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[_ Old Earth _] Age Dating

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ThinkerMan

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Probably one of the most common arguments of YEC's is that scientific dating methods are unreliable, and that we have no way to know the age of anything.

Now, outside any theological arguments (like god creating an "old" earth 6,000 years ago, 12,000 years ago, etc), I have a request.

Can those of you that hold to this belief about the uncertainity of scientific dating do the following:

1. Explain how scientific dating works (in general or specific)
2. What is wrong/scientifically invalid/errant in the process you describe

On other words, tell me how I would go about dating an object, and what I did wrong that proves the process invalid.
 
this is from an article on my website.


Assumptions, Assumptions…




There are starting assumptions when it comes to solving the age of the earth. The starting assumptions of the old and young earth models actually help determine how data is interpreted. I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that neither model is provable. The creation was not observed and is not testable and really falls outside of the realm of science. What is left then, to try and determine the earth’s age is to make predictions based upon your assumptions and interpret the data to see if it fits your theory. At that point, the data is analyzed.

Let us examine the assumptions that go along with dating processes. Typically, the dating methods are a four step process. First, the rock or system to be dated must be observed in its present state. Second, the rate of a process operating within that system must be measured. These steps are scientific. The third step in the dating method is for a scientist to make assumptions about the past history of the rock or system. Lastly, it is calculated how long the present process would take to produce the present things in that system. The last two steps of the dating method are not scientific. They rely on assumptions to reconstruct the unobserved past. Dating methods are driven by uniformitarianism. This is the belief that there have been no major changes in rates or character of processes that we observe today. In other words, “the present is the key to the past.†Take for example tree ring dating. Though tree ring dating may be fairly accurate, this method still works on uniformitarian assumptions. The actual date of a tree can be different than what the number of rings would lead you to believe. For instance, draught, disease, heat, cold, and wet conditions can effect the formation of tree rings.

In radioisotope dating, there are key assumptions used. The first assumption is that there has always been a constant rate of decay. The second assumption is that there has been no loss or gain to the parent or daughter. The third assumption is that there were known amounts of daughter present at the start. Keep in mind that these three assumptions cannot be proven to be realistic assumptions because the distant past was unobserved and we cannot go back in time to verify whether rates and amounts were the same then as today!

There are many examples of radioisotope dating failing when used to date rocks of known age. In Hawaii, Hanalei Volcano is known to have erupted 1800-1801. Rocks were dated and yielded results ranging from 140 million years to 2.96 billion years. Sunset Crater in Arizona erupted roughly 900 years ago. The potassium argon dating method gave results of 210,000 and 230,000 years old. These are only two examples of many that could be given to show the inaccuracy of radioisotope dating. So then there is another assumption, rocks dated at a known age shows that dating doesn’t work, yet rocks dated at unknown ages is assumed to work!
 
Totally right again

:angel: You are totally right!!!
Great scripture too!
 
Since I posted I found this excellent website that actually answered my questions about the scientific contentions of YECs.

Anyway, he, a Christian mind you, has some interesting reponses to your contentions. Particularly about the young rocks testing old.

Good site for those interested...

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

I'm interested on what you think of his response to your contentions.[/url]
 
hess, why don't you come up with an original argument.

We can safely say that nuclear decay rates don't change because such changes would be FAR more drastic than a drought or intense heat on a tree's rings. Think the sun exploding or going cold for instance. If such a change had happened the evidence would be highly apparent and would have already ruled out radiometric dating as a usable method.
As for your flacid example about volcanic rock resulting from recent activity it's been long known that volcanic rock, and just in case you bring it up mollusc shells, tend to give bad results because of their nature.
We don't have to make any assumptions about parent or daughter levels in the sample at the beginning, they are unnecessary for radiometric dating to be accurate.
Thinker, you can find plenty of good resources on radiometric dating on the talkorigins website, http://www.talkorigins.org
 
christian evolutionist

:o when you say a christian,what you mean is a christian who believes in evolution. There will be many so called christians who will and already do believe in this fiction based religion. All christians know that already.
It's not a new thing.
there is no method of dating that is able to correctly predict the age of anything,and to try to search out ways of trying to prove God wrong is very unchristian,so it takes nerve and lot of gall to call yourself a christian when you doubt the one you claim you believe in.
Your pagan religion will be part of the one world religion,and by history we know that it won't be long now.
The book of Job can teach you great lessons about dating the earth,ect...
try it,you may like it. :Fade-color
 
