for everyone else, but as for me I certainly confess Jesus Christ as Lord of heaven and earth.

He is Lord of all.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19

This scripture is Him authorizing His Apostles to go and demonstrate His authority to the nations.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

He is Lord of Heaven and Earth.


JLB
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

When so many of His own will not acknowledge Him as Lord of all why ever should the world?

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,evenunto the end of the world. Amen.
Why are we willing to accept 19,20 but not 18 ? well that makes 17 make sense.

I can't speak for everyone else, but as for me I certainly confess Jesus Christ as Lord of heaven and earth.

He is Lord of all.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19

This scripture is Him authorizing His Apostles to go and demonstrate His authority to the nations.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
He is Lord of Heaven and Earth.


JLB


Math.24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Apostolic witness declares this scripture fulfilled:

Col.1:5-6 "Because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before IN THE WORD OF THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL, WHICH HAS COME TO YOU, AS IT HAS IN ALL THE WORLD, and is bringing forth fruit..."

Col.1:23 "If indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel which Ye heard, WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN..."

There is absolutely no disputing this according to the apostle Paul!

That means the "end" has come!....The end of "the age" which was until the destruction of the old heaven and earth ((2Pet.3)

I find it ironic JLB, you believe that "the gospel of the kingdom" must still be preached (as do I), but you deny that the "kingdom has come"???? So what are you preaching? Are you still preaching a "coming kingdom"?

Those like the sons of Issachar "who have understanding of the time and know what Israel ought to do" preach the "gospel of the kingdom"!
We are not preaching that the "kingdom is coming"....that was the OT gospel (2Sam.7, Dan.2)
We now preach the gospel of the kingdom... the "kingdom HAS come" (Luke.17:20-21 Rom.14:17 Rev.12:10)
The King of the kingdom came the first time and "set up his kingdom" (Dan.2, Acts 15)..... when he comes again he "delivers up" the Kingdom to God, even the Father (1Cor.15:24)

Hope of glory
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

but you deny that the "kingdom has come"

You are making a false claim against me.

I believe the kingdom of God has come.

I believe the kingdom of God is in me.

I don't believe this earth is as it is in heaven.

There is absolutely no disputing this according to the apostle Paul!

23 if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which is being proclaimed in all creation under heaven; of which I, Paul, was made a servant. Colossians 1:23 World English Bible

This is much more consistent with what Paul said in the previous verse -

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you; even as it is in all the world and is bearing fruit and increasing, as it does in you also, since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6

The Gospel is bearing fruit and increasing in all the world as it is being preached.

There are still places to day that have not heard the Gospel of the kingdom AS A WITNESS.

The end of the age is when when Jesus returns and gathers His people at the resurrection of the dead.

The age to come is where these resurrected people have bodies that will never die, nor will they marry.


JLB
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

but you deny that the "kingdom has come"

You are making a false claim against me.

I believe the kingdom of God has come.

I believe the kingdom of God is in me.

I don't believe this earth is as it is in heaven.

There is absolutely no disputing this according to the apostle Paul!

23 if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which is being proclaimed in all creation under
heaven; of which I, Paul, was made a servant. Colossians 1:23 World English Bible

This is much more consistent with what Paul said in the previous verse -
5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you; even as it is in all the world and is bearing fruit and increasing, as it does in you also, since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6

The Gospel is bearing fruit and increasing in all the world as it is being preached.

There are still places to day that have not heard the Gospel of the kingdom AS A WITNESS.

The end of the age is when when Jesus returns and gathers His people at the resurrection of the dead.

The age to come is where these resurrected people have bodies that will never die, nor will they marry.


JLB

JLB, you said:

"I believe the kingdom of God has come."

If you do, then you must believe Rev.12:10 is a present reality!
".....Now is come salvation and strength and the KINGDOM OF OUR GOD and the power of his Christ because the accuser of the brethren is cast down which accused them before our God day and night"

Well, has the Kingdom come?
Is Rev.12:10 a present reality?
If you believe Rev.12:10 is still future then you don't believe that the kingdom has come and I have not made a false statement by saying "you don't believe the kingdom has come"!

Also, your translation says "5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you; even as it is in all the world and is bearing fruit and increasing, as it does in you also, since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6

This says that the "word of the truth of the gospel" had come to all the world ("is in all the world") and was bearing fruit and was increasing!
How could the gospel be bearing fruit and increasing in all the world if it was not first "preached in all the world"?????
Hearing comes before bearing fruit and it's increase!
SELA

Hope of glory


Hope of glory
 
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Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

If you do, then you must believe Rev.12:10 is a present reality!

No. I don't believe the enemy and all his angels have been cast down to the earth yet.

