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About how many here hold some preterism views? - Part 2

Lloyd

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I find it stange that all was fulfilled in 70AD - all that symbolic imagery found in Revelation, written for the same people who thought the leven of the pharisees was a loaf of bread :chin

And I agree with JLB - all this temple age, mosiac age that people use, completely unbiblical waffle.
 

reba

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Should the moderators be on look out for use of any words not found in the Scriptures?

If so which translation should be used?


And the references for rapture is what?
 

jasoncran

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leaven is what is used to make bread its aka yeast, that is from the connation of the Passover. the bread was to be unleavened. it was symbolic of these things:
1) christs purity
2) that the Hebrews were in haste to leave Egypt and didn't have time to put yeast in the bread
 

Rev33

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How is a third part of the sun smitten, so that only a third part is darkened, but also that there is no day for a third of it?
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
So by "immediately" does the author mean immediately in Gods time or human time...If 1000 years are as a day to God, immediately must be like 1/100th of a day in Gods time... so immediately = 10 years or so? or would immediately in Gods time = 1/1000th of a day? which means immediately would equal 1 Human year, yes?

This is a world wide event, whereby all the people on earth will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds, just as the angels who were present and told the Apostles when He left.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11


JLB
Just to clarify, are you suggesting the ascension was a world wide visible event that every eye saw? you seem to be saying that Like manner means EXACT IN EVERY DETAIL. care to be more specific?
 
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JLB

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How is a third part of the sun smitten, so that only a third part is darkened, but also that there is no day for a third of it?
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
So by "immediately" does the author mean immediately in Gods time or human time...If 1000 years are as a day to God, immediately must be like 1/100th of a day in Gods time... so immediately = 10 years or so? or would immediately in Gods time = 1/1000th of a day? which means immediately would equal 1 Human year, yes?

This is a world wide event, whereby all the people on earth will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds, just as the angels who were present and told the Apostles when He left.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11


JLB
Just to clarify, are you suggesting the ascension was a world wide visible event that every eye saw? you seem to be saying that Like manner means EXACT IN EVERY DETAIL. care to be more specific?
Everybody who was there with Him witnessed Him leave in the clouds.

This is described in Acts 1:9-11

His return at the end of the age is described that every eye will see Him.

Just like He said.

JLB
 

Rev33

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Everybody who was there with Him witnessed Him leave in the clouds. This is described in Acts 1:9-11 His return at the end of the age is described that every eye will see Him. Just like He said.

So you are saying His return wont be exactly like the manner in which He left then? just kinda similar?
 

Sinthesis

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Except it is not that simple, because there is more than one way to define His coming, both first and second. Relatively is not just for physics, but just like in physics, it can seem counterintuitive at first.
Just chapter and verse please.
Mat 15:24
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


This is supposed to prove Jesus came in 70 AD?


JLB
No, it points out that there are ways to qualify Jesus' coming.

Here, in Jesus' own words, we see that in His first coming He wasn't sent to Gentiles. In the same way, and within this particular context, we can understand that His second coming in judgement should also be limited to Jews, and that is what happened circa 70AD. Yet this only makes sense when you understand the limits of the particular context, which is why it is so difficult to accept when one won't acknowledge other qualified points of view.

That said, with the Jewish/Gentile distinction no longer valid, and knowing that Jesus has in fact come to the rest of the world, we now await a second coming. This second coming can be different because the frame of reference is different. I said it could seem counterintuitive, but the only universal frame of reference belongs to God, and is beyond us.
 

JLB

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Mat 15:24
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


This is supposed to prove Jesus came in 70 AD?


JLB
No, it points out that there are ways to qualify Jesus' coming.

Here, in Jesus' own words, we see that in His first coming He wasn't sent to Gentiles. In the same way, and within this particular context, we can understand that His second coming in judgement should also be limited to Jews, and that is what happened circa 70AD. Yet this only makes sense when you understand the limits of the particular context, which is why it is so difficult to accept when one won't acknowledge other qualified points of view.

That said, with the Jewish/Gentile distinction no longer valid, and knowing that Jesus has in fact come to the rest of the world, we now await a second coming. This second coming can be different because the frame of reference is different. I said it could seem counterintuitive, but the only universal frame of reference belongs to God, and is beyond us.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

... and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

ALL the tribes of the earth will see Jesus coming in the clouds...

Every eye will see Him!

The word of God is directly opposed to the doctrine of Preterism.


JLB
 

Sinthesis

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Mat 15:24
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


This is supposed to prove Jesus came in 70 AD?


