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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
About how many here hold some preterism views?
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Well?
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Member
I did have a few exchanges with a person who held some of the common preterism views so I have a small understanding but not fully!
I kind of at times find myself in the middle as it were with the timing of Revelation. I was taught for many years that the book was all future but I see it differently now. I believe when Jesus assended to heaven he did open the seals, so that the events fortold could begin to come, and they have been unfolding all these 100's of years since.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake ; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood ; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
I feel that a great spiritual darkness decended upon the earth once the city was destroyed, Jesus was gone(sun) the Jewish way gone (moon) and the new christians killed (stars)
Also I view the beast that assended out of the abyss and killed the two witnesses as Human Empire which could have been destroyed while Jesus was alive because he was the true King if it had been God's time for the Kingdom, but instead the two classes of peoples whom had bore testimony to Jesus Christ were destroyed.
Revelation 11:7 NAS
When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
I feel that this is also shown in this vs with the one head that's fatal wound was healed. When Jesus was here it was like a great death blow to Satans Empires however Jesus left so the wound healed.
I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast ;
Thus I find myself in a funny place, I see much as in the past yet I still look to the future return of Jesus because I'm of the belief that everlasting life on the earth is our gift.
Digging
I kind of at times find myself in the middle as it were with the timing of Revelation. I was taught for many years that the book was all future but I see it differently now. I believe when Jesus assended to heaven he did open the seals, so that the events fortold could begin to come, and they have been unfolding all these 100's of years since.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake ; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood ; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
I feel that a great spiritual darkness decended upon the earth once the city was destroyed, Jesus was gone(sun) the Jewish way gone (moon) and the new christians killed (stars)
Also I view the beast that assended out of the abyss and killed the two witnesses as Human Empire which could have been destroyed while Jesus was alive because he was the true King if it had been God's time for the Kingdom, but instead the two classes of peoples whom had bore testimony to Jesus Christ were destroyed.
Revelation 11:7 NAS
When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
I feel that this is also shown in this vs with the one head that's fatal wound was healed. When Jesus was here it was like a great death blow to Satans Empires however Jesus left so the wound healed.
I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast ;
Thus I find myself in a funny place, I see much as in the past yet I still look to the future return of Jesus because I'm of the belief that everlasting life on the earth is our gift.
Digging
How do you see this scripture -
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
Do you think this event is in the past?
Notice verse 1 and verse 8 are both concerned with His Coming.
The Lawless one is destroyed by The Lord Himself.
The brightness of His Coming speaks to me of a very visible event!
Not hidden in any way.
Like every eye will see Him...
JLB
digging
Member
Oh I see this as yet to happen, BUT there is more than one way to understand the term 'every eye will see him'
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables ; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE ;15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
So to with a common preterist point regards the statement Jesus said as you are saying, it will be something seen with the physical eye, I don't think that is the whole message. The unfaithful Jews were brought to their knees when the Romans came, through that act of defeat they were forced to 'see' Jesus truly had been the Son of God whom they had betrayed. They would have comprehended because sight is based on perceiving a contrast. They viewed themselves as favored with God and not Jesus but their destruction showed them Jesus was the favored over them. I believe they didn't see because of faith but because of discipline from God and Jesus knew that was coming for them when he said this.
Matthew 26:64 NAS
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
As I said earlier I believe the earth is where the resurrection takes place so I don't believe such an event could possibly be hidden! However I do see many events still connected to the time of Jesus day.
Digging
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables ; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE ;15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
So to with a common preterist point regards the statement Jesus said as you are saying, it will be something seen with the physical eye, I don't think that is the whole message. The unfaithful Jews were brought to their knees when the Romans came, through that act of defeat they were forced to 'see' Jesus truly had been the Son of God whom they had betrayed. They would have comprehended because sight is based on perceiving a contrast. They viewed themselves as favored with God and not Jesus but their destruction showed them Jesus was the favored over them. I believe they didn't see because of faith but because of discipline from God and Jesus knew that was coming for them when he said this.
Matthew 26:64 NAS
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
As I said earlier I believe the earth is where the resurrection takes place so I don't believe such an event could possibly be hidden! However I do see many events still connected to the time of Jesus day.
Digging
Let's look at this perspective of every eye seeing Him from Jesus' private meeting with His Church Leadership.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30
This is a private meeting with His disciples.
The multitudes, nor the Pharisees are present, so the parable scenario is not applicable in these verses.
They asked Him plainly, what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age, and He answered them plainly with literal signs leading up to His return.
I hope you see this important fact here.
JLB
digging
Member
I'm not saying anything about a private meeting, I believe these vs's are pointing to a deep level of realization that will come to the whole world that even a blind man will be able to 'see'. Something beyond just seeing something with our eyes. The Jews seen many phyical signs and yet never 'seen' Jesus as the Christ.
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Digging
Jesus did not say anything about the physical eye. That would limited the scope to every physical eye.
Jesus every eye.
Every eye refers to those in heaven, those on Earth and those under the Earth.
"Even those who pierced Him" refers to the Jews.
JLB
digging
Member
You are thinking physical eyes, even if you included the angels and demons you are thinking as in the ability to have vision.
I'm not disagreeing that there will be various events that will happen that we could also 'see' but the deeper point is that everyone will comprehend that something very serious is happening, this is the main point, the main way of seeing I believe Jesus is talking about. Just like when a person is in school and the teacher is explaining a math problem and then once the student understands he says 'oh I see it now!'
Digging
I'm not disagreeing that there will be various events that will happen that we could also 'see' but the deeper point is that everyone will comprehend that something very serious is happening, this is the main point, the main way of seeing I believe Jesus is talking about. Just like when a person is in school and the teacher is explaining a math problem and then once the student understands he says 'oh I see it now!'
Digging
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30
Do you believe what Jesus said about all the tribes of the Earth seeing Him in the clouds of heaven?
JLB
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10
They is who will look on Him.
They also refers to those who pierced Him.
They also refers to those who mourn for Him.
None of which refers to Romans, but to the inhabitants [those who live in] Jerusalem.
Look who "mourns" is referring to -
11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
JLB
Rev33
Member
ALL Christians believe at least SOME "Last Days" prophesy was fulfilled in the 1st Century, for scripture records such fulfillment, The Book of Hebrews is a prime example, The Book of Acts records 1st Century "last Days" prophetic fulfillment as well....
Therefore, ALL Christians are preterist, we only vary by degree.
You mean some Preterists are Christian, for the term Christian was long before preterist.
JLB
Sinthesis
Member
Peter understood that a last days prophecy of Joel was at least partially fulfilled years before the term 'Christian' was used.
Act 2:14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 - For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 - But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 - And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 - And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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Act 11:26 - And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Act 2:15 - For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 - But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 - And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 - And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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Act 11:26 - And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Yes, and at least you say "partially fulfilled".
And Jesus as well understood a last days prophecy that was partially fulfilled -
17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: 18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." 20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. Luke 4:17-20
JLB
Deborah13
Member
Yes, he understood that the prophecy was fulfilled but he really didn't understand the full details of that prophecy, it appears.
He was very surprised that the "all flesh" and the "whosoever" were not just the Jews.
When I think of this being Peter the man who walked on water, even just for a second or two maybe, didn't always understand, I wonder at how much I must be missing in the simplest of teachings.
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