Re: christian evolutionist

blueeyeliner said:
:o when you say a christian,what you mean is a christian who believes in evolution. There will be many so called christians who will and already do believe in this fiction based religion. All christians know that already.
It's not a new thing.
there is no method of dating that is able to correctly predict the age of anything,and to try to search out ways of trying to prove God wrong is very unchristian,so it takes nerve and lot of gall to call yourself a christian when you doubt the one you claim you believe in.
Your pagan religion will be part of the one world religion,and by history we know that it won't be long now.
The book of Job can teach you great lessons about dating the earth,ect...
try it,you may like it. :Fade-color

I am a Christian who believe in evolution, and since you are asserting in this post that I am not a real Christian, I'm taking my gloves off. You are a complete and utter moron. Your ignorance and stupidity are evident in every single post you write. You can barely form complete and cognizant sentences. You are the reason negative stereotypes about Christian intelligence persist. You add absolutely nothing to these conversations except fuel for atheists to ridicule us. Please, for both your sake and the sake of all Christians, stop posting your drivel.
 
Re: christian evolutionist

Thanks for your help in proving my point!
If you don't know yet,soon there won't be any atheists left.
the antichrist and the devil will see to it.
I am not worried about atheists,remember,I take the bible literally.
Some claim Moses had a speech problem.
:Fade-color
 
Great it's TabloidMike Mk 2. :roll:

BEL, you are teleologically, eschatologically, politically, aerodynamically and epistimologically incorrect.
 
Re: christian evolutionist

blueeyeliner said:
Thanks for your help in proving my point!
If you don't know yet,soon there won't be any atheists left.
the antichrist and the devil will see to it.
I am not worried about atheists,remember,I take the bible literally.
Some claim Moses had a speech problem.
:Fade-color

So, is it really worse to call a Christian stupid than to call a Christian a non-believer? I was very rude about it, but I spoke the truth. It is condemning and hateful to go around saying people who do not believe exactly as you do lack salvation. I have accepted Christ into my life and am born again just as you are.

The only difference between me and you is that I accept that God wants us to observe his creation with our senses to observe the Truth, in addition to the Truth in the Bible. Romans proclaims that creation itself is all anyone needs to know God exists, and I agree. And all scientific observations, made by tens of thousands of scientists, many of them Christian, confirm that the universe is very old. There is a book by Lee Strobel out in book stores called the Case for the Creator. Lee interviews prominent scientists in a number of disciplines who also are Christians. From the evolutionist, to the astronomer, to the physicist, to the information specist, to everyone used evidence and spoke freely of the Earth being billions of years old. They did deny evolution, but the denial used evidence that was ancient.

These men are Christians who are among the elite in their scientific discipline. They know what they're talking about, and they don't take the creation account literally. I think it is outrageously prideful for you to be bold enough to say these men aren't Christians.
 
I cannot speak to anyone's salvation, but in my experience with christians who believe in evolution, they compromise or don't believe other essential christian doctrines. Doctrines such as the virgin birth, literal second coming, literal hell, some even cast doubts upon the fact that Christ bodily rose from the dead. (i don't mean to imply that cubedbee doesn't hold to essential christian doctrines)
All i'm saying is that when you open the door for compromise on the very first page of the Bible, what's next? Why even compromise a perfectly good Bible and slander the very character of God for a silly theory like evolution?
 