He is the prince of the power of the air until he is cast down to the earth.

When he is it will be the great tribulation, as the time, times and a half of time is a reference to that.


JLB
 
oh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
 
oh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Great scripture.

Whats your point?


JLB
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

I read those verses as an answer, or contradiction to your post #45.

Along with this one ...

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Different opinions give the forums a robust life :)
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

I read those verses as an answer, or contradiction to your post #45.

Along with this one ...

Joh 12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Different opinions give the forums a robust life :)


in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, Ephesians 2:2

and again -


12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:12


Until he is cast to the earth with all his angels, he has access to heavenly places.


I believe he has been cast down from the third heaven, but still has access to heavenly places.

Revelation 12 is associated with the great tribulation, which is a whole wide event, but will begin in Jerusalem when the abomination of Desolation is set up.


JLB
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

I read those verses as an answer, or contradiction to your post #45.

Along with this one ...

Joh 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.


Different opinions give the forums a robust life :)


in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, Ephesians 2:2

and again -


12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:12


Until he is cast to the earth with all his angels, he has access to heavenly places.


I believe he has been cast down from the third heaven, but still has access to heavenly places.

Revelation 12 is associated with the great tribulation, which is a whole wide event, but will begin in Jerusalem when the abomination of Desolation is set up.


JLB

JLB,
John 12:21 and Rev.12:10 clearly reveal that the devil has been judged and cast out of the heavenlies!
You also deny that the kingdom had come by putting Rev.12:10 in the future!
.....NOW is come salvation and strength and the KINGDOM OF OUR GOD...for the accuser of the brethren IS cast down..."
If the kingdom has come, Satan has been cast out of the heavens
If Satan has not been cast down, than the kingdom has not come....simple!
You can't believe only part of Rev.12:10!

JLB please respond to the following:
Also, your translation says "5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you; even as it is in all the world and is bearing fruit and increasing, as it does in you also, since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6

This says that the "word of the truth of the gospel" had come to all the world ("is in all the world") and was bearing fruit and was increasing!
Question:
How could the gospel be bearing fruit and increasing in all the world if it was not first "preached in all the world"?????
Hearing comes before bearing fruit and it's increase!

Hope of glory
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

How could the gospel be bearing fruit and increasing in all the world if it was not first "preached in all the world"?????

The Gospel is being preached in all the world and bearing fruit.

23 if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which is being proclaimed in all creation under heaven; of which I, Paul, was made a servant.


JLB
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

If you do, then you must believe Rev.12:10 is a present reality!

No. I don't believe the enemy and all his angels have been cast down to the earth yet.

He is the prince of the power of the air until he is cast down to the earth.
Yet Jesus said, "NOW is the prince of this age cast out."

When he is it will be the great tribulation, as the time, times and a half of time is a reference to that.
Yet John said that he was already in the tribulation,

I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 1:9 ESV
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

I read those verses as an answer, or contradiction to your post #45.

Along with this one ...

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Different opinions give the forums a robust life :)
I believe as adam Clarke does that God went from dealing only with isreal and the nations around her to know the whole world with the idea of redemption. thus before God allowed satan to have those other nations as they never knew God but now that the gospel isn't in one location and is spread out as the church grows satan looses power over men.
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

Yet Jesus said, "NOW is the prince of this age cast out."

Cast out does not mean cast down to the earth.



Yet John said that he was already in the tribulation, I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 1:9 ESV

I have no doubt John was in a tribulation.

Nero was feeding Christians to lions for entertainment. He tried to boil John alive in oil.

However this is not a reference to the great tribulation that has not been since the beginning of the world, nor shall ever be.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21


JLB
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

Cast out does not mean cast down to the earth.
Then what does it mean? Paul told the saints at Rome that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet SHORTLY (Romans 16:20).

I have no doubt John was in a tribulation.
Yet John EXPLICITLY said that he was their partner in 'THE' tribulation. Not 'a' tribulation.

Nero was feeding Christians to lions for entertainment. He tried to boil John alive in oil.

However this is not a reference to the great tribulation that has not been since the beginning of the world, nor shall ever be.
Yet John and his companions suffered for the SAME things as the martyrs in Revelation 20 which you would say is about the great tribulation.

John and his companions:

I, John, both your brother and companion in THE tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The martyrs of Revelation 20:

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It looks like the SAME tribulation to me. They all suffered for "the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." If John and his companions were not in the great tribuation, then neither were the martyrs in chapter 20. It's that simple. :)
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

Cast out does not mean cast down to the earth.
Then what does it mean? Paul told the saints at Rome that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet SHORTLY (Romans 16:20).

I have no doubt John was in a tribulation.
Yet John EXPLICITLY said that he was their partner in 'THE' tribulation. Not 'a' tribulation.