JLB
No, it points out that there are ways to qualify Jesus' coming.

Here, in Jesus' own words, we see that in His first coming He wasn't sent to Gentiles. In the same way, and within this particular context, we can understand that His second coming in judgement should also be limited to Jews, and that is what happened circa 70AD. Yet this only makes sense when you understand the limits of the particular context, which is why it is so difficult to accept when one won't acknowledge other qualified points of view.

That said, with the Jewish/Gentile distinction no longer valid, and knowing that Jesus has in fact come to the rest of the world, we now await a second coming. This second coming can be different because the frame of reference is different. I said it could seem counterintuitive, but the only universal frame of reference belongs to God, and is beyond us.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

... and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

ALL the tribes of the earth will see Jesus coming in the clouds...

Every eye will see Him!

The word of God is directly opposed to the doctrine of Preterism.


JLB
Why wouldn't the tribes of the earth mourn over the devastation the Romans inflicted on them? Ever since then, Judaism has floundered while Christianity is now the most powerful and glorious faith on the planet. And all Jews now know of Jesus and His church, even the physically blind ones.
 

JLB

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No, it points out that there are ways to qualify Jesus' coming.

Here, in Jesus' own words, we see that in His first coming He wasn't sent to Gentiles. In the same way, and within this particular context, we can understand that His second coming in judgement should also be limited to Jews, and that is what happened circa 70AD. Yet this only makes sense when you understand the limits of the particular context, which is why it is so difficult to accept when one won't acknowledge other qualified points of view.

That said, with the Jewish/Gentile distinction no longer valid, and knowing that Jesus has in fact come to the rest of the world, we now await a second coming. This second coming can be different because the frame of reference is different. I said it could seem counterintuitive, but the only universal frame of reference belongs to God, and is beyond us.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

... and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

ALL the tribes of the earth will see Jesus coming in the clouds...

Every eye will see Him!

The word of God is directly opposed to the doctrine of Preterism.


JLB
Why wouldn't the tribes of the earth mourn over the devastation the Romans inflicted on them? Ever since then, Judaism has floundered while Christianity is now the most powerful and glorious faith on the planet. And all Jews now know of Jesus and His church, even the physically blind ones.

When Jesus returns to restore all things at the end of the age, every eye will see Him.



JLB
 

Sinthesis

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No, it points out that there are ways to qualify Jesus' coming.

Here, in Jesus' own words, we see that in His first coming He wasn't sent to Gentiles. In the same way, and within this particular context, we can understand that His second coming in judgement should also be limited to Jews, and that is what happened circa 70AD. Yet this only makes sense when you understand the limits of the particular context, which is why it is so difficult to accept when one won't acknowledge other qualified points of view.

That said, with the Jewish/Gentile distinction no longer valid, and knowing that Jesus has in fact come to the rest of the world, we now await a second coming. This second coming can be different because the frame of reference is different. I said it could seem counterintuitive, but the only universal frame of reference belongs to God, and is beyond us.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

... and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

ALL the tribes of the earth will see Jesus coming in the clouds...

Every eye will see Him!

The word of God is directly opposed to the doctrine of Preterism.


JLB
Why wouldn't the tribes of the earth mourn over the devastation the Romans inflicted on them? Ever since then, Judaism has floundered while Christianity is now the most powerful and glorious faith on the planet. And all Jews now know of Jesus and His church, even the physically blind ones.

When Jesus returns to restore all things at the end of the age, every eye will see Him.



JLB
What about people who don't have eyes? That passage is talking about the knowledge of Jesus, not physical sight. Remember; spiritual, not carnal.
 

JLB

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Why wouldn't the tribes of the earth mourn over the devastation the Romans inflicted on them? Ever since then, Judaism has floundered while Christianity is now the most powerful and glorious faith on the planet. And all Jews now know of Jesus and His church, even the physically blind ones.

When Jesus returns to restore all things at the end of the age, every eye will see Him.



JLB
What about people who don't have eyes? That passage is talking about the knowledge of Jesus, not physical sight. Remember; spiritual, not carnal.
All the tribes of the earth will morn, for they will see Him Coming in the clouds with power and great glory.

and again -

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The brightness of His Coming will be seen by every eye.


JLB
 

Rev33

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The brightness of His Coming will be seen by every eye.
The same was God's actual Physical ARM was "seen by every Eye" in OT times?