Because the 'silly theory' is based on millions of bits of scientific data. I am not prideful enough that I need to deny the reality of what can be observed with the human senses in order to hold to a preconceived intepretation of the scriptures. God transmits truth through allegory. At one time people may have believed the first couple of chapters to be literal, but we know have more knowledge of our universe and can see that this is not so. This doesn't change the truths found in the stories though. God is the creator and he is the author of all that we see around us. Man did fall and the penalty of this fall was death, of the spiritual kind. We do need God's salvation because we are all sinful as a result of the actions of the first man.

I used to belive in young earth creationism, but my knowledge of science has convinced me otherwise. I personally believe God created the world billions of years ago, and guided the process of the development of life. I also believe that man descended from apes. However, I believe that God took our ancestor, simply an animal, and imbued it with human soul and conciousness. We were thus spiritually created in the image of God. I could easily be wrong, and if a mechanism arises which describes the fossil and biological evidence better than evolution, I will change my belief.

For the record, I believe in the virgin birth, a literal second coming, a literal hell, and a bodily resurrection
 
ThinkerMan said:
1. Explain how scientific dating works (in general or specific)

Your point is what? If we can not explain, or even if we do not understand how "scientific dating works", then we should just blindly accept it. Even though we know this is a man made process and that no one has presented any evidence to us that would show "scientific dating" is relyable in any way, shape or forum?
 
Your point is what? If we can not explain, or even if we do not understand how "scientific dating works", then we should just blindly accept it.

If you don't understand it, you shouldn't have any opinion on it at all.

Even though we know this is a man made process and that no one has presented any evidence to us that would show "scientific dating" is relyable in any way, shape or forum?

Not long ago, Argon/Argon dating was used to check the date of the eruption that buried Pompeii. It was very accurate.

There are, of course ways to mess it up; entire textbooks are written on the methods necessary to be sure that the analysis is accurate. But that's true of any highly technical analysis.

Here's a site to learn about it.
 
The Barbarian said:
If you don't understand it, you shouldn't have any opinion on it at all.

I don't have any opinion on it at all. I am pretty sure the earth is older than !2,000 years, but other than that, I have no idea how old the earth is. If everything is consistant, I can go along with the date that science provides, but we have know way of knowing if everything has been consistant from the beginning. The only thing constant about hubbles constant, is that they are constantly changing it.
 
JohnR7, I thought I did a good job explaining the Hubble constant(not really a constant but a parameter[this means it changes according to some rules of its own, though these are not understood as of yet]). I was looking at the science that the site was using and I came to the conclusion looking at the way that they go about attacking science that they really don't understand what they're talking about.
 
The Barbarian said:
You do know that "Hubble's constant" has nothing at all to do with the age of the Earth, don't you?

Translation: "You do know that the age of the universe has nothing to do with the age of the earth". Except that the earth can not be older than the universe. I am beginning to believe in a ageless universe, that has always been and always well be. So if the earth was not around in some form, when the universe began to expand, then perhaps you could explain how something came from nothing?
 
mhess13 said:
Typically, the dating methods are a four step process. First, the rock or system to be dated must be observed in its present state. Second, the rate of a process operating within that system must be measured. These steps are scientific. The third step in the dating method is for a scientist to make assumptions about the past history of the rock or system. Lastly, it is calculated how long the present process would take to produce the present things in that system.

The problem here of course is that scientists have to make assumptions. Out in the real world, we know that assumptions is the mother of error.
 
Re: christian evolutionist

blueeyeliner said:
:o when you say a christian,what you mean is a christian who believes in evolution. There will be many so called christians who will and already do believe in this fiction based religion. All christians know that already.
It's not a new thing.
there is no method of dating that is able to correctly predict the age of anything,and to try to search out ways of trying to prove God wrong is very unchristian,so it takes nerve and lot of gall to call yourself a christian when you doubt the one you claim you believe in.
Your pagan religion will be part of the one world religion,and by history we know that it won't be long now.
The book of Job can teach you great lessons about dating the earth,ect...
try it,you may like it. :Fade-color

Wow, ignorance and arrogance are a real turn off for me. Could it be possible that YOUR interpretation of Genesis is NOT in tune with God's?
 
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