Nero was feeding Christians to lions for entertainment. He tried to boil John alive in oil.

However this is not a reference to the great tribulation that has not been since the beginning of the world, nor shall ever be.
Yet John and his companions suffered for the SAME things as the martyrs in Revelation 20 which you would say is about the great tribulation.

John and his companions:

I, John, both your brother and companion in THE tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The martyrs of Revelation 20:

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It looks like the SAME tribulation to me. They all suffered for "the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." If John and his companions were not in the great tribuation, then neither were the martyrs in chapter 20. It's that simple. :)

It is simple.

The technology for a "mark" that controls a persons ability to buy and sell is just not coming on the scene.

The Great tribulation will eclipse all other tribulations both in scope as well as severity.

The great tribulation is also associated with the end of the age.

The Abomination of desolation is an event that comes after 70 AD, yet is associated with a temple and sacrifices.

The AOD is the trigger for the great tribulation.

JLB
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

Then what does it mean? Paul told the saints at Rome that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet SHORTLY (Romans 16:20).

Yet John EXPLICITLY said that he was their partner in 'THE' tribulation. Not 'a' tribulation.

Nero was feeding Christians to lions for entertainment. He tried to boil John alive in oil.

However this is not a reference to the great tribulation that has not been since the beginning of the world, nor shall ever be.
Yet John and his companions suffered for the SAME things as the martyrs in Revelation 20 which you would say is about the great tribulation.

John and his companions:

I, John, both your brother and companion in THE tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The martyrs of Revelation 20:

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It looks like the SAME tribulation to me. They all suffered for "the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." If John and his companions were not in the great tribuation, then neither were the martyrs in chapter 20. It's that simple. :)

It is simple.

The technology for a "mark" that controls a persons ability to buy and sell is just not coming on the scene.

The Great tribulation will eclipse all other tribulations both in scope as well as severity.

The great tribulation is also associated with the end of the age.

The Abomination of desolation is an event that comes after 70 AD, yet is associated with a temple and sacrifices.

The AOD is the trigger for the great tribulation.

JLB
It's simple! The book of Revelation claims to be symbolic from verse 1. It claims that the things John saw were to "SHORTLY come to pass" for the "time is NEAR." Ezekiel also was told to put a mark upon the foreheads of the Babylonain exiles. Yet I don't see anyone saying that it was literal.

Jesus told His disciples that THEY would be in the tribulation. Simple! There is NO difference in the sufferings of John and his companions in 1:9 with the martyrs of chapter 20.
 
Re: About how many here hold some preterism views?

s simple! The book of Revelation claims to be symbolic from verse 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John. Revelation 1:1

He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John...

Signified - Strong's Number: 4591


Definition
  1. to give a sign, to signify, indicate
  2. to make known
You are implying a meaning of hidden or unknown, when signified means to make known.

He sent and made it known by His angel to His servant John...

He sent and conveyed a message by His angel to His servant John.

Example -

8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

This makes known who Jesus is. This statement reveals the truth of who Jesus is.

This message was to convey the truth who the church under John was dying for in that day.

Not just a good man, or a prophet, but it conveyed to them and made known to them that Jesus was and is the Almighty.

The book of Revelation is just that, it reveals or uncovers that which is hidden. It reveals who Jesus is.


JLB
 
See my post on the word "signified." http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=53551&p=838013&highlight=#post838013

Quote from Herschell H. Hobbs:

The method employed in the Revelation is seen in the word "signified." This translates the Greek verb semaino, meaning to show in signs or symbols....

It employs symbols to those who read with understanding. But it also CONCEALS the message from those outside the Christian fellowship....

The aorist form of "signified" sums up the whole method of revelation in the book. We cannot say that some things are symbols and some are literal. If one part is literal, all parts are literal. THE VERB FORM SAYS THAT ALL PARTS ARE SYMBOLIC.

The Cosmic Drama pages 24-25

Please note that Agabus prophesied that there would be a world wide famine (Acts 11:27-29). Luke says that it came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Luke says that Agabus "signified" it. This means that the world could not understand his speech. Prophets came with Agabus to explain it to Christians so they could prepare for it and not suffer hunger themselves. The unbelieving world had no idea what Agabus was speaking about because he had "signified" it making it necessary that it be explained by the prophets.

Likewise, only the Christians living in John's time could understand the visions because they were "signified" to hide the meaning from their enemies. Unless you are a prophet or an angel, you CANNOT know what the symbols in the Revelation meant to them. All sorts of ridiculous speculations and false predictions have come as the result of those who claim they understand it. Only the Christians then living could undertand because the seven churches had angels who delivered the explanation to them.

Bed time
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