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 52:10
Jehovah hath made bare his holy arm IN THE EYES OF ALL NATIONS;

[/FONT]
 

JLB

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No, it points out that there are ways to qualify Jesus' coming.

Here, in Jesus' own words, we see that in His first coming He wasn't sent to Gentiles. In the same way, and within this particular context, we can understand that His second coming in judgement should also be limited to Jews, and that is what happened circa 70AD. Yet this only makes sense when you understand the limits of the particular context, which is why it is so difficult to accept when one won't acknowledge other qualified points of view.

That said, with the Jewish/Gentile distinction no longer valid, and knowing that Jesus has in fact come to the rest of the world, we now await a second coming. This second coming can be different because the frame of reference is different. I said it could seem counterintuitive, but the only universal frame of reference belongs to God, and is beyond us.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

... and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

ALL the tribes of the earth will see Jesus coming in the clouds...

Every eye will see Him!

The word of God is directly opposed to the doctrine of Preterism.


JLB
Why wouldn't the tribes of the earth mourn over the devastation the Romans inflicted on them? Ever since then, Judaism has floundered while Christianity is now the most powerful and glorious faith on the planet. And all Jews now know of Jesus and His church, even the physically blind ones.
The tribes or families of the earth includes everyone.

The result of the mourning is from seeing the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This event has nothing to do with the Romans and the Temple.


JLB
 

Sinthesis

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No, it points out that there are ways to qualify Jesus' coming.

Here, in Jesus' own words, we see that in His first coming He wasn't sent to Gentiles. In the same way, and within this particular context, we can understand that His second coming in judgement should also be limited to Jews, and that is what happened circa 70AD. Yet this only makes sense when you understand the limits of the particular context, which is why it is so difficult to accept when one won't acknowledge other qualified points of view.

That said, with the Jewish/Gentile distinction no longer valid, and knowing that Jesus has in fact come to the rest of the world, we now await a second coming. This second coming can be different because the frame of reference is different. I said it could seem counterintuitive, but the only universal frame of reference belongs to God, and is beyond us.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

... and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

ALL the tribes of the earth will see Jesus coming in the clouds...

Every eye will see Him!

The word of God is directly opposed to the doctrine of Preterism.


JLB
Why wouldn't the tribes of the earth mourn over the devastation the Romans inflicted on them? Ever since then, Judaism has floundered while Christianity is now the most powerful and glorious faith on the planet. And all Jews now know of Jesus and His church, even the physically blind ones.
The tribes or families of the earth includes everyone.

The result of the mourning is from seeing the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This event has nothing to do with the Romans and the Temple.


JLB
Why would a Christian mourn at the coming of the Son of Man?
 

JLB

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Why wouldn't the tribes of the earth mourn over the devastation the Romans inflicted on them? Ever since then, Judaism has floundered while Christianity is now the most powerful and glorious faith on the planet. And all Jews now know of Jesus and His church, even the physically blind ones.
The tribes or families of the earth includes everyone.

The result of the mourning is from seeing the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This event has nothing to do with the Romans and the Temple.


JLB
Why would a Christian mourn at the coming of the Son of Man?
Brother, those who alive and remain will be caught up and be with Him, when He is seen by the tribes of the earth.

JLB
 

Sinthesis

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So then the tribes or families of the earth don't include everyone? You should have noticed that the mourning happens before the gathering.:chin
 

JLB

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So then the tribes or families of the earth don't include everyone? You should have noticed that the mourning happens before the gathering.:chin
Look at the same event from Paul's perspective -

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4

Paul defines those who will be alive and experience the reurn of Jesus Christ.

Them and you.

Your either a "them" or a "you" [ewe]

Sudden destruction comes upon them as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.

Labor pains come unexpectedly. They cause the woman to double over with pain and mourn.

The reason there is such a violent reaction is that there is no time for the woman to "brace" or prepare for this unexpected shock wave of pain.

Not so with the children of light that know the signs that Jesus left for us in the scriptures.

They are expecting this event with joy and great expectation.

No reason to mourn.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

By the time the tribes of the earth see the Son of Man, The church will be gone.

In a twinkling of an eye.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


JLB
 

Sinthesis

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Paul is saying that they won't be surprised by what is soon coming, not that they won't be around to witness it. God doesn't need to whisk someone away to protect them. See Daniel 3 and Daniel 6.

Women don't mourn because of labor pains. One only mourns if a birth results in the death of mother or child.

The church can't be gone when the tribes of the earth see the Son of Man because they see Him before the elect are gathered, as the very scripture you've provided proves.
 

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